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OfflineLuke
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Psychedelic Zen
    #4497543 - 08/05/05 01:06 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

What do you think of using drugs in a Zen fashion? I think we can attain Zen while on drugs. There is a change in well water. They are simply tools for modeling the consciousness. Lets forget all the anti-drug thoughts of Buddhism for a bit. Lets see Buddhism as in the act of embracing drugs as tools. We can find profound realization in the drug experience.

Note : My Japanese friend (Yutaka) who became a monk for a year. He has past history with shrooms and cannabis. He says he doesnt wanna use drugs again. But his past experience with drugs has changed him. He can go back there without drugs. So the drugs were a tool in his concsciousness development.

Ped, I am counting on you this time on debating. Ped what do you think about drugs (shrooms, weed)? Have they got you into higher states of consciousness? Esspecially shrooms.


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Onlinedeff
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Re: Psychedelic Zen [Re: Luke]
    #4498425 - 08/05/05 03:23 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I don't think anything about it

:wink:


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Psychedelic Zen [Re: deff]
    #4498522 - 08/05/05 03:36 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Discordianism is supposed to be like 'Psychedelic Zen'
I don't know enough about Zen to say whether it is or not, but I'm a big fan!

"It's hard to nail down Discordians - which figures, since they're dedicated to the sowing of Discord, generally of the mental kind. They don't damage the physical world much in worship of sexy ol' Eris, Goddess of Chaos. Discordians all work, I mean play, in their spare time, on Operation Mindfuck - an insidious yet disorganized attempt to tear down your old mental paradigms without offering anything with which to replace them. Techniques include everything from elaborate pranks, to . . .well, simple pranks. Sort of a Zen version of the Merry Pranksters."
~ ~ Reverend Ivan Stang, 'High Weirdness By Mail' (Fireside Books, 1988).


--------------------
PsyPost - Psychedelic Research


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Psychedelic Zen [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #4498686 - 08/05/05 04:15 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

what about being christian only on sunday?


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Onlinedeff
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Re: Psychedelic Zen [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4498694 - 08/05/05 04:17 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

what about - "we could all be elves"

think about it! <:D


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Psychedelic Zen [Re: Luke]
    #4499003 - 08/05/05 08:51 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Somehow I think we have explored this topic before.  Maybe I just imagined it though. Carry on. :yawn:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineGamera
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Re: Psychedelic Zen [Re: Icelander]
    #4499389 - 08/05/05 12:22 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

There's a great book on the subject:

Zig Zag Zen


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Money is human happiness in the abstract; he, then, who is no longer capable of enjoying human happiness in the concrete devotes himself utterly to money.

Arthur Schopenhauer


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OfflinePedM
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Re: Psychedelic Zen [Re: Gamera]
    #4499766 - 08/05/05 02:06 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

>> Ped, I am counting on you this time on debating

I thought you had decided that your "teachings" were wasted on me, and that I was a hopeless cause?


>> Ped what do you think about drugs (shrooms, weed)? Have they got you into higher states of consciousness?

Mushrooms, LSD, marijuana, all of these have impacted my conciousness in ways that led to a more open, broader state of mind for the duration of the experience. There has been intense and joyful introspection, feelings of understanding and contentment, feelings of "liberation", in the sense that life's mundane troubles seemed left behind with the insignificance of the ordinary world. I would call these "higher" states of conciousness only in that they were much more peaceful and wise than the more familiar baseline.

But the fact remains that I was on drugs, and that within days of the experience coming to an end I always arrived at square one: confused, self-centred, immature, ignorant. The reason I always ended up the way I was before taking the drugs was that I had not developed the discipline which leads to the insights afforded to me by psychedelics. Because of this, those insights eventually slipped away. Without mental discipline, those new ways of thinking and perceiving were volatile and extremely vulnerable to the more negative states habituated in me since the beginning of this lifetime and before.

Granted, doors had been opened which showed me the tremendous possibilities achievable with the mind in one lifetime, doors which unlocked potential in my life that would have otherwise gone completely unrealized, but without the drugs I was completely in the dark as to how to bring those "higher" states of conciousness into every day living.

And that's where religion came in. Shortly after those psychedelic experiences, literature became avaliable to me which described the state of liberation, the state of enlightenment, in ways which very much resembled the experiences I had with psychedelic drugs. The same broadness of perspective was described, the same feelings of compassion and understanding, of unpreturbable contentment; all of it resonated in me with great meaning, and there arose necessarily a great desire to actualize it. What's more is that the literature not only contained descriptions of the states of liberation and enlightenment, it also contained instructions detailing how one is to arrive there -- permanently.

That literature was Buddhist literature, and after much reading and side-by-side study with more learned Buddhists, including monks and their teachers, I developed a feeling of faith in the Dharma and the Sangha which follows it, and decided that the Buddhist path was the path I wanted to follow in life. Part of that path includes abstinance from the psychedelic drugs which impacted me toward Buddhism in the first place. There is no contradiction here -- speaking spiritually, psychedelic drugs for me have served their spiritual purpose, and I have moved on from that period of my life.

It's true that the states of mind achieved with psychedelic drugs seem to resemble quite closely the states of mind achievable with mental discipline. There is definitely a connection there, and for the purpose of exploring more liberated states of being, psychedelic drugs have a valuable role. But for realizing those states permanently and completely, one has to rely solely on his or her own efforts.


--------------------


:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Psychedelic Zen [Re: Ped]
    #4499902 - 08/05/05 02:43 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

But the fact remains that I was on drugs, and that within days of the experience coming to an end I always arrived at square one: confused, self-centred, immature, ignorant. The reason I always ended up the way I was before taking the drugs was that I had not developed the discipline which leads to the insights afforded to me by psychedelics

____________________________________________________________
This is interesting. I think it may be a manner of application of psychedelics rather than their effectiveness. Remember you had little or no tradition to use to maximise the effect of you psychedelic experience. With Buddhism you do.

I have a wonderful friend who after undergoing detox for crank and coke addiction, found Terrance McKennas book and decided to try the committed dose of psychedelics; as his life still seemed lost even after getting clean.  His technique was to drive into the Redwoods at night and park somewhere he had never been and start eating shrooms as he walked into the forest.  He experienced amazing opening and then would close back down after returning. But (according to him) he was not quite as closed down.  So he did it again adding 1/2 gram each time. Each time the same happened but he would be just a little more open. He developed the awarness to notice when he was starting to close up and would go out and do it again. The tales of his experiences out there are truly wild. He ended up going over 10 grams I believe. On the 8th trip he told me he never closed down after comming back. I have known him three years and I believe him. He is my best male friend and was a mentor for awhile.

I believe the Shamanic path is capable of leading to awakening. I will find out and let you know. :grin:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Psychedelic Zen [Re: Luke]
    #4499986 - 08/05/05 03:03 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Note : My Japanese friend (Yutaka) who became a monk for a year. He has past history with shrooms and cannabis. He says he doesnt wanna use drugs again. But his past experience with drugs has changed him. He can go back there without drugs. So the drugs were a tool in his concsciousness development.




:grin: :thumbup:
:heartpump:


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--------------------
Disclaimer!?


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OfflineLuke
thought

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Re: Psychedelic Zen [Re: Ped]
    #4500320 - 08/05/05 04:02 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Ped said:
>> Ped, I am counting on you this time on debating

I thought you had decided that your "teachings" were wasted on me, and that I was a hopeless cause?





I was very wrong. It was my ignorance and aggorance. Forgive me. You are a very hopeful cause. You are a very wise woman.

It was past time you were not as open minded towards the use of intoxicants. You stated that you tend to agree with Ven Chodron and that they impaired spiritual growth. That is mainly why I lost hope.

But seeing the new look you have towards intoxicants is very delighting for me. So all hope is back.

I understand the path of moksha (liberation) while on intoxicants.
The only attachment you have left is the dissatisfaction of what drugs have done. You say with time you are left immature again. But this is wrong, overall these drugs have made you more mindful.

They have left you higher forever. Just like meditation sober, you will feel dissatisfied after awhile. Because Zen is always looking for the now. Not the future or the past.

You still can easily access those higher states of consciousness just by thinking about that higher state. Just keep reminding yourself of that you gained a form of moksha through it.

Older reincarnations have an affinity for drug use and the positive effects that they have on their path. It is an important part of moksha in the Dharma wheel. So must embrace the (moksha) liberation that drugs have taught you.

Just see drugs as teachers. There are teachers everywhere and can be saught in everything. They are not always found in people but experiences also. There is even a teacher within you. There is the omni-teacher that governs all teachers. The omni-teacher is referred as the Tao by many.

Drugs are both teachers and tools. So rejoyce that drugs are here for us. Always remember what the teacher has been teaching.

Ped never let dissatisfaction take the best of you.

"The Zen master notices there are trees around him before he notices there are baby trees which he thought were plants beside him".


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OfflinePedM
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Re: Psychedelic Zen [Re: Luke]
    #4500384 - 08/05/05 04:16 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

> You are a very wise woman.

My friend, I am a man.  :lol:


>> It was past time you were not as open minded towards the use of intoxicants. You stated that you tend to agree with Ven Chodron and that they impaired spiritual growth. That is mainly why I lost hope.

In fact I stated that I agree with Ven Chodron in that the use of intoxicants is not helpful for those devoted wholly to the Tibetan Buddhist path.


>> They have left you higher forever. Just like meditation sober, you will feel dissatisfied after awhile. Because Zen is always looking for the now. Not the future or the past.

This is a very interesting and valuable point of view.


--------------------


:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Psychedelic Zen [Re: Ped]
    #4500412 - 08/05/05 04:24 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

religions need sober supporters; it is inappropriate for them to indulge drug users in any public forum.

there really can be no other way to put it.

what you learn about joy, and your path is personal.
leave the religions out of the loop when it comes to support related to intoxicants.

imagine the impact on future seekers if that mandate is violated.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Psychedelic Zen [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4500420 - 08/05/05 04:27 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

religions need sober supporters; it is inappropriate for them to indulge drug users in any public forum.
______________________________________________________

Why?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineLuke
thought

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Re: Psychedelic Zen [Re: Ped]
    #4500532 - 08/05/05 05:07 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Ped said:
> You are a very wise woman.

My friend, I am a man.  :lol:





Oh, I am very sorry. Just one of those karmic mix ups. I thought you were a woman because of the Tara avatar.


Edited by Luke (08/05/05 05:30 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Psychedelic Zen [Re: Luke]
    #4500576 - 08/05/05 05:19 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Boy were you wrong. This guy has got ladies all over the place. :grin:
We all should be so lucky.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Psychedelic Zen [Re: Luke]
    #4500588 - 08/05/05 05:25 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Alan Watts wrote ALOT about this, so I would seriously suggest going to your library and checking him out.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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OfflineLuke
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Re: Psychedelic Zen [Re: Ped]
    #4500745 - 08/05/05 06:16 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Ped said:
>> They have left you higher forever. Just like meditation sober, you will feel dissatisfied after awhile. Because Zen is always looking for the now. Not the future or the past.

This is a very interesting and valuable point of view.




Take a big dose you feel crystal consciousness. Expanded like a falling tear drop. Just this shering joy. Those big doses will blow your mind up forever. Make you look like your crazy. Travel to other worlds. I swear its like im tripping after all this talking. I am sober today.

Rehashing all that positive energy was really good for me.

Ps. Who cares what Ven thinks about drugs, she dont know bullshit, seriously. Anti-drug people are narrow minded to begin with.
People who have dosed have gone farther then Ven or any Lama any day.
Like I mean left choking dust. People who havent dosed will get no where in meditation.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Psychedelic Zen [Re: Icelander]
    #4500843 - 08/05/05 06:51 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
religions need sober supporters; it is inappropriate for them to indulge drug users in any public forum.
______________________________________________________

Why?



the sober supporters who pay for the building, publications, the food and the services would be outraged!
they work hard, live clean, and care that their temples will be a sanctuary for their kind. they trust their spiritual leaders to be consistent to the declared vows against inebriants - it is in right livelihood etc.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Psychedelic Zen [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4500967 - 08/05/05 07:28 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Wow. Reminds me very much of the religion I grew up in.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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