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dblaney
Human Being
Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
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Re: Does enlightenment exist? [Re: mecreateme]
#4496687 - 08/04/05 07:47 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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That is indeed an intriguing post.
You seem to see enlightenment as something other than what you have. You are made out of light and light makes your world. I like how others put is more as a process than a thing to achieve, you can find that out for yourself.
You seem to be on the quest for secret knowledge. Not many find it, but some find that they do not want to know it when they do. It is most earth shattering and also most simple as well. Most can have an experiental moment through the use of psychedelic drugs.
I've never thought of humans as being innately enlightened. But why couldn't they be? Although now I'm not sure...I'm not sure if it's a thing, or a state of mind, or a kind of deep sea fish.
I see life itself as a continual process, with each moment bringing something entirely new to the table, with everything being ever-changing.
I am on a quest for knowledge, not necessarily any secret knowledge though. I am somewhat familiar with the cosmic joke, especially after one-too many nitrous whippits .
The concept of enlightenment however, is most baffling to me.
It is something many strive to achieve, yet for each and every person it could be something entirely different, or it could not even exist at all.
-------------------- "What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?" "Belief is a beautiful armor But makes for the heaviest sword" - John Mayer Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,063
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in this way you are [Re: dblaney]
#4496808 - 08/04/05 08:13 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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Code:
you can see yourself as the process of experiencing, and also that experiencing includes associating - and expressions to others emerge from that. you can see your essence transcending the base of body and instinct by your intentions to face the world. voila, in those moments you are on the otherside of this question & your expressions present this teaching.
Edited by redgreenvines (08/04/05 08:28 PM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Does enlightenment exist? [Re: dblaney]
#4496827 - 08/04/05 08:17 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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I like your signature philosophy
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger
Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
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Re: Does enlightenment exist? [Re: Icelander]
#4497141 - 08/04/05 09:49 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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Yeah, nice signature! I'm a hedonihilist too.
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Delusion_of_Self
Stranger
Registered: 03/14/05
Posts: 230
Last seen: 18 years, 5 months
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Quote:
MushmanTheManic said: One could argue that everything created by our minds is an illusion.
Enlightenment is not a product of the mind but a product of purification. Meditation purifies the mind, but note that the purpose is to still the mind in order to transcend it, not to dwell in it. Enlightenment is there when you dispel illusion, not by creating another one.
-------------------- "It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief." -- Sri Yukteswar
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looner2
ABBA fan
Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
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Yes it exists, see my signature. It only occurs to a few special people who have the courage and strength to become enlightened. Its not an easy thing to possess and the burden of humanity rests on the few that have it, ironically it feels as light as a feather to me. Quite powerful huh?
Like I said, not many have it. I have not met or seen anyone that has even come close, except one other person. I don't suggest you try to attain it because you will most definitely fail. You will gain better understanding of yourself and peace of mind if you just give in to the select few that are already there.
-------------------- I am in love with Acidic_Sloth
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Icelander
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Posts: 95,368
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Re: Does enlightenment exist? [Re: looner2]
#4501871 - 08/05/05 10:23 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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FreedomFight
Strange
Registered: 07/03/05
Posts: 427
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Re: Does enlightenment exist? [Re: Icelander]
#4502702 - 08/06/05 01:19 AM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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Anyone that claims he is enlightened has only affirmed his abandonment of the quest for the unattainable complete understanding.
-------------------- I do not grow anything illegal. I do not sell anything. I am, however, a very curious individual. I also try to be helpful.
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FreedomFight
Strange
Registered: 07/03/05
Posts: 427
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Re: Does enlightenment exist? [Re: FreedomFight]
#4502709 - 08/06/05 01:20 AM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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Seriously, we are all 'enlightened' until we once again realize our perpetual ignorance which starts the cycle all over again.
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looner2
ABBA fan
Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
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Re: Does enlightenment exist? [Re: FreedomFight]
#4503323 - 08/06/05 08:23 AM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
FreedomFight said: Anyone that claims he is enlightened has only affirmed his abandonment of the quest for the unattainable complete understanding.
If you are enlightened why deny the truth? What purpose would that serve?
-------------------- I am in love with Acidic_Sloth
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Does enlightenment exist? [Re: looner2]
#4503375 - 08/06/05 09:05 AM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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And if you are full of shit, you might as well still claim it. It would serve the purpose of temporarily making you feel better about yourself. Especially if underneath it all you really didn't feel very good about yourself and thought that others were somehow better.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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looner2
ABBA fan
Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
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Re: Does enlightenment exist? [Re: Icelander]
#4503424 - 08/06/05 09:46 AM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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Icelander said: And if you are full of shit, you might as well still claim it. It would serve the purpose of temporarily making you feel better about yourself. Especially if underneath it all you really didn't feel very good about yourself and thought that others were somehow better.
Enlightenment has nothing to do with feeling good about yourself. Like I said above, its a mixture of courage and strength and then there is that special something. It really can't be explained to those that don't have it... a paradox really.
But my question still stands. If someone has the gift of enlightenment, why should they hide it? What purpose would that serve? Power is only good when it is displayed and put to use.
-------------------- I am in love with Acidic_Sloth
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Does enlightenment exist? [Re: looner2]
#4503435 - 08/06/05 09:53 AM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
looner2 said:
Quote:
Icelander said: And if you are full of shit, you might as well still claim it. It would serve the purpose of temporarily making you feel better about yourself. Especially if underneath it all you really didn't feel very good about yourself and thought that others were somehow better.
Enlightenment has nothing to do with feeling good about yourself. Like I said above, its a mixture of courage and strength and then there is that special something. It really can't be explained to those that don't have it... a paradox really.
But my question still stands. If someone has the gift of enlightenment, why should they hide it? What purpose would that serve? Power is only good when it is displayed and put to use.
Each of us has our own definition of enlightenment. I see nothing good or bad about saying one is enlightened. Each person defines for themselves also what power means and how it would be put to use.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (08/06/05 09:57 AM)
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dblaney
Human Being
Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
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Re: Does enlightenment exist? [Re: looner2]
#4503477 - 08/06/05 10:15 AM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
looner2 said:
Quote:
Icelander said: And if you are full of shit, you might as well still claim it. It would serve the purpose of temporarily making you feel better about yourself. Especially if underneath it all you really didn't feel very good about yourself and thought that others were somehow better.
Enlightenment has nothing to do with feeling good about yourself. Like I said above, its a mixture of courage and strength and then there is that special something. It really can't be explained to those that don't have it... a paradox really.
But my question still stands. If someone has the gift of enlightenment, why should they hide it? What purpose would that serve? Power is only good when it is displayed and put to use.
It seems that perhaps there is no one objective enlightenment. If there was, then what would stop those who achieved it from telling everyone else exactly what it is, thereby enlightening them?
It may be more accurate to say that there is a subjective enlightenment for each of us individually.
In my case, it strikes me that anyone who is so quick to sing their virtues is in fact not enlightened, and perhaps is missing something in their own lives? (no disrespect meant)
-------------------- "What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?" "Belief is a beautiful armor But makes for the heaviest sword" - John Mayer Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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mecreateme
YoUisMEEMsiUoY
Registered: 05/13/04
Posts: 2,727
Loc: Memphrica
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Re: Does enlightenment exist? [Re: dblaney]
#4503513 - 08/06/05 10:30 AM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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Those who do not speak know the power of the silence that is conveyed.
Are you asking does a word, "enlightenment" exist? Well it does naturally because I just typed it and the spell check accepted it. What it means to you could be anything. Remember, you are made visible by light. You are enlightened everytime you walk outside into the sunlight. That is just one literal way of looking at enlightenment. Each one is just as correct as all the others. Unless you get some power hungry fool who says,"enlightenment is this and not that, remember my words." Your definitions are more valid than someone else's, IMO.
-------------------- No ONE wants to know the ultimate TRUTH, as soon as YOU find IT out, YOU want to forget IT. You are everything's way of feeling itself. Happy Schwag, everygodly!
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dblaney
Human Being
Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
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The Buddha wasn't enlightened really [Re: mecreateme]
#4503517 - 08/06/05 10:34 AM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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Unless you get some power hungry fool who says,"enlightenment is this and not that, remember my words."
Hehe, this definitely supports my theory that the Buddha wasn't particularly and objectively enlightened, just wise.
Your definitions are more valid than someone else's, IMO.
I definitely agree with you here, becoming enlightened is entirely subjective, as one persons enlightenment could be drastically different than another's.
-------------------- "What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?" "Belief is a beautiful armor But makes for the heaviest sword" - John Mayer Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: The Buddha wasn't enlightened really [Re: dblaney]
#4503530 - 08/06/05 10:40 AM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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to the both of yous
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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looner2
ABBA fan
Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
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Re: Does enlightenment exist? [Re: dblaney]
#4503579 - 08/06/05 11:06 AM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
dblaney18 said:
Quote:
looner2 said:
Quote:
Icelander said: And if you are full of shit, you might as well still claim it. It would serve the purpose of temporarily making you feel better about yourself. Especially if underneath it all you really didn't feel very good about yourself and thought that others were somehow better.
Enlightenment has nothing to do with feeling good about yourself. Like I said above, its a mixture of courage and strength and then there is that special something. It really can't be explained to those that don't have it... a paradox really.
But my question still stands. If someone has the gift of enlightenment, why should they hide it? What purpose would that serve? Power is only good when it is displayed and put to use.
It seems that perhaps there is no one objective enlightenment. If there was, then what would stop those who achieved it from telling everyone else exactly what it is, thereby enlightening them?
It may be more accurate to say that there is a subjective enlightenment for each of us individually.
In my case, it strikes me that anyone who is so quick to sing their virtues is in fact not enlightened, and perhaps is missing something in their own lives? (no disrespect meant)
To the first part, because enlightenment goes beyond just having an answer. You cannot teach strength and courage, and of course that special something is oblivious to those that aren't there yet.
Enlightenment is objective. I know this because I am enlightened.
Finally, my answer which you actually quoted.
If someone has the gift of enlightenment, why should they hide it? What purpose would that serve? Power is only good when it is displayed and put to use.
Should I repeat it again?
-------------------- I am in love with Acidic_Sloth
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Icelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Does enlightenment exist? [Re: looner2]
#4503618 - 08/06/05 11:17 AM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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Should I repeat it again? _____________________
Oh please do!
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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dblaney
Human Being
Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
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Re: Does enlightenment exist? [Re: looner2]
#4503721 - 08/06/05 12:06 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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Let me turn your question around...what good would telling everyone that you are enlightened do?
There is an old Zen proverb that says Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water.
If you are enlightened, and very few others are, then what good would telling everyone that you are do? All I can see it doing is making yourself seem full of it and alienating yourself from many others.
-------------------- "What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?" "Belief is a beautiful armor But makes for the heaviest sword" - John Mayer Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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