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OfflineProsgeopax
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Can you be arrested for expressing an argument against war?
    #4494291 - 08/04/05 11:31 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

It seems by the wording of this law that priests (or anyone offering a persuasive argument) who attempts to convince another of the immorality of war, which may prompt a person to refuse to serve in the Armed Forces can be arrested:

18 USC (United States Code)
Quote:

Section 1381. Enticing desertion and harboring deserters, Whoever entices or procures, or attempts or endeavors to entice or procure any person in the Armed Forces of the United States, or who has been recruited for service therein, to desert therefrom, or aids any such person in deserting or in attempting to desert from such service; or Whoever harbors, conceals, protects, or assists any such person who may have deserted from such service, knowing him to have deserted therefrom, or refuses to give up and deliver such person on the demand of any officer authorized to receive him - Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.

Section 2387. Activities affecting armed forces generally (a) Whoever, with intent to interfere with, impair, or influence the loyalty, morale, or discipline of the military or naval forces of the United States:
(1) advises, counsels, urges, or in any manner causes or attempts to cause insubordination, disloyalty, mutiny, or refusal of duty by any member of the military or naval forces of the United States; or (2) distributes or attempts to distribute any written or printed matter which advises, counsels, or urges insubordination, disloyalty, mutiny, or refusal of duty by any member of the military or naval forces of the United States -
Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both, and shall be ineligible for employment by the United States or any department or agency thereof, for the five years next following his conviction.
(b) For the purposes of this section, the term "military or naval forces of the United States" includes the Army of the United States, the Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps, Coast Guard, Naval Reserve, Marine Corps Reserve, and Coast Guard Reserve of the United States; and, when any merchant vessel is commissioned in the Navy or is in the service of the Army or the Navy, includes the master, officers, and crew of such vessel.



That's right ladies and gentlemen, the First Amendment is hereby repealed. When the draft is reinstated, the government will have legal recourse to crush dissent. "Wait a minute Pros," you might say, "the law says 'who has been recruited for service therein,' it doesn't say 'drafted.'" Well I happened to look up the verb, 'recruit' and the first definition listed is , 'To engage (persons) for military service.' Who wants to bet that this is the definition the government prefers as well?


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Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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InvisibleLe_Canard
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Registered: 05/17/03
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Re: Can you be arrested for expressing an argument against war? [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4494330 - 08/04/05 11:46 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Hmm...sure looks that way. It's not without precedent, however. There was once the Alien and Sedition act during the first World War which made it outright illegal to speak out in any form against U.S. involvement in that conflict. Also Lincoln suspended the writ of habeus corpusduring the Civil War, ostensibly as an anti-spy measure, but had the same effect of silencing objections to the war then....


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OfflineProsgeopax
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Army Wife Receives Felony Charge Because Hubby Didn't Want To Kill Brown People [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4494343 - 08/04/05 11:50 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

We see here that the Army has already filed felony charges against one Amy Bartell under this law for ?enticing, abetting a deserter.? Amy is the wife of Spc. Dale Bartell who was convicted of dodging duty after they joined a Mennonite church and their religious convictions changed. Mennonites are pacifist Christians.


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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OfflineGrav
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Re: Army Wife Receives Felony Charge Because Hubby Didn't Want To Kill Brown People [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4494555 - 08/04/05 01:05 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

You're talking about two different things here.

There's a difference between arguing against the war and urging a member of military to go against the duties he contracted him(her)self into.


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OfflineProsgeopax
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Re: Army Wife Receives Felony Charge Because Hubby Didn't Want To Kill Brown People [Re: Grav]
    #4494772 - 08/04/05 01:47 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

The two are intimately related. Discussing the morality of an issue (such from the perspective of the Mennonite religion) can lead one to decide to not serve. Saying to a person, "I think you should not go fight this war, because..." could be considered criminal.


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Army Wife Receives Felony Charge Because Hubby Didn't Want To Kill Brown People [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4495187 - 08/04/05 03:04 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Well, technically it's aiding and abetting a felony, just like talking someone into robbing a bank. But you're right to be concerned about the potential for this law to be abused.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Army Wife Receives Felony Charge Because Hubby Didn't Want To Kill Brown People [Re: Silversoul]
    #4495524 - 08/04/05 04:26 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

To answer the question in the thread title, No. Graz is correct as a point of law. Since you asked a question about a point of law it is useless to argue in philosophical terms that the two are intimately related. It is irrelevant. I do not see anything in the statute you quoted that prevents one from arguing against the war. Incitement to desertion is something else entirely. Also note that he pled guilty to desertion.
As to the Alien and Sedition Acts, Toilet Duk, they were enacted in 1798 and either repealed or expired by 1802. http://www.bartleby.com/65/al/AlienNSe.html
I don't know what act you're talking about here. And any link to the effects of the cancelling of habeas corpus during the Civil War and the reasons for it?


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Army Wife Receives Felony Charge Because Hubby Didn't Want To Kill Brown People [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4495716 - 08/04/05 05:08 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
As to the Alien and Sedition Acts, Toilet Duk, they were enacted in 1798 and either repealed or expired by 1802.



I believe he was referring to the second Alien and Sedition Act, passed under the Wilson administration.


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InvisibleLe_Canard
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Re: Army Wife Receives Felony Charge Because Hubby Didn't Want To Kill Brown People [Re: Silversoul]
    #4495724 - 08/04/05 05:11 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
As to the Alien and Sedition Acts, Toilet Duk, they were enacted in 1798 and either repealed or expired by 1802.



I believe he was referring to the second Alien and Sedition Act, passed under the Wilson administration.




Yes, that is the one I was referring to. Sorry I wasn't clear on that, Zappa...


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OfflineSerioOria
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Re: Can you be arrested for expressing an argument against war? [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4495729 - 08/04/05 05:12 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

you cant, but i think their saying that you cant give anti-military propoganda to people already in the military, which i disagree with, but whatever


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Can you be arrested for expressing an argument against war? [Re: SerioOria]
    #4495744 - 08/04/05 05:18 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

SerioOria said:
you cant, but i think their saying that you cant give anti-military propoganda to people already in the military, which i disagree with, but whatever




I don't think you are correct about that either. Incitement is a different beast altogether. If anyone has a link to a case where they think that this has happened I'll be happy to join the outrage.


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OfflineProsgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?

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Re: Army Wife Receives Felony Charge Because Hubby Didn't Want To Kill Brown People [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4495810 - 08/04/05 05:39 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

So it's your contention that if a person attempts to persuade people to follow the path of non-violence and refrain from going to war, that this then could never be construed as to be influencing, advising, counseling or urging the refusal of military service which would result in the death of others?

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Also note that he pled guilty to desertion.



The point is not that he pled guilty, the point is that felony charges were filed AGAINST HIS WIFE! So again we see coming from the current government, the use of tactics against wives of those the government disagrees with. I guess this is what 'family values' is all about, make an example to intimidate others who may choose a similar path by demonstrating the government's willingness to go after their family members. I must admit that it is a tried and true tactic for handling dissenters the world over. The U.S. has certainly joined a distinguished list of regimes throughout history that have employed such measures to ensure compliance.


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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Offlinevotelp2008
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Re: Can you be arrested for expressing an argument against war? [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4495817 - 08/04/05 05:41 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

A law can never override the Constitution. If a court finds that a defendant's acts were upheld by the First Amendment, they will not convict him, no matter what the law says. However, as has been said before, inciting someone to do something is not the same as expressing an argument.


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"...the primary reason to outlaw marihuana is its effect on the degenerate races."
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OfflineProsgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?

Registered: 01/28/05
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Re: Can you be arrested for expressing an argument against war? [Re: votelp2008]
    #4495834 - 08/04/05 05:47 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

The Constitution is ignored when convenient, followed when it serves the purposes of those in power and re-interpreted when all else fails. A piece of parchment cannot preserve what is not valued by the general populace.


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Army Wife Receives Felony Charge Because Hubby Didn't Want To Kill Brown People [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4495937 - 08/04/05 06:23 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Prosgeopax said:
So it's your contention that if a person attempts to persuade people to follow the path of non-violence and refrain from going to war, that this then could never be construed as to be influencing, advising, counseling or urging the refusal of military service which would result in the death of others?

Please show me the case where this has ever occurred

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Also note that he pled guilty to desertion.



The point is not that he pled guilty, the point is that felony charges were filed AGAINST HIS WIFE! So again we see coming from the current government, the use of tactics against wives of those the government disagrees with. I guess this is what 'family values' is all about, make an example to intimidate others who may choose a similar path by demonstrating the government's willingness to go after their family members. I must admit that it is a tried and true tactic for handling dissenters the world over. The U.S. has certainly joined a distinguished list of regimes throughout history that have employed such measures to ensure compliance.




Your blather aside, if his wife coerced him into violating his vows then she is guilty as charged. It has absolutely nothing to do with speaking out against the war. If you sign up for the military you are committed to it for the term of your enlistment. We cannot and will never have a military where the soldiers can opt out of combat at their whim.

I will note that there are absolutely no, zero, zip, none, nada details posted about the case against her. Without details of the case your dudgeon is just hot air.


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OfflineProsgeopax
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Re: Army Wife Receives Felony Charge Because Hubby Didn't Want To Kill Brown People [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4496140 - 08/04/05 07:49 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Please show me the case where this has ever occurred



Having trouble recognizing questions when you see them? Here it is again (slightly reworded): Is it your contention that if a person attempts to persuade people to follow the path of non-violence and refrain from going to war, that this then could never be construed as to be influencing, advising, counseling or urging the refusal of military service which would result in the death of others? A simple yes or no will suffice.

Quote:

if his wife coerced him



Please. Have you ever had a relationship with a woman where you were equals? Have you ever even had a relationship with a woman? Some men actually have discussions with their women because they see them as intelligent, caring human beings who have their best interests both physically and morally at heart. Now here's a news flash, not all people stagnate with the moral maturity they had in high school. Some of us continue to develop and decide that moral standards come before fealty to the state.

But let's get down to brass tacks, shall we? Do you or do you not support the government tactic of targeting family members of those who say or do things that the government disagrees with? I noticed no condemnation from you of such chicken shit tactics in the Plame affair, can I assume that you support picking on women in this instance also?


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Army Wife Receives Felony Charge Because Hubby Didn't Want To Kill Brown People [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4496217 - 08/04/05 08:14 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Prosgeopax said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Please show me the case where this has ever occurred



Having trouble recognizing questions when you see them? Here it is again (slightly reworded): Is it your contention that if a person attempts to persuade people to follow the path of non-violence and refrain from going to war, that this then could never be construed as to be influencing, advising, counseling or urging the refusal of military service which would result in the death of others? A simple yes or no will suffice.

Yes, assuming the "persuasion" is merely dialogue which does not devolve into, oh say an act of extortion such as "if you enlist I will publish pictures of you shagging that dog." That can be very persuasive and it is strictly speech but it is certainly not protected. Capisce?

Quote:

if his wife coerced him



Please. Have you ever had a relationship with a woman where you were equals? Have you ever even had a relationship with a woman? Some men actually have discussions with their women because they see them as intelligent, caring human beings who have their best interests both physically and morally at heart. Now here's a news flash, not all people stagnate with the moral maturity they had in high school. Some of us continue to develop and decide that moral standards come before fealty to the state.

My relationships are irrelevant to his or yours. Got any idea what their relationship was? Maybe she was the Svengali. How about finding out what the details of the case are instead of hyperventilating over some half assed blog. Ah, no, a hypervintilator will hyperventilate. It's what they do

But let's get down to brass tacks, shall we? Do you or do you not support the government tactic of targeting family members of those who say or do things that the government disagrees with? I noticed no condemnation from you of such chicken shit tactics in the Plame affair, can I assume that you support picking on women in this instance also?




Nothing happened in the Plame case and what Novak said, that this was a pure case of nepotism in a CIA gone out of control, is 100% correct. Regardless of the fact that Wilson is a liar. Valerie Wilson as the poor little wronged housewife????? You are fucking hilarious. She is a major player in this and hasn't been undercover for over a decade.

Are you such a chauvinist neanderthal that you can't believe that a woman can be just as sleazy as a man or control a relationship? Jesus, get a fucking clue.


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OfflineProsgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?

Registered: 01/28/05
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Re: Army Wife Receives Felony Charge Because Hubby Didn't Want To Kill Brown People [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4496930 - 08/04/05 10:52 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Yes, assuming the "persuasion" is merely dialogue which does not devolve into, oh say an act of extortion such as "if you enlist I will publish pictures of you shagging that dog."



Then you should agree that this law goes against the foundations of a free society and will serve (if enforced) to squelch free speech and to undermine the freedoms that the founders of this nation fought for. BTW, do you know WHY the first amendment was included first in the Bill of Rights? Do you think it MIGHT have anything to do with political speech and expressing opinions designed to persuade and inform others regarding the government and it's operations?

Quote:

How about finding out what the details of the case are instead of hyperventilating over some half assed blog.



Funny, it's obvious you have not informed yourself as the link I provided was not from a blog but from a local newspaper. I typed my comments using a computer keyboard, it's really quite easy and requires no hyperventilating.

Quote:

Nothing happened in the Plame case and what Novak said...



Ha ha ha, what a tool. "Duh, if Novak saiz it, it musth be trwoo, duh."

Quote:

Regardless of the fact that Wilson is a liar.



Irrelevant.

Quote:

Valerie Wilson as the poor little wronged housewife?????



You said that, I didn't. The fact is that you have to be lower than hammered whale shit to target any member of a man's family (or support such an attack) because you do not like his politics.

Quote:

She is a major player in this and hasn't been undercover for over a decade.



Since it's safe to assume that you don't know squat about the intelligence community and how things operate I will repost part of what I posted in an earlier thread regarding the Plame affair and testimony by people from the intelligence community. I caught this testimony given during a forum televised on C-SPAN, here's the transcript. You can read the statement of Jim Marcinkowski and the statement of Larry C. Johnson as well as the statement of Colonel W. Patrick Lang, (ret?d).

Who are these people? You can read their biographies here.

Here's a fact sheet of the Bush administration security breaches involving Valerie Plame.

Here's a fact sheet about Karl Rove's nondisclosure agreement.

Again you neglected to answer a question I posed so I will try again. Do you or do you not support the government tactic of targeting family members of those who say or do things that the government disagrees with? If not, why not?


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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Invisiblerod
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Re: Can you be arrested for expressing an argument against war? [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4496961 - 08/04/05 11:00 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

If there are any young people out there thinking of joining up
please dont, the fucking usa country is lying to you, oil is not worth your lives, go live and have fun.
yes I live here in the communist country of america. :mushroom2: :mushroom2: :mushroom2: :mushroom2:


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Army Wife Receives Felony Charge Because Hubby Didn't Want To Kill Brown People [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4497005 - 08/04/05 11:11 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Prosgeopax said to zappaisgod:
Have you ever even had a relationship with a woman? 




:rotfl:


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