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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Doctorow Flames Bush sent to me by Dr. Ralph Metzner
    #4489347 - 08/03/05 01:06 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

A deeply moving statement on what is happening to us (Americans) with the present regime.
Thanks to Eli Kolp for forwarding this on to me. I don?t know the original source.
Ralph Metzner


E L. Doctorow, speaks to America's soul

I fault this president (George W. Bush) for not knowing what death is. He does not suffer the death of our twenty-one year olds who wanted to be what they could be.

On the eve of D-day in 1944 General Eisenhower prayed to God for the lives of the young soldiers he knew were going to die. He knew what death was. Even in a justifiable war, a war not of choice but of necessity, a war of survival, the cost was almost more than Eisenhower could bear.

But this president does not know what death is. He hasn't the mind for it. You see him joking with the press, peering under the table for the WMDs he can't seem to find, you see him at rallies strutting up to the stage in shirt sleeves to the roar of the carefully screened crowd, smiling and waving, triumphal, a he-man. He does not mourn. He doesn't understand why he should mourn. He is satisfied during the course of a speech written for him to look solemn for a moment and speak of the brave young Americans who made the ultimate sacrifice for their country.

But you study him, you look into his eyes and know he dissembles an emotion which he does not feel in the depths of his being because he has no capacity for it. He does not feel a personal responsibility for the thousand dead young men and women who wanted be what they could be.

They come to his desk not as youngsters with mothers and fathers or wives and children who will suffer to the end of their days a terribly torn fabric of familial relationships and the inconsolable remembrance of aborted life.... They come to his desk as a political liability which is why the press is not permitted to photograph the arrival of their coffins from Iraq.



How then can he mourn? To mourn is to express regret and he regrets nothing. He does not regret that his reason for going to war was, as he knew, unsubstantiated by the facts. He does not regret that his bungled plan for the war's aftermath has made of his mission-accomplished a disaster. He does not regret that rather than controlling terrorism his war in Iraq has licensed it.



So he never mourns for the dead and crippled youngsters who have fought this war of his choice. He wanted to go to war and he did. He had not the mind to perceive the costs of war, or to listen to those who knew those costs. He did not understand that you do not go to war when it is one of the options, but when it is the only option; you go not because you want to but because you have to. This president knew it would be difficult for Americans not to cheer the overthrow of a foreign dictator. He knew that much. This president and his supporters would seem to have a mind for only one thing -- to take power, to remain in power, and to use that power for the sake of themselves and their friends. A war will do that as well as anything. You become a wartime leader. The country gets behind you. Dissent becomes appropriate. And so he does not drop to his knees, he is not contrite, he does not sit in the church with the grieving parents and wives and children.

He is the President who does not feel. He does not feel for the families of the dead; he does not feel for the thirty five million of us who live in poverty; he does not feel for the forty percent who cannot afford health insurance; he does not feel for the miners whose lungs are turning black or for the working people he has deprived of the chance to work overtime at time-and-a-half to pay their bills --- it is amazing for how many people in this country this President does not feel.

But he will dissemble feeling. He will say in all sincerity he is relieving the wealthiest one percent of the population of their tax burden for the sake of the rest of us, and that he is polluting the air we breathe for the sake of our economy, and that he is decreasing the safety regulations for coal mines to save the coal miners' jobs, and that he is depriving workers of their time-and-a- half benefits for overtime because this is actually a way to honor them by raising them into the professional class.

And this litany of lies he will versify with reverences for God and the flag and democracy, when just what he and his party are doing to our democracy is choking the life out of it.

But there is one more terribly sad thing about all of this. I remember the millions of people here and around the world who marched against the war. It was extraordinary, that spontaneously aroused over-soul of alarm and protest that transcended national borders. Why did it happen? After all, this was not the only war anyone had ever seen coming. There are little wars all over the world most of the time.

But the cry of protest was the appalled understanding of millions of people that America was ceding its role as the last best hope of mankind. It was their perception that the classic archetype of democracy was morphing into a rogue nation. The greatest democratic republic in history was turning its back on the future, using its extraordinary power and standing not to advance the ideal of a concordance of civilizations, but to endorse the kind of tribal combat that originated with the Neanderthals, a people, now extinct, who could imagine ensuring their survival by no other means than pre-emptive war.

The president we get is the country we get. With each president the nation is conformed spiritually. He is the artificer of our malleable national soul. He proposes not only the laws but the kinds of lawlessness that govern our lives and invoke our responses. The people he appoints are cast in his image. The trouble they get into and get us into, is his characteristic trouble.



Finally the media amplify his character into our moral weather report. He becomes the face of our sky, the conditions that prevail: How can we sustain ourselves s the United States of America given the stupid and ineffective war making, the constitutionally insensitive lawgiving, and the monarchial economics of this president? He cannot mourn but is a figure of such moral vacancy as to make us mourn for ourselves.




About E.L. Doctorow

Edgar Lawrence Doctorow occupies a central position in the history of American literature. He is generally considered to be among the most talented, ambitious, and admired novelists of the second half of the twentieth century. Doctorow has received the National Book Award, two National Book Critics Circle Awards, the PEN/Faulkner Award, the Edith Wharton Citation for Fiction, the William Dean Howell Medal of the American Academy of Arts and Letters, and the residentially conferred National Humanities Medal.



Doctorow was born in New York City on January 6, 1931. After graduating with honors from Kenyon College in 1952, he did graduate work at Columbia University and served in the U.S. Army. Doctorow was senior editor for New American Library from 1959 to 1964 and then served as editor in chief at Dial Press until 1969. Since then, he has devoted his time to writing and teaching. He holds the Glucksman Chair in American Letters at New York University and over the years has taught at several institutions, including Yale University Drama School, Princeton University, Sarah Lawrence College, and the University of California, Irvine.

mjshroomer


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Doctorow Flames Bush sent to me by Dr. Ralph Metzner [Re: mjshroomer]
    #4489366 - 08/03/05 01:11 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things; the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight; nothing he cares about more than his own personal safety; is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better persons than himself."

John Stuart Mill, 1806-1873



"If you will not fight for right when you can easily win without blood shed; if you will not fight when your victory is sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves."
- Winston Churchill


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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Invisiblebukkake
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Re: Doctorow Flames Bush sent to me by Dr. Ralph Metzner [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4489615 - 08/03/05 02:05 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Churchill was a warmonger and a swine of a man. Quoting him deters from your point of view more than anything.


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OfflineMagicalMystery
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Re: Doctorow Flames Bush sent to me by Dr. Ralph Metzner [Re: mjshroomer]
    #4490563 - 08/03/05 05:23 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

You can mourne for someone and not express regret, or have an implicit acknowledgement of guilt. I've mourned a few family members but that doesn't mean that I've acknowleged that I am implicit in their demise.


--------------------

"Men trained in arms from their infancy, and animated by the love of liberty, will afford neither a cheap or easy conquest."
From the Declaration of the Continental Congress

"We can have peace and security only as long as we band together to preserve that most priceless possession, our inheritance of European blood."
Charles A. Lindbergh,"Aviation, Geography, and Race", Reader's Digest, Nov. 1939

"We must secure the existance of our people and a future for White children."
David Lane


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OfflineGrav
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Re: Doctorow Flames Bush sent to me by Dr. Ralph Metzner [Re: mjshroomer]
    #4494706 - 08/04/05 01:34 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

I think it brings up a good point that I sometimes forget

we're being led to war by a man who has never experienced it and does not understand what it means


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Doctorow Flames Bush sent to me by Dr. Ralph Metzner [Re: Grav]
    #4495737 - 08/04/05 05:15 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Grav said:
I think it brings up a good point that I sometimes forget

we're being led to war by a man who has never experienced it and does not understand what it means




Is it thus your position that a President who has not personally experienced combat should never petition Congress with articles of war? Do you think that Congressmen who have not personally experienced war should recuse themselves from voting on it? Among the current Congress members, do you know what percentage of those who had personally experienced war voted in the affirmative for the Iraq war? Do you know what percentage of those who had personally experienced war voted against? Do you want to acknowledge that your position is absurd yet? Even Kerry voted for it and he was so traumatized that he hasn't been able to tell the truth since.


--------------------


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OfflineProsgeopax
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Re: Doctorow Flames Bush sent to me by Dr. Ralph Metzner [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4495839 - 08/04/05 05:49 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Is it thus your position that a President who has not personally experienced combat should never petition Congress with articles of war?



When did Bush ask congress for a declaration of war? When was the last time war was declared?


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Doctorow Flames Bush sent to me by Dr. Ralph Metzner [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4495870 - 08/04/05 05:58 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

You're joking right?


--------------------


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Doctorow Flames Bush sent to me by Dr. Ralph Metzner [Re: Grav]
    #4496097 - 08/04/05 07:29 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Grav said:
I think it brings up a good point that I sometimes forget

we're being led to war by a man who has never experienced it and does not understand what it means




I did a little research. Got a list of all the members of Congress who are veterans, which included who were combat vets. Then I checked how they voted on the Iraq war. House: All veterans 62-21 (75%) in favor; Combat vets 18-5 (78%)in favor. Senate: All veterans 16-3 (84%) in favor; Combat vets 4-1 (80%) in favor

Overall votes In House 296-133 (69%) in favor
In Senate 77-23 (77%) in favor


Seems like veterans are bigger war mongers than non-vets, regardless of combat experience.

Whither thou theory now? Why, withered away 'twas.


--------------------


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OfflineMagicalMystery
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Re: Doctorow Flames Bush sent to me by Dr. Ralph Metzner [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4496318 - 08/04/05 08:34 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:

Is it thus your position that a President who has not personally experienced combat should never petition Congress with articles of war? Do you think that Congressmen who have not personally experienced war should recuse themselves from voting on it? Among the current Congress members, do you know what percentage of those who had personally experienced war voted in the affirmative for the Iraq war? Do you know what percentage of those who had personally experienced war voted against? Do you want to acknowledge that your position is absurd yet? Even Kerry voted for it and he was so traumatized that he hasn't been able to tell the truth since.




And if we follow this to it's final conclusion, the entire government would be run by ex-military officers. I think that would be "less than ideal"


--------------------

"Men trained in arms from their infancy, and animated by the love of liberty, will afford neither a cheap or easy conquest."
From the Declaration of the Continental Congress

"We can have peace and security only as long as we band together to preserve that most priceless possession, our inheritance of European blood."
Charles A. Lindbergh,"Aviation, Geography, and Race", Reader's Digest, Nov. 1939

"We must secure the existance of our people and a future for White children."
David Lane


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OfflineGrav
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Re: Doctorow Flames Bush sent to me by Dr. Ralph Metzner [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4499051 - 08/05/05 09:51 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:

Is it thus your position that a President who has not personally experienced combat should never petition Congress with articles of war?




Yes that is my position.


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OfflineGrav
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Re: Doctorow Flames Bush sent to me by Dr. Ralph Metzner [Re: Grav]
    #4499055 - 08/05/05 09:52 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Unless of course we are actually under attack by another nation.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Doctorow Flames Bush sent to me by Dr. Ralph Metzner [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4499211 - 08/05/05 11:06 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

When did Bush ask congress for a declaration of war? When was the last time war was declared?

I believe it was WWII when war was declared on Germany and Japan.

For Korea, Viet Nam and Iraq, it seems no declaration was necessary, which I believe is a violation of America's own rules of international conduct.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Doctorow Flames Bush sent to me by Dr. Ralph Metzner [Re: Swami]
    #4499397 - 08/05/05 12:26 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:

For Korea, Viet Nam and Iraq, it seems no declaration was necessary, which I believe is a violation of America's own rules of international conduct.




Apparently you are incorrect
http://140.147.249.9/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d107:hj114:


--------------------


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OfflineGrav
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Re: Doctorow Flames Bush sent to me by Dr. Ralph Metzner [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4499632 - 08/05/05 01:31 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Grav said:
I think it brings up a good point that I sometimes forget

we're being led to war by a man who has never experienced it and does not understand what it means




I did a little research. Got a list of all the members of Congress who are veterans, which included who were combat vets. Then I checked how they voted on the Iraq war. House: All veterans 62-21 (75%) in favor; Combat vets 18-5 (78%)in favor. Senate: All veterans 16-3 (84%) in favor; Combat vets 4-1 (80%) in favor

Overall votes In House 296-133 (69%) in favor
In Senate 77-23 (77%) in favor


Seems like veterans are bigger war mongers than non-vets, regardless of combat experience.

Whither thou theory now? Why, withered away 'twas.




Not sure what theory you're talking about here but I never claimed otherwise.

I'm talking about the president, you know, that little chimp-like guy on TV that gives the really emotional speeches about how we must be strong in our war against terror, no matter what the cost.

That's the dude regular Americans are inspired by. not congress - The President. The Leader of the free nation.

And he has no credentials.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Doctorow Flames Bush sent to me by Dr. Ralph Metzner [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4499842 - 08/05/05 02:26 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Apparently you are incorrect

Sorry, but no. It was not a formal Declaration of War against Iraq, but an authorization to used armed forces. Nit-picking? No, not even close. Read up on Constitutional Law. After that, tell me EXACTLY what country we are now fighting and how this country may surrender to end the war.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisiblemikonn
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Re: Doctorow Flames Bush sent to me by Dr. Ralph Metzner [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4500189 - 08/05/05 03:38 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things; the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight; nothing he cares about more than his own personal safety; is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better persons than himself."

John Stuart Mill, 1806-1873



"If you will not fight for right when you can easily win without blood shed; if you will not fight when your victory is sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves."
- Winston Churchill





alright. so the john stuart mill quote is about as off-topic as to be deliberatly delusory. Who is saying that there is absolutely no reason to go to war or that there is nothing they are willing to fight for? absolute pacifists perhaps, but you can hardly claim that Doctorow is one from this essay. In very first paragraph he refers to WWII as "...a justifiable war, a war not of choice but of necessity, a war of survival" the point is that there are things worth fighting for and that there are things that are worthy of the sacrifice of brave soliders, but the current American regeme for which Bush is the mouth piece does not have the proper regard for life and are more than willing to sacrifice thousands on the basis of lies and misrepresentations for short term political advancement and the furtherance of their own ideologies.

As for the Churchill quote, what exactly is he saying, that you need to be willing to fight unjust and unnecessary wars so you will be able to fight just and necessary ones? what kind of logic is this? what exactly are you saying by quoting it?


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Doctorow Flames Bush sent to me by Dr. Ralph Metzner [Re: Grav]
    #4500352 - 08/05/05 04:09 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Grav said:
I think it brings up a good point that I sometimes forget

we're being led to war by a man who has never experienced it and does not understand what it means




You seem to be of the opinion that only a president who has experienced war first hand should commit us to one. I find that assinine. I also found through my own research that members of congress who had personally experienced war voted to approve the use of force in Iraq. If we accept your first premise then we would be obliged to only elect combat vets to the presidency as they would be the only people who you think should suggest we enter into with anyone. Neither Lincoln nor FDR were combat vets.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/08/25/MNGTI8DG0R17.DTL
"There is absolutely no evidence that military experience has any connection between what kind of president you'll be or even if you'll be a successful wartime president,'' said presidential scholar Allan Lichtman of American University in Washington.

As he and other scholars point out, the two presidents generally regarded as the country's greatest wartime leaders, Abraham Lincoln and Franklin D. Roosevelt, had no experience in uniform before becoming president, although Lincoln was a member of the Illinois state militia for three weeks in 1832. Grant is generally regarded as among the worst presidents. "

Get it


--------------------


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Doctorow Flames Bush sent to me by Dr. Ralph Metzner [Re: Swami]
    #4500372 - 08/05/05 04:13 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Apparently you are incorrect

Sorry, but no. It was not a formal Declaration of War against Iraq, but an authorization to used armed forces. Nit-picking? No, not even close. Read up on Constitutional Law. After that, tell me EXACTLY what country we are now fighting and how this country may surrender to end the war.




What you are incorrect about is that it is against our laws. Obviously, you are incorrect. When Swami is appointed to the Supreme Court, or any other court for that matter, I will eagerly await his ceaseless efforts to overthrow 200 years of precedence because, truly, only Swami knows.


--------------------


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Invisiblemikonn
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Re: Doctorow Flames Bush sent to me by Dr. Ralph Metzner [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4500486 - 08/05/05 04:48 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Swami said:
Apparently you are incorrect

Sorry, but no. It was not a formal Declaration of War against Iraq, but an authorization to used armed forces. Nit-picking? No, not even close. Read up on Constitutional Law. After that, tell me EXACTLY what country we are now fighting and how this country may surrender to end the war.




What you are incorrect about is that it is against our laws. Obviously, you are incorrect. When Swami is appointed to the Supreme Court, or any other court for that matter, I will eagerly await his ceaseless efforts to overthrow 200 years of precedence because, truly, only Swami knows.




I believe what swami was refering to in the earlier post is that it is against international, specifically it goes against the UN charter ,which were are signatories to, which reads in part
Quote:

?2(3) All Members shall settle their international
disputes by peaceful means in such a manner that
international peace and security, and justice, are not
endangered.
2(4) All Members shall refrain in their international
relations from the threat or use of force against the
territorial integrity or political independence of any
state, or any other manner inconsistent with the
Purposes of the United Nations.




and that nations can not act preemitivly without security counsil consent. They can however act out of self-defense.


Edited by mikonn (08/05/05 04:55 PM)


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