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OfflineProsgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?

Registered: 01/28/05
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Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
Guantanamo trials are rigged
    #4484751 - 08/02/05 11:15 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

First changes are felt by those that the public will have little concern about. Precedents are being established, procedures are being tried and refined that will gradually find their way into common usage. This is the nature of the growth of state power in democratic societies, to think otherwise is to deny history and emotionally shield oneself with willful ignorance. The Stalinization of the U.S. legal systems continues apace...

##########

Leaked Emails Claim Guantanamo Trials Rigged
From ABC News Online by North America correspondent Leigh Sales
Quote:

Leaked emails from two former prosecutors claim the military commissions set up to try detainees at Guantanamo Bay are rigged, fraudulent, and thin on evidence against the accused.

Two emails, which have been obtained by the ABC, were sent to supervisors in the Office of Military Commissions in March of last year - three months before Australian detainee David Hicks was charged and five months before his trial began.

The first email is from prosecutor Major Robert Preston to his supervisor.

Maj Preston writes that the process is perpetrating a fraud on the American people, and that the cases being pursued are marginal.

"I consider the insistence on pressing ahead with cases that would be marginal even if properly prepared to be a severe threat to the reputation of the military justice system and even a fraud on the American people," Maj Preston wrote.

"Surely they don't expect that this fairly half-arsed effort is all that we have been able to put together after all this time."

Maj Preston says he cannot continue to work on a process he considers morally, ethically and professionally intolerable.

"I lie awake worrying about this every night," he wrote.

"I find it almost impossible to focus on my part of mission.

"After all, writing a motion saying that the process will be full and fair when you don't really believe it is kind of hard, particularly when you want to call yourself an officer and lawyer."

Maj Preston was transferred out of the Office of Military Commissions less than a month later.

Rigged?

The second email is written by another prosecutor, Captain John Carr, who also ended up leaving the department.

Capt Carr says the commissions appear to be rigged.

"When I volunteered to assist with this process and was assigned to this office, I expected there would at least be a minimal effort to establish a fair process and diligently prepare cases against significant accused," he wrote.

"Instead, I find a half-hearted and disorganised effort by a skeleton group of relatively inexperienced attorneys to prosecute fairly low-level accused in a process that appears to be rigged."

Capt Carr says that the prosecutors have been told by the chief prosecutor that the panel sitting in judgment on the cases would be handpicked to ensure convictions.

"You have repeatedly said to the office that the military panel will be handpicked and will not acquit these detainees and that we only needed to worry about building a record for the review panel," he said.

Significant find

David Hicks' defence lawyer, Major Michael Mori, says the documents are "highly significant".

"For the first time, we're seeing that concerns about the fairness of the military commissions extend to the heart of the process," Maj Mori said.

David Hicks's father, Terry, says the latest revelations confirm what he has suspected all along.

"These commissions weren't set up to release people," he said.

"These commissions were set up to make sure they were prosecuted and get the time that they give them, and the other thing we've said all along, that we believe that this system has been rigged as they call it."

But the Pentagon's Brigadier General Thomas Hemingway, who is a legal advisor to the military commissions, says an investigation has found the comments are based on miscommunication, misunderstanding and personality conflicts.

He says changes have been made in the prosecutors' office.

"I think what we did is work on some restructuring in the office, there was some changes in the way cases were processed, but we found no evidence of any criminal misconduct, we found no evidence of any ethical violations," he said.

Brig Gen Hemingway says he does not know if the Australian Government has been informed of the claims.

"I can't tell you whether they were informed formally, I have so many contacts with representatives of your embassy here in town, the exchange of information has certainly been constant, open and significant but whether or not we got down into the details of this, I really have no recollection," he said.

"We certainly would have shared it with them if we found that there was any evidence of misconduct in the office of the prosecution, but we did not find any such evidence."

'Sufficient evidence'

Brig Gen Hemingway denies that the cases being prosecuted are low-level.

"All of the cases I have recommended that the appointing authority refer to trial, are cases upon which I thought there was sufficient evidence to warrant sending to a fact-finder," he said.

"In each of the four cases which have been referred, the appointing authority John Alterburgh made an independent determination that the evidence was sufficient to warrant trial."

He also denies that the commission panels are being hand-picked to insure detainees are not acquitted.

"I can tell you that any such assertion is clearly incorrect," he said.

"There is absolutely no evidence that it is rigged."




--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Guantanamo trials are rigged [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4484885 - 08/02/05 12:28 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

This would bear more importance if some of these prisoners could even get a trial to begin with. Unfortunately, out government seems ready to hold all of them indefinitely.


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Invisibleroby000
me
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Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 9,189
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Re: Guantanamo trials are rigged [Re: Redstorm]
    #4484973 - 08/02/05 01:03 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

awww poor little terrorists, they want the same rights as the citizens they aspire to kill. thats so cute.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
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Re: Guantanamo trials are rigged [Re: roby000]
    #4484985 - 08/02/05 01:06 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

roby000 said:
awww poor little terrorists, they want the same rights as the citizens they aspire to kill. thats so cute.



Quote:

Prosgeopax said:
First changes are felt by those that the public will have little concern about. Precedents are being established, procedures are being tried and refined that will gradually find their way into common usage. This is the nature of the growth of state power in democratic societies, to think otherwise is to deny history and emotionally shield oneself with willful ignorance. The Stalinization of the U.S. legal systems continues apace...




--------------------


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Invisibleroby000
me
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Registered: 02/28/05
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Re: Guantanamo trials are rigged [Re: Silversoul]
    #4484998 - 08/02/05 01:11 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

first they came for the nazis then they came for the comunists then they came for the terrorists and then they will come for me!!! ahhh! naw ill just be ignroant and compliant and not be a dick. this aint court tv this is a pow trial and a pow camp. they will probably execute them after the trial if they dont speak in interogation. but ask yourself what they did to get there. it was alot more than a possesion charge or protesting like a hippy.
guantanamo is the bad side of the goverment, its necessary so if it dosnet concern you dont worry about it.


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Invisibleroby000
me
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Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 9,189
Loc: nazi poland
Re: Guantanamo trials are rigged [Re: roby000]
    #4485008 - 08/02/05 01:15 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

"The Stalinization of the U.S. legal systems continues apace..."

hahahahahahaahaha  right.    and the republicans are the sith. :whatever:


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Guantanamo trials are rigged [Re: roby000]
    #4485024 - 08/02/05 01:19 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

You do realize many of them are not confirmed terrorists, but people swept up off the streets?

Perhaps you should know what you're talking about before you contribute nothing to the thread.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 6 months, 7 days
Re: Guantanamo trials are rigged [Re: Redstorm]
    #4485038 - 08/02/05 01:24 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Yes, yes trials for all enemy combatants, in or out of uniform. Every body gets a trial. It's a legal matter. Sure. How about this. Forget any information value they have, shoot them all on sight in the field. That way we won't have to listen to the handwringing twits whine incessantly about the rights of thugs.


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OfflineProsgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1,258
Loc: Appearing at a mall near ...
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
Re: Guantanamo trials are rigged [Re: roby000]
    #4485043 - 08/02/05 01:26 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

To cite but one example of government encroachment, are you aware of the nature and history of asset forfeiture laws and their application in an increasingly broader scope then originally 'intended'?


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 6 months, 7 days
Re: Guantanamo trials are rigged [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4485054 - 08/02/05 01:29 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Prosgeopax said:
To cite but one example of government encroachment, are you aware of the nature and history of asset forfeiture laws and their application in an increasingly broader scope then originally 'intended'?




What are you refering to here? Kelo? DWI vehicle seizures? assets of criminal activities (dealers, mobsters, murderer's books)?


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Registered: 01/01/05
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Re: Guantanamo trials are rigged [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4485074 - 08/02/05 01:34 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

The right to a fair trial is more than a right. It's a matter of national security. A fair trial makes us certain who's guilty and who is innocent. If we punish people without being certain of their guilt, we are not only risking the possibility of punishing an innocent man, but we also risk having the real guilty person still at large. That puts us in jeapordy. These secret trials are making us less safe, not more.


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OfflineProsgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1,258
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Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
Re: Guantanamo trials are rigged [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4485094 - 08/02/05 01:41 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Assets taken from casual pot smokers, assets taken from farmers under the accusation of inadvertently destroying some wild life habitat. The law enforcement shooting to death of a man in Ventura County, CA (if memory serves) - instigated on the unfounded allegation of marijuana growing and because his property abutted public lands that the government wanted. These and many other transgressions committed in direct opposition to the spirit and the letter of the 5th amendment, merely because of the government terming asset forfeiture a civil matter and not a criminal matter. Thereby shifting the legal burden of proof to the accused to prove (or provide a preponderance of evidence) that he did not commit a crime - when logic tells us that proving a negative is an untenable proposition.


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 6 months, 7 days
Re: Guantanamo trials are rigged [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4485145 - 08/02/05 01:59 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Do you have a link to any one of these?


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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: Guantanamo trials are rigged [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4485243 - 08/02/05 02:23 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Sheep #1: Oh, oh! Please take MY assets.

Sheep #2: *Steps forward pushing aside Sheep #1* No, no! Take mine. My property is what you want!


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineSycronica
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Re: Guantanamo trials are rigged [Re: Swami]
    #4485272 - 08/02/05 02:33 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Of course the terror trials are rigged. The civilian trials are rigged too. If you have lots of cash you get the best representation possible. If you are poor you get fucked. The law is rigged to help the rich and no one gives a fuck, why would anyone care if it's rigged for terrorists?  :nonono:


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Think for yourself. Question authority.

Forgiveness is the ultimate sacrifice.

You can fool some people sometimes, but you can't fool all the people all the time.


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Offlinelonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
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Re: Guantanamo trials are rigged [Re: Swami]
    #4485436 - 08/02/05 03:11 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Sheep #1: Oh, oh! Please take MY assets.

Sheep #2: *Steps forward pushing aside Sheep #1* No, no! Take mine. My property is what you want!







Sheep 3# lost his head





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America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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OfflineProsgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1,258
Loc: Appearing at a mall near ...
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
Re: Guantanamo trials are rigged [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4485567 - 08/02/05 03:41 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)



--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 6 months, 7 days
Re: Guantanamo trials are rigged [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4485666 - 08/02/05 04:04 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Some of these seem pretty fucked up but there is also a credibility issue first of all with the website and second with poor old Sam whining that he didn't know what he was signing when he pled guilty. You must really be screaming about Kelo. I know I am and so are a lot of other conservatives. Liberals like it though.


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OfflineProsgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1,258
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Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
Re: Guantanamo trials are rigged [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4485715 - 08/02/05 04:20 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Eminent domain is ANOTHER example of increasing government encroachment past the original intent of the law.


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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Invisibleafoaf
CEO DBK?
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Registered: 11/08/02
Posts: 32,665
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Re: Guantanamo trials are rigged [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4487286 - 08/03/05 12:04 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

c'mon.

they just passed legislation that allows local law enforcement
to keep a fraction (or all, I don't recall) of the assets that they
seize from people.

this creates an incentive for broke ass departments to manufacture
grounds upon which they can seize personal property.

THERE SHOULD NEVER BE INCENTIVES TO STEALING FROM THE
CITIZENRY.

it's just fucking ludicrous...just like thinking all these people in
quantanamo are thugs, terrorists or just deserve to be killed
outright.



--------------------
All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


Edited by afoaf (08/03/05 12:04 AM)


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