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 KingOftheThing
the cool fool
Registered: 11/17/02
Posts: 27,397
Loc: USA
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 dear right wingers 
#4488527 - 08/03/05 02:26 AM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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as much as i hate you guys...i mean socially the right makes me wanna get violent, seriously. i actually think i might agree maybe with a few right wing dudes i saw on hannity + colmes. they are proposing a flat sales tax, and no taxes on any items you would need to live. they explained it pretty well and it doesnt seem like that bad of an idea. it kind of gives you the option on how much tax you pay. rich people would also obviously pay waaaaayy more in taxes too , because tax on stuff like a bentley would be waaaaaay more than on say a saturn. sooo i guess the rich would still be carrying more of the tax load. i need to research this more to ensure i actually agree with it....sounds like a decent idea though.... 
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KingOftheThing
the cool fool
Registered: 11/17/02
Posts: 27,397
Loc: USA
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i also like this idea because it would eliminate the need to file on april 15th and dissolve the stupid IRS.
ps: your war is still criminal and stupid, christianity is brainwashing garbage and your enviromental policies are atrocious.
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 JesusChrist
Son Of God
Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 1,459
Last seen: 11 years, 7 months
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Dear King,
I didn't catch the program. Are you talking about the "Fair Tax" plan for a consumption tax? I am in love with the idea myself.
I wouldn't label it a "right wing" idea, just a great idea.
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/4010024/page//fpart/1/vc/1
I am going to bump that thread.
Nice to see you watching Hanity. You probably watch more Fox News than I do. And why not? Fox News has something for everyone.
Love,
Jesus H. Christ, Savior
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Tastes just like chicken
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KingOftheThing
the cool fool
Registered: 11/17/02
Posts: 27,397
Loc: USA
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yeah it was the fair tax thing...i caught it by accident actually..i fucking HATe hannity and refuse to watch him especially. but i am obsessed with watching anything anne coulter is on and flipping by i saw hannity talking to this blonde...turns out it was just some hoe filling in for colmes.... but i did get to learn about fair tax
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Consider the fact that you already pay state sales tax on most products, then consider the fact that the federal government's not planning on decreasing their budget anytime soon, then think about how much they're going to have to charge you on items you buy in order to fill that budget, then add that onto the state sales taxes you already pay. As for the rich, of course they'll pay more. That's true of any tax. But the burden of taxation falls more heavily on the poor with sales tax. We need tax reform in this country, but this is the wrong way to go about it.
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Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
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You can buy the book at Amazon. Number one non-fiction seller at the moment. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/det...ks&n=507846
This site gives a pretty good description of what the Fair Tax proposal consists of. There are other sites out there, but this is a good place to start. It's not that complicated to understand anyway. http://www.fairtax.org/
Phred
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Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
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 Re: dear right wingers [Re: Silversoul]
#4488806 - 08/03/05 07:34 AM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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Paradigm writes:
Quote:
We need tax reform in this country, but this is the wrong way to go about it.
This is the best way to go about it. No downside. Everything's been worked out pretty much perfectly. The poor win more than anyone -- by a lot.
The only problem is that it will never EVER be passed by Congress.
Phred
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 5 months, 26 days
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KOTT, you are such a closet conservative.
We know you love watching Fox News (and not just for Coulter). 
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shatt
Thats "Sirshatt" to you.
Registered: 08/01/05
Posts: 19
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Re: dear right wingers [Re: Silversoul]
#4488829 - 08/03/05 07:48 AM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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Okay then, what is the right way to do it?
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Tao
Village Genius
Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 8 years, 10 months
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Re: dear right wingers [Re: Phred]
#4488980 - 08/03/05 08:51 AM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
The poor win more than anyone -- by a lot.
Could you explain why that would be---more than with an income tax? And why would conservatives, notoriously the wealthier party, be pushing for it in that case? Just so they have less work on April 15th? I don't know if I quite buy that...
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Magash's Grain Tek + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs 
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JesusChrist
Son Of God
Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 1,459
Last seen: 11 years, 7 months
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Re: dear right wingers [Re: Silversoul]
#4489104 - 08/03/05 09:36 AM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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The Fair Tax includes a rebate for all American up to the poverty level. People making the poverty level would thus pay no taxes.
The Fair Tax is a progressive consumption tax. Not only would people who spend more pay more in taxes, their consumption would also be taxed at a marginally higher rate.
The rebate function is the kicker. I encourage people to check out the plan without regards to ideology.
And I agree with Phred that this plan has little chance of passing Congress, even a Congress dominated by Conservatives. The rich like their tax loopholes.
John Kerry's wife paid 12.5% of her income in taxes under our "progressive" system, even though she is one of the richest women int he world. She isn't the only one to take advantage of our system. In comparison, a guy getting a minimum wage job right out of highschool pays a combined 15.3% in FICA taxes alone. We have quite a "progessive" system.
Another thing that I like is that Illegal Aliens pay the tax, and they receive no rebate. This puts them in the highest bracket of taxation. It is a nice way to get them to pay their fare share.
I can't say enough about this plan.
Congress loves their power. They love to give tax breaks and special treatment to some corporations and not others. In this way the beltway has turned into one big special interest bonanza, with everyone competing for their own slice of the pie. Only that pie is your tax dollars.
The Fair Tax eliminates all corporate taxes, and levels the playing field for every business. No longer does one company benefit at the expense of another because of government influence. No special tax breaks for the special interest spenders.
If the tax breaks were taken away from every corporation, as is done under the fair tax plan, all that corporate special interest money will dry up. It will give us elections with less outside influence and coruption.
I could go on all day.
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Tastes just like chicken
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JesusChrist
Son Of God
Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 1,459
Last seen: 11 years, 7 months
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A national sales tax
A national sales tax
George Will
March 31, 2005
WASHINGTON -- The power to tax involves, as Chief Justice John Marshall said, the power to destroy. So does the power of tax reform, which is one reason why Rep. John Linder, a Georgia Republican, has a 133-page bill to replace 55,000 pages of tax rules.
His bill would abolish the IRS and the many billions of tax forms it sends out and receives. He would erase the federal income tax system -- personal and corporate income taxes, the regressive payroll tax and self-employment tax, capital gains, gift and estate taxes, the alternative minimum tax and the earned income tax credit -- and replace all that with a 23 percent national sales tax on personal consumption. That would not only sensitize consumers to the cost of government with every purchase, it would destroy K Street.
``K Street'' is shorthand for Washington's lawyer-lobbyist complex. It exists to continually complicate and defend the tax code, which is a cornucopia from which the political class pours benefits on constituencies. By replacing the income tax -- Linder had better repeal the 16th Amendment, to make sure the income tax stays gone -- everyone and all businesses would pay their taxes through economic choices, and K Street's intellectual capital, which consists of knowing how to game the tax code, would be radically depreciated.
Under his bill, he says, all goods, imported and domestic, would be treated equally at the checkout counter, and all taxpayers -- including upward of 50 million foreign visitors annually -- would pay ``as much as they choose, when they choose, by how they choose to spend.'' And his bill untaxes the poor by including an advanced monthly rebate, for every household, equal to the sales tax on consumption of essential goods and services, as calculated by the government, up to the annually adjusted poverty level.
Today the percentage of taxpayers who rely on professional tax preparers is at an all-time high. The 67 percent of tax filers who do not itemize may think they avoid compliance costs, which include nagging uncertainty about whether one has properly complied with a tax code about the meaning of which experts differ. But everyone pays the cost of the tax system's vast drag on the economy.
Linder says Americans spend 7 billion hours a year filling out IRS forms and at least that much calculating the tax implications of business decisions. Economic growth suffers because corporate boards waste huge amounts of time on such calculations rather than making economically rational allocations of resources. Money saved on compliance costs would fund job creation.
Corporations do not pay payroll and income taxes and compliance costs, they collect them from consumers through prices. So the 23 percent consumption tax would allow taxpayers to stop paying the huge embedded cost of corporate taxation. Linder says the director of the Congressional Budget Office told him it costs individuals and businesses about $500 billion to remit $2 trillion to Washington. And studies show that it costs the average small business $724 to collect and remit $100.
In 1945, corporations paid more than one-third of the government's revenues. Now they pay only 11 percent because corporations, especially multinationals, are voluntary taxpayers. In a world increasingly without borders that block capital movements, corporations pay where the burden is lowest. Linder says $6 trillion in offshore accounts would have an incentive to come home under his plan.
Furthermore, by ending payroll and corporate taxes, America would become the only nation selling goods with no tax component -- such as Europe's value added tax -- in their prices. With no taxes on capital and labor, multinationals would, Linder thinks, stampede to locate here, which would be an incentive for other nations to emulate America. ``This,'' Linder says, ``would unleash freedom around the globe.''
Critics argue that ending the income tax, with its deductibility of charitable contributions, would depress giving. Linder says: Piffle. In 1980, when the top personal income tax rate was 70 percent, a huge incentive for giving, individual charitable contributions were $40.7 billion. In 1986 the top rate was reduced to 28 percent, and by 1988 charitable giving was $86.7 billion. The lesson, says Linder, is that we give more money when we have more money.
When Speaker Dennis Hastert published a book last year, he was startled that interviewers were most interested in talking about Linder's bill, which then had 54 co-sponsors. This year Hastert added Linder to the Ways and Means Committee. Linder cheerfully says his bill would reduce Ways and Means to ``a B committee'' by ending the political fun of making the tax code ever more baroque for the benefit of K Street's clients. Bliss.
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Tastes just like chicken
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Ok, so the rebate protects the poor, but that just shifts the burden to the middle class. And of course, having the rebate means they have to jack up this tax that much higher to pay for it. I do like the fact that it simplifies the tax code, but I think a flat tax would be more preferable in that respect.
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shatt
Thats "Sirshatt" to you.
Registered: 08/01/05
Posts: 19
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I am just curious to hear what those who say this wont work think what WILL work? If you dont have a solution, then it is easy to say this wont work. What will work then? Lets hear it!
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: dear right wingers [Re: shatt]
#4489169 - 08/03/05 09:58 AM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
shatt said:
I am just curious to hear what those who say this wont work think what WILL work? If you dont have a solution, then it is easy to say this wont work. What will work then? Lets hear it!
clicky
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JesusChrist
Son Of God
Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 1,459
Last seen: 11 years, 7 months
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Outsourcing and Employment [Re: Silversoul]
#4489274 - 08/03/05 10:42 AM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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Outsourcing and Employment
I would like to address how the Fair Tax speaks to controversial issues such as ?outsourcing? and national employment.
It has been estimated that over 20% of the cost of the products that we buy are taxes. If you buy a product at the Home Depot, roughly 20% or more of the cost you are paying is going to both taxes and the cost of tax compliance. It is a hidden cost embedded in every product that you buy.
If you buy a coke out of the machine, part of the money that you pay goes to federal highways, PBS grants, agricultural subsidies to large agribusiness, and every other federal program that you can think of. That cost is hidden in the price, and it is there because of taxes to the businesses that make the product.
Eliminating those taxes will be beneficial to every business. It will instantly make our goods more competitive in world markets.
Think about it this way. What if the cost of American goods went down by 20% tomorrow? What effect do you think that would have on world markets?
The obvious answer is: the rest of the world would buy more of our products. What would happen to the dreaded trade deficit? You guessed it, it would go away.
Think about another issue. What if American corporations were not subject to federal taxes? Why would they want to leave in droves and locate in tax havens? They wouldn?t have too. We could keep our own companies in place, and at the same time attract the capital of foreign corporations.
What effect would these developments have on national employment? More exports, more companies locating here, and more jobs? What about our manufacturing base, and the ability to attract higher paying jobs? You see where I am going with this.
I am telling you, the Fair Tax is fucking strong baby.
The progressive income tax was part of Karl Marx's platform in the Communist Manifesto. The problem is Karl Marx was writing an economic plan for closed 19th century agrarian economies. We live in the 21st century in a global economy. It is time to start acting like it. We have a tax code that hurts all of our best interests, and it gives companies an incentive to export profits and jobs instead of well made goods.
Fucking Strong! Think about it with an open mind. This is a great idea.
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Tastes just like chicken
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shatt
Thats "Sirshatt" to you.
Registered: 08/01/05
Posts: 19
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Re: dear right wingers [Re: Silversoul]
#4489278 - 08/03/05 10:43 AM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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^ I read the first 3 pages of that thread, and i guess my only qustion is that i live in an area of the country where property value is literally increasing 100% in a year in some places. A bad year here is an increase of like 20%. So, these people who own these homes and land (its the land that is increasing not so much the homes) would have to pay out of their ass in taxes to keep up with the sky rocketing prices of their land?
Is that correct?
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: dear right wingers [Re: shatt]
#4489394 - 08/03/05 11:18 AM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
shatt said:
^ I read the first 3 pages of that thread, and i guess my only qustion is that i live in an area of the country where property value is literally increasing 100% in a year in some places. A bad year here is an increase of like 20%. So, these people who own these homes and land (its the land that is increasing not so much the homes) would have to pay out of their ass in taxes to keep up with the sky rocketing prices of their land?
Is that correct?
Well, I don't want to derail this thread too much, but I will say that a likely reason that property values are skyrocketing in your area so much is probably land speculation, which the land value tax would put an end to.
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Outsourcing and Employment [Re: JesusChrist]
#4489454 - 08/03/05 11:34 AM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
JesusChrist said:
Outsourcing and Employment
I would like to address how the Fair Tax speaks to controversial issues such as ?outsourcing? and national employment.
It has been estimated that over 20% of the cost of the products that we buy are taxes. If you buy a product at the Home Depot, roughly 20% or more of the cost you are paying is going to both taxes and the cost of tax compliance. It is a hidden cost embedded in every product that you buy.
If you buy a coke out of the machine, part of the money that you pay goes to federal highways, PBS grants, agricultural subsidies to large agribusiness, and every other federal program that you can think of. That cost is hidden in the price, and it is there because of taxes to the businesses that make the product.
Do you realize what a sales tax is? It's a tax levied on businesses, which then pass the cost onto the consumer, just like the taxes you're describing.
Quote:
Eliminating those taxes will be beneficial to every business. It will instantly make our goods more competitive in world markets.
Not if you just replace those taxes with a sales tax.
Quote:
Think about it this way. What if the cost of American goods went down by 20% tomorrow? What effect do you think that would have on world markets?
It would be a vast improvement, which is why I support the land value tax, rather than a national sales tax, as the LVT does not distort free market prices.
Quote:
Think about another issue. What if American corporations were not subject to federal taxes? Why would they want to leave in droves and locate in tax havens? They wouldn?t have too. We could keep our own companies in place, and at the same time attract the capital of foreign corporations.
Where are you getting this idea that corporations wouldn't pay the national sales tax? They pay it, and pass the cost onto the consumer.
Quote:
What effect would these developments have on national employment? More exports, more companies locating here, and more jobs? What about our manufacturing base, and the ability to attract higher paying jobs? You see where I am going with this.
I admire your enthusiasm, but I'm afraid it's a bit misplaced. Any gains we might make in production would be a loss to the consumers. Don't forget that the workers are the consumers, so there's little if any net gain here.
Quote:
The progressive income tax was part of Karl Marx's platform in the Communist Manifesto.
It's been a while since I've read Marx, but I'm pretty sure that came right out of your ass.
Quote:
The problem is Karl Marx was writing an economic plan for closed 19th century agrarian economies.
No, he was writing for 19th century industrial economies.
Quote:
We live in the 21st century in a global economy. It is time to start acting like it. We have a tax code that hurts all of our best interests, and it gives companies an incentive to export profits and jobs instead of well made goods.
I'm certainly no fan of our current tax code, and you may yet convince me that the FairTax is superior to what we have now. But I am far from convinced that this is the best alternative.
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shatt
Thats "Sirshatt" to you.
Registered: 08/01/05
Posts: 19
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Re: Outsourcing and Employment [Re: Silversoul]
#4489493 - 08/03/05 11:43 AM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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paradigm - i live in south florida where the land is being bought up everywhere you look. The land is increasing in value faster than they can even keep up with it. People are earning money by the value of their land increasing so much. I dont see how the LVT would help them in any way.
Not trying to derail anything, i am just questioning what you gave as an alternative. Thanks for sharing though, i leanred something from it. Certainly not convinced though.
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