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OfflineAscension
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Breakthrough
    #4493822 - 08/04/05 05:02 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Okai, dont know how much of a "Breakthrough" this actually is but i thought i better post it incase it hasnt been brought up before.

Well it started not long ago when i was at uni sitting in a microbiology class. And some very basic things were being outlined.
One of those things were;
"Microbes need carbon, oxygen, nitrogen, hydrogen, phosphorus, and sulfer to grow"
Well it was something along the lines of that.

Then i was in my garage and i saw a fertilizer that contained
These basic elements, Nitrogen as blood as bones, etc etc etc

I had two cakes that were on their third flush and they only had 1 or 2 tiny mushrooms, I picked them off the cakes and waited over a week and their were no more flushes coming, the cakes was spent!

I took some of the fertilizer, only bout 5 or 6 pellets (each pellet was the size of about a pez lollie (bout 10mm X 5mm)

Dissolved them in a shot glass of water, and poured this water over only 1 of the cakes and into the one case i have going.

Well now, the cake that had the fertlizer is on its 6th flush and is going just as strong as the first one (if not better)

The one without the fertlizer stayed sterile for another few weeks until i added the fertlizer and it started flushing again.

Now the amazing thing is, i poured this fertlizer liquid over my case and some of it just sat at the bottom of the plastic container in puddles.
Within two days the puddles had become complety colonized and i could pick it up like a peice of cheese, the MYC went crazy over the fertlizer liquid.

Now thats all i have done so far, thought i best post up incase other people want to play around with it.

But ive got some ideas, going to take some straight vermiculite and soak it in the fertlizer liquid instead of water and then sterilize and colonize. There will be no need for poo or anything like that because we have all the Nitrogen we need through the fertilizer.

Can keep casings going forever by fertilizing the cases, etc etc.

Ratios i have no idea about, but will try to find out about it.

Cheers.


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OfflineMindzpore
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Re: Breakthrough [Re: Ascension]
    #4493952 - 08/04/05 07:33 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

could you please provide some more info on the brand/type of fertilizer. maby list what its made of and whats in it.


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Offlinehyphae
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Re: Breakthrough [Re: Ascension]
    #4493967 - 08/04/05 07:47 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Also did you rehydrate the non-fert cakes as well?


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OfflineAscension
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Re: Breakthrough [Re: hyphae]
    #4494194 - 08/04/05 10:44 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

I dunked the non fertile cakes in just water and got nothing, also tried dunking in a solution of malt/dextrose and still nothing, i also injected them with a malt/dextrose solution from a syringe to make sure it was getting into the cake, that didnt do anything to bring them back to life either.

Its pretty simple when you think about it, the reason why cakes/cases become spent is because it runs out of resources to grow.
If you can keep supplying it with what it needs, theirs no reason why it shouldnt keep fruiting.
I guess the only thing stopping us is how long the myc will hold out.

The brand of fertilizer doesnt matter, the fact that its fertilizer doesnt matter.
What matters is getting the nutrients to the shrooms that they need to grow.

What i forget to put in before is potassium, this is important to.

What you need to introduce to the substrate is;
Nitrogen
Phosphours
Potassium
Sulfur

The oxygen, hydrogen and carbon are supplied by the obvious ways.

Anyways, what im trying to say is, why bother with horse poo
People use horse poo because its high in nitrogen which gives more potent shroooms.
But this way you can add the amount of nitrogen you want, you could add 10X more nitrogen then horse poo could ever supply.

Imagine soaking your WBS or Vermiculite in a solution of saturated Nitrogen/Potassium/Sulfur/Potassium.
Your substrate will already have enough basic elemnts you wont even need the horse poo.

Im also excited about how the myc spread to a puddle of this fertilizer liquid and it complety solidified into something i can only explain as a peice of mycelium cheese, and at a rate that was outstanding.


Edited by Ascension (08/04/05 10:50 AM)


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OfflineAscension
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Re: Breakthrough [Re: Ascension]
    #4494244 - 08/04/05 11:07 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

hyphae i found one of your posts, thats got the information i have been trying to get a hold on for a while now.

Heres an abstract

"Product: 60 g of concentrated synthetic nutrient solution
Concentration: 100 g will produce 8 L of aqueous nutrient solution.
Acidity: 7.5 g of concentrate should produce 1 L of solution with a pH of 5.5
Quality: Does not need to meet reagent purity, food grade is acceptable.
Make Up: Relevance of definition in the order of Formula, Name, then CAS RN:

1. Glucose (C6H12O6) [40 g] CAS: [50-99-7]
2. Ammonium Succinate (C4H12N2O4) [8 g] CAS: [2226-88-2]
3. Yeast Extract (Organic Extract) [4 g] CAS: [8013-01-2]
4. Magnesium Sulfate (MgSO4-7H2O) [4 g] CAS: [7487-88-9]
5. Glycine (C2H5NO2) [3 g] CAS: [CAS 56-40-6]
6. Potassium Phosphate (KH2PO4) [800 mg] CAS: [7778-77-0]
7. Thiamine Hydrochloride (C12H17ClN4OS HCl) [24 mg] CAS: [67-03-8]
8. Ferrous Sulfate,Heptahydrate (FeSO4-7H2O) [20 mg] CAS: [7720-78-7]
9. Cupric Sulfate,5-Hydrate (CuSO4-5H2O) [4 mg] CAS: [7758-98-7]
10. Manganese Chloride, 4-Hydrate (MnCl2-4H2O) [2.8 mg] CAS: [7773-01-5]
11. Zinc Sulfate, Heptahydrate (ZnSO4-7H2O) [2.4 mg] CAS: [7733-02-0]
12. Ammonium Molybdate, 4-Hydrate ((NH4)6Mo7O24-4H2O) [0.4 mg] CAS: [12027-67-7]
13. DiHydrogen Oxide (H2O) [146.4 mg - X] CAS: [7732-18-5]
14. Hydrochloric Acid (HCl) [X mg] adjusted to balance solution pH when properly diluted."

Do you mind posting the reference to this, as ive been trying to find some scientific papers but havnt been successful.

In the end, what im trying to do is make a liquid with everything required. So i can keep replenishing spent cakes/cases so i dont have to keep incubating jars.
If thats not possible because of myc degrading over time, then at least i could use this formula of goodies to soak vermiculite in and not have to worry bout tring to use horse poo etc

Maybe a cross between the fertilizer i have and some malt/dextrose.

Im pretty sure someone must have done something like this before?


Edited by Ascension (08/04/05 11:10 AM)


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Re: Breakthrough [Re: Ascension]
    #4494365 - 08/04/05 12:01 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

hummm... interesting... like a pet cake that keeps on giving and giving :smile:

i bet the mycilium will develop some kind of deficiency after a while and you'd have to PH balance all the time...
i also wonder about taste differences


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Offlineiateshaggy
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Re: Breakthrough [Re: Simisu]
    #4495207 - 08/04/05 03:06 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

yeh, if you can make cakes keep flushing over and over i'd say that's a breakthrough.


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OfflineMindzpore
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Re: Breakthrough [Re: iateshaggy]
    #4495635 - 08/04/05 04:47 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

hmm, at second thought... it might be sensible to be a bit careful. shrooms can load up on some "nutrients" in proportions that are not that nutritious to humans. i remember after tjernobyl (chernobyl), we couldnt eat any mushrooms that grown outdoors for almost ten years after.

and although this would not normally be a problem, growing in a solution of nutrients might (just might) cause similar problems.

im not trying to be negative (if it works its a great idea) just being prudent. the last thing we need is bad media due to someone having something like a kidney, liver or heart failure due to mushrooms accumulating weird levels of iron, potassium or whatnot. "they learned about it on the internet" blablabla... ah, you know what i mean.


--------------------
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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Breakthrough [Re: Ascension]
    #4495676 - 08/04/05 04:54 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

How much shrinkage was there of the mycelium bodies after each post-fertilization flush?


If this works, it seems to me that the mycelium would be self-cannabalizing itself to produce fruitbodies. Possibly the lack of some vital nutrient besides water was preventing catabolism.


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Re: Breakthrough [Re: Ascension]
    #4495792 - 08/04/05 05:35 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Ascension said:
What you need to introduce to the substrate is;
Nitrogen
Phosphours
Potassium
Sulfur

The oxygen, hydrogen and carbon are supplied by the obvious ways.




Well, maybe I'm retarded, but what is the obvious way mushrooms obtain carbon? They're not photosynthetic, they don't fix carbon from the air. I always thought this was an important factor for them to have.

Peace


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OfflineAscension
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Re: Breakthrough [Re: @cro]
    #4496861 - 08/04/05 10:28 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Okai
First off, to answer the question bout chernobyl, after the explosion the radiation poisoned pretty much everything in a massive radius around it.
It was the radiation that hangs around for ages because of a long half life, and its because of this that you couldnt eat the mushrooms (something like that), Not Because of a build up of nutrients.
Growing in an excess of nutrients wouldnt be a problem, i mean how many times have you heard of a gardner getting sick because he over fertilized his crop?
I mean if you grew some peas that had an Abudance of nutrients in it, say 100 times normal then you would be a hero, you cold supply someone with all their daily nutrients with just one pea, You would end world hunger! :p

simisu the fertlizer is already PH balanced so thats one less thing to worry about. (actually i gotta check if the PH of the fertilizer is the same as the optimum PH level for shrooms, but i dont think it would be much different)

Baby_Hitler the myc hasnt shrunk that much at all, hard to tell because ive been looking at it everyday but i dont think it has changed much.

@cro and yeah sorry bout that i made a mistake, i should of said the carbon came from the glucose which is the dextrose, and since i soaked/injected the cakes in dextrose this would of been their carbon source.

Now i just read the fertilizer again and this is exactly what it contains.
- Nitrogen
- Phosphorus
- Sulfur
- Calcium
- Copper
- Iron
- Magnesium


Edited by Ascension (08/04/05 10:33 PM)


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Offlinehyphae
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Re: Breakthrough [Re: Ascension]
    #4496903 - 08/04/05 10:43 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

One obvious problem I can see here and as Mindzpore brought up mushrooms will not utilize the same amounts of nutrients over time this will eventually lead to a element salt buildup which will in turn become toxic to the mycelium. Nitrogen being #1 as always
I say do a controlled experiment keeping detailed logs and pics and do this over the course of say 30 flushes and see when this antagonist response occurs then let us know. Much appreciated bro :wink:


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OfflineMagicalMystery
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Re: Breakthrough [Re: Ascension]
    #4497027 - 08/04/05 11:17 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

You can definatly over-fertilize living organisms.  Mix your hydro solution at 15,000ppm and see if they like it :smile:


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Re: Breakthrough [Re: Ascension]
    #4497873 - 08/05/05 01:59 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)


If you are going to add something to suppliment anything a near optimal substrate - may lack. I would suggest kelp meal at a rate of 1 or 2 teaspoons per 5 lbs of dry substrate.


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OfflineMagicalMystery
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Re: Breakthrough [Re: agar]
    #4497922 - 08/05/05 02:06 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Does kelp have any odor?


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From the Declaration of the Continental Congress

"We can have peace and security only as long as we band together to preserve that most priceless possession, our inheritance of European blood."
Charles A. Lindbergh,"Aviation, Geography, and Race", Reader's Digest, Nov. 1939

"We must secure the existance of our people and a future for White children."
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Re: Breakthrough [Re: MagicalMystery]
    #4497966 - 08/05/05 02:14 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

NONE .........that I can tell. At least at the rates - I apply it.

A huge pile of it - rotting on a beach doesn't even have a bad odor.


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OfflineMagicalMystery
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Re: Breakthrough [Re: agar]
    #4497977 - 08/05/05 02:15 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

2.8mg tryptophan / 10g of wet kale. I wonder how much of that kale is water ? I bet a whole lot.


--------------------

"Men trained in arms from their infancy, and animated by the love of liberty, will afford neither a cheap or easy conquest."
From the Declaration of the Continental Congress

"We can have peace and security only as long as we band together to preserve that most priceless possession, our inheritance of European blood."
Charles A. Lindbergh,"Aviation, Geography, and Race", Reader's Digest, Nov. 1939

"We must secure the existance of our people and a future for White children."
David Lane


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Offlinexburn
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Re: Breakthrough [Re: MagicalMystery]
    #4498934 - 08/05/05 07:53 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Kelp is a supplement many humans are and have been taking for many years. It is really high in other nutrients other than tryptophan.

Also in regards to a build up of nutrients after so many flushes. I think that if you could get 7 flushes that were good before the toxcity began to set in. And i believe he said he got 6 off his cake so far. Isn't that a good thing. Once the build up is too high you simply toss the cake/casing. And make a new one. This would be cool and practical because a lot of city kid dont have ready access to da H poo and kelp meal via Organic food stores, which is all i have found local in my city, are rather expensive. There are gardening stores eveywhere which sell fertilizer at a much cheaper rate than the kelp.

But the key thing to remember here is that there is already a bunch of proven methods out there and this would just be another to choose from. If one doesn't like the idea of tossing a casing due to nutrient build after a few flushes try your hand with WBS and most new people cant get more than 3-4 flushes from that.

I haven't slept in 30 some odd hours so i just totally ranted about somehting that didnt need a rant

/disregard


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OfflineAscension
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Re: Breakthrough [Re: xburn]
    #4499057 - 08/05/05 09:54 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

its okai xburn... we all get like that sometimes :p

Also another observation id like to add is, i chopped one of the cakes in half (vertical) and rolled in vermiculite and laid them on the cut side down.

They flush on these seem just as big as if it was still whole. (
Im guessing it matters about the surface area thats viable for a fruit to pop up, and not the actual size of the substrate its on)

Does anyone have links to scientific papers about the amount of nutrients shrooms/myc uses?


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Offlineshirley knott
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Myc likes nutrients [Re: Ascension]
    #4499161 - 08/05/05 10:44 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

you poured liquid plant fertiliser on the mycelium, basically lotsa nutrients, and it liked it. that's not really advanced cultivation or a breakthrough, but good to hear that you were successful anyway.

i'm opening this up to a bigger audience.


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