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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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Do you support the war on drugs?
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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CEO DBK? Registered: 11/08/02 Posts: 32,665 Loc: Ripple's Heart |
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wtf?
-------------------- All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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How Washington Funded the Taliban
by Ted Galen Carpenter Wednesday, Dec. 03, 2003 at 7:21 PM The United States has made common cause with an assortment of dubious regimes around the world to wage the war on drugs. Perhaps the most shocking example was Washington's decision in May 2001 to financially reward Afghanistan's infamous Taliban government for its edict ordering a halt to the cultivation of opium poppies. When the Taliban implemented a ban on opium cultivation in early 2001, U.S. officials were most complimentary. James P. Callahan, director of Asian Affairs for the State Department's Bureau of International Narcotics and Law Enforcement Affairs, uncritically relayed the alleged accounts of Afghan farmers that "the Taliban used a system of consensus-building" to develop and carry out the edict. That characterization was more than a little suspect because the Taliban was not known for pursuing consensus in other aspects of its rule. Columnist Robert Scheer was justifiably scathing in his criticism of the U.S. response. "That a totalitarian country can effectively crack down on its farmers is not surprising," Sheer noted, but he considered it "grotesque" for a U.S. official to describe the drug-crop crackdown in such benign terms. Yet the Bush administration did more than praise the Taliban's proclaimed ban of opium cultivation. In mid-May, 2001, Secretary of State Colin Powell announced a $43 million grant to Afghanistan in addition to the humanitarian aid the United States had long been providing to agencies assisting Afghan refugees. Given Callahan's comment, there was little doubt that the new stipend was a reward for Kabul's anti-drug efforts. That $43 million grant needs to be placed in context. Afghanistan's estimated gross domestic product was a mere $2 billion. The equivalent financial impact on the U.S. economy would have required an infusion of $215 billion. In other words, $43 million was very serious money to Afghanistan's theocratic masters. To make matters worse, U.S. officials were naive to take the Taliban edict at face value. The much-touted crackdown on opium poppy cultivation appears to have been little more than an illusion. Despite U.S. and UN reports that the Taliban had virtually wiped out the poppy crop in 2000-2001, authorities in neighboring Tajikistan reported that the amounts coming across the border were actually increasing. In reality, the Taliban gave its order to halt cultivation merely to drive up the price of opium the regime had already stockpiled. Even if the Taliban had tried to stem cultivation for honest reasons, U.S. cooperation with that regime should have been morally repugnant. Among other outrages, the Taliban government prohibited the education of girls, tortured and executed political critics, and required non-Muslims to wear distinctive clothing--a practice eerily reminiscent of Nazi Germany's requirement that Jews display the Star of David on their clothing. Yet U.S. officials deemed none of that to be a bar to cooperation with the Taliban on drug policy. Even if the Bush administration had not been dissuaded by moral considerations, it should have been by purely pragmatic concerns. There was already ample evidence in the spring of 2001 that the Taliban was giving sanctuary to Osama bin Laden's al-Qaeda network that had bombed two U.S. embassies in East Africa. For the State Department to ignore that connection and agree to subsidize the Taliban was inexcusably obtuse. Scheer was on the mark when he concluded, "The war on drugs has become our own fanatics' obsession and easily trumps all other concerns." Washington's approach came to an especially calamitous end in September 2001 when the Taliban regime was linked to bin Laden's terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon that killed some 3,000 people. Moreover, evidence quickly emerged that the Taliban all along had been collecting millions of dollars in profits from the illicit drug trade, with much of that money going into the coffers of the terrorists. Rarely is there such graphic evidence of the bankruptcy of U.S. drug policy www.cato.org/dailys/08-02-02.html _________________ If you support the war on drugs you support torture! Anyone that supports the war on drugs is a sadist that does not deserve to live, they should never control the governments of any nations.
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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Saudi Arabian Justice - Torturing and Beheading Drug Trafficers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- RIYADH, Saudi Arabia (AP) -- Three Saudi security guards were beheaded Sunday in northern Saudi Arabia after being convicted of trafficking in hashish and using government vehicles to transport the drug, the Interior Ministry said. Khamis bin Mabrouk al-Sayeri, Nasser bin Mohammed al-Fahadi and Zidan al-Oqaili al-Anzi were arrested loading an undisclosed amount of hashish into vehicles belonging to Saudi border guards, officials said.... http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/....ap/index.html http://www.cyburbia.org/forums/showthread.php?t=13603 _________________ If you support the war on drugs you support torture! Anyone that supports the war on drugs is a sadist that does not deserve to live, they should never control the governments of any nations.
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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Son Of God Registered: 02/19/04 Posts: 1,459 Last seen: 11 years, 4 months |
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I voted for "duh", and I am proud to admit it.
-------------------- Tastes just like chicken
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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The sad part is one person voted for "yes"
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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My point is there is no popular support for the war on drugs. Any true democracy would not have supported the war on drugs to begin with.
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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Zhou Jianxiong, a 30 year-old agricultural worker from Chunhua township in Hunan province, died under torture on 15 May 1998. Detained on 13 May, he was tortured by officials from the township birth control office to make him reveal the whereabouts of his wife, suspected of being pregnant without permission. Zhou was hung upside down, repeatedly whipped and beaten with wooden clubs, burned with cigarette butts, branded with soldering irons, and had his genitals ripped off. (1)
This horrific case of abuse is not an isolated case. Every year many people die due to torture in China. Others survive the torture but continue to suffer the long-term effects of the physical and mental traumas they have endured. Torture and ill-treatment of detainees and prisoners is widespread and systemic in China. Such abuses have been reported in the full range of state institutions, from police stations, detention centres, prisons, to administrative ''re-education through labour'' camps, internal migrant ''custody and repatriation centres'', and enforced drug rehabilitation centres. Torture is also frequently reported as an integral part of the abuse of ''non-custodial'' control measures such as ''residential supervision'' and during ''special isolation'' of officials during investigations into allegations of corruption. These abuses do not only occur behind closed doors. They have often been perpetrated by officials in the course of their normal duties in full public view, and sometimes as a deliberate public humiliation and warning to others. They are perpetrated by a growing range of officials outside the criminal justice system, including family planning officials and tax collectors. Chinese law punishes torture and ill-treatment as a crime in some specific circumstances only. Many perpetrators acting in an official capacity, such as part-time, contracted or seconded security staff, are specifically excluded from prosecution for crimes of torture. In practice, even those who can be pursued for criminal responsibility under the law often escape prosecution or receive only light punishments. In recent years, victims of torture have included many people who simply became involved in disputes with officials, questioning their authority or attempting to uphold their rights. Officials have resorted to torture in the collection of fines and taxes. Torture as part of blackmail and extortion by corrupt officials is also frequently reported. Migrant workers, particularly young women, are easy prey and frequent victims. Reports of torture increase during periodic ''strike hard'' campaigns against specific crimes when police are clearly given the green light to use ''every means'' to achieve ''quick results''. Torture and ill-treatment are prevalent during high profile political campaigns such as the crackdown on the banned Falun Gong organization. On the few occasions when officials have responded to the detailed testimonies provided by victims and their families, they have issued contradictory statements or absolute denials of wrongdoing. There is little indication that allegations have been thoroughly investigated. Such indifference may be interpreted as official acquiescence in torture and ill-treatment when it is undertaken during national priority campaigns. It calls into question the government's sincerity in the fight against torture. All citizens deserve and must be provided with protection against torture. Torture during interrogation is perpetrated against all types of detainees, including high profile cases. Torture and ill-treatment is also common in prisons and labour camps where prisoners are serving criminal or ''administrative'' sentences. Forced labour and ''acknowledgment of guilt'' are central to penal policy, generating an environment where prisoners are often abused. Particularly harsh treatment is inflicted on common criminal prisoners and political prisoners who are deemed to be ''resisting reform''. Prison guards often delegate disciplinary duties to selected prisoners or ''cell bosses'' who are routinely responsible for abusing other prisoners, often at the direction of the guards. In recent years, the Chinese media has played an increasingly important role in exposing cases of torture and ill-treatment. Some key newspapers no longer wait for an official investigation before reporting a story, and cases where victims and their families have been battling for years for justice against official obstruction and indifference have been resolved following media reporting. There is growing debate on the abuse of power by police, loopholes in citizens' legal protection, and the horrors of certain types of detention. This report presents a representative cross section of the many hundreds of cases of torture in China monitored by Amnesty International in the last few years. It examines the reasons why torture continues in China, analysing the legal framework for the prosecution of crimes of torture and the protection of detainees, and describing inadequacies in law and practice. The report presents detailed recommendations about the reforms needed to eradicate torture, based on international standards. 2. PATTERNS OF TORTURE: PERPETRATORS, LOCATIONS AND VICTIMS 2.1) Torture ''To Coerce Confessions'' During Interrogation ''Torture to coerce confessions'' has reportedly been ''prohibited'' in China since 1958 and has been a criminal offence in some circumstances since 1979 (See Section 4.1 below).(2) Despite this, it remains commonplace. Torture to extract testimony from alleged witnesses or accomplices, is also frequently reported. The persistent use of torture to extract confessions or testimony has been the subject of commentaries in the Chinese legal press since the mid-1980s. Recent articles have condemned current official attitudes and institutionalized work practices which foster the use of torture. On 4 June 2000, for example, following the sentencing to death of a policeman for torturing a suspect to death, the Legal Daily condemned the prevalence of torture and ill-treatment by officials in China, blaming existing systems for rewarding and promoting police and judicial officials, including the exclusive focus on 'cracking cases' at all costs. The article suggested that, in an era of rule by law, more appropriate indicators of official performance might: be how many injustices had been redressed or innocents released in a year. Extracts from this article are cited below [some parts are underlined by us in bold]. ''Why have the phenomena of extracting confessions by torture and other illegal handling of cases repeatedly occurred during our country's initial phase of developing socialism ? This is more than just a chronic illness of history or the influence of legal culture, the real problem is that 'solving cases wins prizes, cracking cases earns merit, no matter what methods are used'. Some of our judicial and enforcement departments are permeated from top to bottom with this 'concept of perverting the law to gain reward'... For several years, the judicial and enforcement departments' systems for appraisal and conferring merits, promotion based on meritorious service, fixing targets solely on the cracking of cases, and the traditional methods of finding somebody to fit the crime (geiren zhizui) have undoubtedly been the greatest causes of abuse of the law and illegal administration of the law. When using cruel punishments, threats and bribes is the most effective way to extract confessions, and solving cases and gaining merits is the most effective shortcut to promotion and higher position. Then the key becomes simply to master the limits: to torture without killing, and to extract confessions without maiming the victims... Torture to extract confessions has not been limited to public security police enforcing the law but has sometimes spread to personnel in the state legal supervisory organs responsible for guaranteeing the lawful rights and interests of citizens. Not only do they use torture to fabricate false evidence and generate miscarriages of justice in their quest to distinguish themselves and receive merits, they do not overlook opportunities to make money from parties to cases either. Every year, certain law enforcement organs use 'the number of cases resolved', 'the number of people detained' and 'the amount of property confiscated' to gain political advance through praise and commendation from their superiors, and the leaders of many units gain promotion this way. Therefore, what is required is the filing of a case, and whether during investigation or trial, all most probably veer towards pursuing a person's guilt at all costs. In recent years, in particular areas this has developed to a point where 'a case is filed first in the absence of a crime, and where there is no crime, one is still established'. Targeting this tendency, could we not turn things around and advocate using 'the number of unjust cases redressed', and 'the number of innocent people rescued' as the means of gaining political merit? Today, where it seems that perverting the law demonstrates more ability and secures more rewards, this unfortunately is another way of gaining awards - through defending the law. Guogeli said: "Partiality in the execution of the law is the greatest misfortune in the world" When will those law enforcers who violate the law whilst enforcing it finally respect human life and the masses and not wantonly deprive people of the reputation and dignity that makes them human? This is a problem that everyone involved in law enforcement should consider. Resorting to establishing false cases and fabricating false evidence to entrap people and gain personal merit is the greatest tragedy of the era of rule by law. Those people who are clearly aware of injustices and deliberately, wantonly and perversely commit them, utterly devoid of conscience, are the greatest criminals of a society ruled by law, and if the people do not punish them, the gods certainly will.'' In December 2000, Hou Zongbin, chairman of the NPC Committee for Internal and Judicial Affairs, reported on the findings of National People's Congress (NPC) teams inspecting the implementation of the Criminal Procedure Law in 12 provinces, autonomous regions and municipalities. He acknowledged the extent and severity of the problems of torture to extract confessions, extended detention, and illegal interference by judges prosecutors and police undermining the work of defence lawyers. Torture to extract confessions ''is rather serious in certain places, causing terrible social consequences'' and must be ''conscientiously dealt with rather than tolerated'' he said. Lawyers ''have difficulties meeting their clients, accessing court files relating to their cases, and their reasonable petitions have more often than not been rejected''. He blamed the problems on ''erroneous understanding of the new law'' with many leading officials regarding it as ''too advanced'' for China. He insisted the problems could not be neglected and that internal supervision and restraint mechanisms must be established and improved ''conscientiously working towards a point where there is a law it is obeyed, enforcement is strict, and lawbreakers are prosecuted''. (3) Cases of 'torture to extract confessions' reported in China in the last few years include a high proportion of victims were killed or fatally wounded by torture during interrogation within the first 24 hours of detention. Some of these killings have resulted in high profile prosecutions, but punishment is inconsistent and often lenient ? it frequently consists of a suspended sentence or simple disciplinary sanction, even when the law provides for heavy punishment. In many other cases there has been no investigation. Where the procuratorate does initiate an investigation, it is often blocked by police and other officials (See section 7.2 below). In recent months, the Chinese media has highlighted a series of miscarriages of justice which have resulted from tortured confessions and testimony. These have included several cases where the accused were sentenced to death on the basis of false evidence extracted through torture. In an article entitled ''Incomprehensible detention for eight years'', Southern Weekend (Nanfang Zhuomo) described a case in Quyang county, Hebei province. By the time the article was published on 23 April 1999, Yang Zhijie had been detained for eight years without a judgement because there was insufficient evidence to prove his guilt. On 27 April 1999, however, the Baoding city Intermediate People's Court sentenced him to death, suspended for two years. The main evidence against him was his ''confession'', which Yang Zhijie testified in court had been extracted from him under torture. The court, however, rejected the allegation of torture solely on the basis of a simple written denial by the Quyang county police that they had forced Yang to confess under torture. The newspaper article, however, cited one police officer as more or less admitting that Yang had been tortured. It also pointed at the lack of evidence and inconsistencies in the case against Yang. While the Chinese media is playing an increasingly important role in reporting miscarriages of justice, it is still highly selective and never reports allegations of torture in 'political' cases, despite the high incidence of torture in these cases too. Zhuo Xiaojun (c. private) In one case examined by Amnesty International but never reported in mainland China, a man who has been detained for more than ten years and sentenced to death twice on the basis of contradictory confessions extracted through torture. Zhuo Xiaojun, a 34 year-old Hong Kong citizen detained since 1989, was sentenced to death for the second time on 14 January 2000 after a blatantly unfair trial. He was convicted of ''intentional killing'' by the Fuzhou city Intermediate People's Court, Fujian province, in relation to a fight outside his family home in Changle county, Fujian Province in 1989. During the fight, three people were wounded, two fatally. Although nearly 30 people were present, Zhuo was the only one to be pursued. None of the witnesses to the fight testified at the time to seeing Zhuo stabbing anyone or even carrying a knife, but a relative of one of the initiators of the fight later testified that Zhou had committed the stabbing. Court documents show that the main evidence against Zhuo was his ''confession'' - which Zhou testified had been extracted under torture. According to his testimony, for the first 33 hours in police custody, Zhuo was suspended from handcuffs attached to the bars of a door with his feet locked in 50kg shackles, and was kicked, beaten and attacked with electric batons whenever he failed to follow the script of the ''confession'' prepared by his interrogators. Zhuo later retracted his ''confession'' when he met procurators for the first time, but they reportedly failed to record his allegations of torture, even though procuratorate staff had seen him suspended from the door, and he showed them his wounds, the scars of which reportedly remain visible 10 years later. According to his lawyers and relatives, his alleged ''confession'' is contradicted both by forensic evidence and witnesses' testimony, but neither this nor the allegations of torture were taken into account by the court during the trial. Zhuo was tried for the first time and sentenced to death by the same court in September 1990. On appeal in 1992, Fujian provincial High People's Court overturned the conviction stating the ''facts were not clear'', but instead of ordering Zhuo's release, it returned the case to the original court for a retrial. The new trial began in January 1993, but was adjourned without a judgement for seven years, apparently for ''supplementary investigation''. No new evidence was presented at the second trial in January 2000. Fujian Province High People's Court heard Zhuo Xiaojun's appeal on 28 November 2000 but did not announce their decision. In the two years between his first conviction and successful appeal, Zhuo was reportedly held with his hands and feet shackled together at all times. He is believed to have been shackled in a similar way since his second conviction. His family has never been permitted to visit him in detention, but since 1992 has been instructed to pay for medication for his hepatitis, bleeding stomach and ulcerating skin. Zulikar Memet (c. private) In another case reported to Amnesty International which is similar to those cited above, Zulikar Memet, an ethnic Uighur from Gulja (Yining) city in the Xinjiang Uighur Autonomous Region (XUAR), was sentenced to death in July 1999 after telling the court his ''confession'' had been extracted under torture. Tried before the Ili Prefecture Intermediate People's Court together with other Uighurs accused of involvement in ''separatist'' activities, Zulikar Memet reportedly denied all the accusations against him, stating he had been tortured to force him to ''confess''. He showed the court signs of torture, including missing finger nails which had been pulled out during the torture sessions. The court, ignored the allegations and sentenced him to death. As far as is known, the allegations of torture were never investigated despite international appeals to the authorities calling for an impartial enquiry. Zulikar Memet was reportedly executed on 14 June 2000. His parents were denied access to him throughout his detention since April 1998 and learnt about his execution after it had taken place. In the XUAR, as in Tibet, few political prisoners escape ill-treatment and torture, which is particularly harsh during the early stages of custody and interrogation. Many report being beaten with whatever implement a guard or interrogator can find to hand including gun-butts. Prisoners are often beaten around the head, or kicked in the stomach, lower back and genitals. Some, wearing metal helmets, have had their heads beaten against walls. Kidney and liver ailments are common among prisoners as a result of kicking and beatings by prison guards aimed specifically at these sensitive organs. 2.2) Torture During ''Strike Hard'' And Other Campaigns During periodic ''strike hard'' anti-crime campaigns, police are encouraged to use ''every means possible'' to show results in cracking down on specific crimes. This frequently leads to increased use of torture and an upsurge in violence. For example, several recent incidents where members of the public were shot at and killed by the police have been linked to provincial and local campaigns against car theft. A young couple driving through Yonghan township, in Guangdong province were shot at by police in the early hours of 15 January 2000 after passing a makeshift barrier erected by plain-clothed police who later claimed that they were acting on an internal public security directive to shoot anyone who did not stop. (Urumqi Wanbao 1.2.2000). In Henan province, a businessman from Shandong province, and his bodyguard were killed when police reportedly opened fire with machine guns on their car when it stopped at a tollgate. They had earlier been flagged down by a policeman accompanied by two casual employees, none of whom wore uniform or presented identification. When arrested, the police claimed they were a provincial anti-car theft group on a ''heightened state of alert''. (South China Morning Post, 21.6.99, and other sources). Many reports of illegal detention and torture have been linked to periodic Strike Hard Campaigns against the ''three evils'' (pornography, gambling and drugs). Some police implicated in such cases have asserted that they were acting under orders from their superiors to use the opportunities for profit (see below, section 2.5). Recent detailed reports of miscarriages of justice overturned after several years of campaigning reveal the extent of political intervention and disregard for normal procedures during Strike Hard campaigns. In November 1998, burglary charges against six juvenile suspects were withdrawn by Shuangliao City Public Security Bureau, Jilin Province. The juveniles had been ''investigated'' for three years and detained for over 440 days. Five were pupils at a local middle school where four burglars armed with knives had stolen 1,092 Yuan and a watch from pupils on 2 September 1995. The burglary coincided with a county Strike Hard anti-crime campaign, and county leaders ordered the police to mobilize their best force to crack the case fast. Police detained 17 year old Wang Hongtao on 16 October 1995. They stripped him, whipped him repeatedly and threatened to light a firecracker on his penis. He was denied food water and sleep for three days. The police then told him he would be treated leniently if he repeated a ''voluntary confession'' they rehearsed with him. On the basis of this ''confession'' the police detained six other juveniles, several who had not been in the city on the night of the crime. When one was escorted to the police by his parents to explain the error, he too was detained and beaten until he repeated elements of Wang's confession. The officers who ''cracked'' the case received merit awards for their speedy results. When the suspects retracted their confessions, the officers blamed a conspiracy between the families and other police officers. When the procuratorate returned the case several times for further investigation, local leaders intervened, insisting that the policy of ''quick handling and serious punishment'' be followed. Defence lawyers argued at the trial in June 1996 that there was no direct evidence linking any of the suspects to the crime, only the confessions which were contradictory and full of loopholes. They sought the approval of the provincial lawyers association, the management division of the department of justice and the provincial politics and law committee before presenting a not guilty plea and requesting the defendants' immediate release. Instead the case was returned to the police, via the city procuratorate for further investigation. In April 1998 after investigations by the city People's Congress and Party, the case was finally overturned. Torture and ill-treatment is prevalent during high profile political campaigns such as ongoing crackdown on the banned Falun Gong organization. Reports continue of deaths of detained practitioners following torture and extreme ill-treatment (see below, section 3, Death in Custody). Whereas officials responsible for deaths in custody during normal police operations may be investigated and prosecuted, in all cases where the victims were Falun Gong practitioners, the government has denied any wrongdoing, even in the face of multiple eye witness testimonies. On 7 October 1999 in reply to an urgent action by the UN Special Rapporteur on Torture, the Government reported that ''no beatings or ill-treatment had occurred as a result of the coercive measures taken'' against the Falun Gong and that allegations of beatings, ill-treatment, torture and house arrests were ''sheer fabrications unrelated to the facts'' (4) . In May 2000 Chinese government representatives told the UN Committee against Torture that: ''In the course of dealing with Falun Gong practitioners engaged in illegal activities, the people's police and judicial officers have acted in strict accordance with law. There is no such question as extensive arrests and torture''. Such blanket denials of wrongdoing, with no indication that allegations have been thoroughly investigated, are unconvincing, particularly when practitioners who have sought to publicize cases of torture have suffered severe reprisals, including detention for ''re-education through labour'' (see below, Section 7.4). 2.3) Torture By A Growing Range Of Part-time Police ''Defence'' And ''Security'' Teams A growing range of officials are being cited as perpetrators of torture, including administrative police, judges, court clerks and court police; village and party leaders, members of Mutual Defense Teams (lianfang dui), and many types of security official (bao'an) outside the regular police force but seconded, contracted or working part time for them. These have included Factory Administrative Management Forces (xingzheng guanli zhifu), and Municipal Supervision Brigades (chengguan jiancha zhongdui). In June 1997 members of a public park environmental team in Wu City, Xinjiang XUAR, were ordered to pay medical costs and compensation for damaged clothing totalling 400 Yuan to a man they had detained and beaten with an electric baton for ignoring a sign not to walk on the grass and refusing to hand over his camera in lieu of a fine. The officers clearly did not believe their actions were inappropriate as they launched an unsuccessful counter claim for the fine and compensation for damage to their uniforms. (Xinjiang Fazhibao, 6.6.97). On 7 November 1998, an 18 year old migrant worker from Jiangxi province who had been working in a Shenzhen handicrafts factory for only 3 days, argued with the factory security guards over being reassigned to an overcrowded bedspace. The security guards dragged him to the roof of the five storey building, beat him up and reportedly pushed him off, killing him. Reports claimed this was the fourth such killing in Shenzhen in 1998. (Xinmin Evening News, 15.1.99). http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/engASA170042001?OpenDocument&of=COUNTRIES%5CCHINA
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Rhizome Registered: 01/01/05 Posts: 23,576 Loc: The Barricades |
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Quote: Ya, people on a drug message board are totally a representative sample of the population.
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Not an EggshellWalker Registered: 07/18/03 Posts: 7,991 Loc: Cave of the Patr |
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Quote: What if the people voted to outlaw drugs? Isn't that the point of democracy- letting the people decide? A true democracy could most definitely support the War on Drugs, and I'm willing to bet that if we put it to a vote right now, the majority of Americans would be for continued criminalization. Not to mention, we don't live in a democracy. -------------------- So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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Son Of God Registered: 02/19/04 Posts: 1,459 Last seen: 11 years, 4 months |
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I blame the Jews.
-------------------- Tastes just like chicken
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Seeker Registered: 08/01/05 Posts: 12 Last seen: 18 years, 5 months |
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dont be stupid, its all reagan's fault. god bless him, but fuck his anti-drug policies, youch.
and also, being for/against the war on drugs has nothing to do with islam. your either do or dont care about what people are on (privatly or publicly). its pretty obvious your trying to appeal the typical right winger who hates terrorists more than drugs. you cant trick all of the republicans into thinking their antidrug policies are hurting america. its a fairly sad attempt, find somthing else. -------------------- Brahmanandam, parama sukadam kevalam gyana murtim. Dwandwa ti tam. Gagana sadri shyam, tatwa-ma-sya dri lak shyam. Ekam nityam, vimalam, achalam. Sarvadhi sakshi bhutam. Bhava ti tam triguna rahitam. SAT GURUM TAM NA MA MI. GURU LORD, I BOW TO THEE.
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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Quote: Why not? Are the opinions of the people on this "drug message board" worth less than the facist hypocrites that support the war on drugs?
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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Quote: Thats a big "what if" but I guess if someone like Hitler could be elected anything is possible. My point is people were not allowed to vote on the issue, Nixon decided for them.
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Not an EggshellWalker Registered: 07/18/03 Posts: 7,991 Loc: Cave of the Patr |
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Quote: Not really. A lot of other people are at fault other than Reagan; Reagan's a good scapegoat since he was vocal about it, but the American people voted him in and the conservatives supported him. Not to mention, the War on Drugs had been going on for decades before Reagan ever came to office. Are you still blaming Reagan nowadays? Look at the people who continue the War on Drugs, and try to escalate it many times over. -------------------- So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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Quote: I blame the muslims, and the hypocrites that claim to be Christains like Nixon, Reagan, and Bush.
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Seeker Registered: 08/01/05 Posts: 12 Last seen: 18 years, 5 months |
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no. our opinions are worth just as much. but your treating this situation like our opinions are the only ones that matter... this is a biased poll becuase everyone here does drugs idiot. these figures mean nothing. get an education.
-------------------- Brahmanandam, parama sukadam kevalam gyana murtim. Dwandwa ti tam. Gagana sadri shyam, tatwa-ma-sya dri lak shyam. Ekam nityam, vimalam, achalam. Sarvadhi sakshi bhutam. Bhava ti tam triguna rahitam. SAT GURUM TAM NA MA MI. GURU LORD, I BOW TO THEE.
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Seeker Registered: 08/01/05 Posts: 12 Last seen: 18 years, 5 months |
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yeah your right i shouldnt have said "all reagan's fault". but look at the laws he passed. 90 years in prison (NO PAROL) for cultivation of 10+ marijuana plants????!!!!! WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
construction/possesion of an atomic bomb is only 10 years, with granted parole. ditto with assasinating a president. muder isnt even close to 90 years in a cell. all of these sentances together dont even give you 90 years. its not all his fault, but what a dick move for passing crap like that -------------------- Brahmanandam, parama sukadam kevalam gyana murtim. Dwandwa ti tam. Gagana sadri shyam, tatwa-ma-sya dri lak shyam. Ekam nityam, vimalam, achalam. Sarvadhi sakshi bhutam. Bhava ti tam triguna rahitam. SAT GURUM TAM NA MA MI. GURU LORD, I BOW TO THEE.
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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Quote: Dont be stupid, read my articles on muslim drug policy before you start assuming I am trying to appeal to the "typical right winger". As for the war crimminal reagan's drug policy, it isnt ALL his fault, what about Nixon, Bush, and Clinton? There is plenty of blame to go around.
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Seeker Registered: 08/01/05 Posts: 12 Last seen: 18 years, 5 months |
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i did.
-------------------- Brahmanandam, parama sukadam kevalam gyana murtim. Dwandwa ti tam. Gagana sadri shyam, tatwa-ma-sya dri lak shyam. Ekam nityam, vimalam, achalam. Sarvadhi sakshi bhutam. Bhava ti tam triguna rahitam. SAT GURUM TAM NA MA MI. GURU LORD, I BOW TO THEE.
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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Quote: I do not agree with Ravus very often but this time he is right.
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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Quote: Your wrong, I dont do drugs, not everybody does. I have done them in the past but unlike some people I am not a hypocrite about it. I dont want to have people arrested for something that does no harm.
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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Quote: So why did you call me an idiot?
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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History
Early Drug Laws Although the present War on Drugs is a distinctly modern phenomenon, drug laws have been a common feature of human culture throughout history. Perhaps the earliest recorded example in the Old World is the prohibition of the use of alcohol under Islamic law (Sharia), which is usually attributed to passages in the Qur'an purportedly dating from the 7th century. Although Islamic law is often interpreted as prohibiting all intoxicants (not only alcohol), the ancient practice of hashish smoking has continued throughout the history of Islam, against varying degrees of resistance. A major campaign against hashish-eating Sufis was conducted in Egypt in the 11th and 12th centuries resulting among other things in the burning of fields of cannabis, and the public torture of hashish users (Ref 1). Religious intolerance was also the motivation for drug prohibition in Christian Europe. In a move interpreted as support of the efforts of the Spanish Inquisition against the Arabs, in a 1484 fiat Pope Innocent VIII banned the use of cannabis. The persecution of heretics in the form of witch-hunts also gathered momentum around this time, and frequently targeted users of medicinal and hallucinogenic herbs. The Inquisition proceeded apace in Central America and South America, where peyote, ololiuqui, toloache, teonanacatl and other sacred plants of the Aztec culture were prohibited as works of the devil. In Northern Europe, the Protestants were also guilty of passing drug laws motivated by religious intolerance, according to Stephen Harrod Buhner (Ref 2). Buhner argues that the 1516 Reinheitsgebot, which stipulates that beer may only contain water, malt and hops was a "reflection of Protestant irritation about 'drugs' and the Catholic Church". Unlike the typically stimulating herbal blends widely used at the time (e.g. gruit), hops cause sedation and reduce libido. In 1536 Edward VI commended hopped beer as "notable, healthy and temperate", while the exclusive use of hops had been compulsory in France since 1268 (Ref 3). Coffee almost followed the same fate as cannabis as its use spread from Ethiopia through the Middle East to Europe. Its use was banned in the Middle East on numerous occasions as in conflict with Islamic law, but eventually it came to be accepted. The introduction of coffee in Europe from Muslim Turkey also prompted calls for it to be banned as the Devil's work, however Pope Clement VIII sanctioned its use, declaring that it was "so delicious that it would be a pity to let the infidels have exclusive use of it." In late Qing Imperial China, opium imported by the British East Indian Company was vastly consumed by all social classes in Southern China. Between 1821 and 1837 imports of the drug increased five-fold. The Chinese government attempted to end this trade, on public health grounds. The effort was initially successful with the destruction of all British opium stock in May 1839. However to protect this trade, the British declared war on China (First Opium War). China was defeated and the war which ended with the Treaty of Nanking, in which the opium trade is legalized. The resulting trade greatly weakened Chinese society, and set into motion a chain of events that would lead to the massive Taiping Rebellion. Twentieth century The next great wave of anti-drug legislation began in the late 19th century, and continues to the present day. The United States has been the driving force in the present-day war on drugs. The first law outright prohibiting the use of a specific drug was a San Francisco, California ordinance which banned the smoking of opium in opium dens in 1875. The inspiration was "many women and young girls, as well as young men of respectable family, were being induced to visit the Chinese opium-smoking dens, where they were ruined morally and otherwise." The primary cause of the movement for the law was a moral panic based on a fear of Chinese immigrants and other railroad workers seducing white women with the drug. This was followed by other laws throughout the country, and federal laws which barred Chinese people from trafficking in opium. Though the laws affected the use and distribution of opium by Chinese immigrants, no action was taken against the producers of such products as laudanum, a mixture of opium and alcohol, commonly taken as a panacea by white Americans. The dividing line was usually the manner in which the drug was ingested. Chinese immigrants smoked it, while it was included in various kinds of (generally liquid) medicines for white people. The laws were aimed at smoking opium, but not otherwise ingesting it. 1 (http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/library/studies/cu/cu6.htm) As a result of this discrepancy, modern commentators believe that these laws were racist in origin and intent. Cocaine was prohibited in the first part of the 20th century. Newspapers used terms like "Negro Cocaine Fiends" and "Cocainized Niggers" to drive up sales, causing a nationwide panic about the rape of white women by black men, high on cocaine. Many police forces changed from a .32 caliber to a .38 caliber pistol because the smaller gun was supposedly unable to kill black men when they were high on cocaine. This was followed by the Harrison Act, which required sellers of opiates and cocaine to get a license (which were usually only distributed to white people). The supporters of the Harrison Act did not support blanket prohibition of the drugs involved 1 (http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/library/studies/cu/cu8.html). This is also true of the later Marijuana Tax Act in 1937. Soon, however, the people who were allowed to issue the licenses did not do so, effectively banning the drugs. The American judicial system did not initially accept drug prohibition. Prosecutors argued that possessing drugs was a tax violation, as no legal licenses to sell drugs were in existence; hence, a person possessing drugs must have purchased them from an unlicensed source. After some wrangling, this was accepted as federal jurisdiction under the interstate commerce clause of the U.S. Constitution. The prohibition of alcohol commenced in the United States in 1920 and Finland in 1919. Because alcohol was the most popular recreational drug in these countries, reactions to its prohibition were very different to those of other drugs, which were commonly perceived to be associated with racial and ethnic minorities. Public pressure led to the repealing of alcohol prohibition in 1933 in the United States, 1932 in Finland. Residents of many provinces of Canada also experienced alcohol prohibition for similar periods of time in the first half of the 20th century. In Sweden a referendum in 1922 decided against an alcohol prohibition law (with 51% of the votes against and 49% for prohibition), but starting in 1914 (nationwide from 1917) and until 1955 Sweden employed an alcohol rationing system with personal liquor ration books ("motbok"). 1937 saw the passage of the Marijuana Tax Act. Harry J. Anslinger (Bureau of Narcotics Commissioner) testified in hearings on the subject that the hemp plant needed to be banned because it had a violent "effect on the degenerate races". This specifically referred to Mexican immigrants who had entered the country, seeking jobs during the Great Depression. The law passed quickly and with little debate. The American Medical Association (AMA) protested the law soon after, both on the grounds of actual disagreement with the law and the supporters' lies on the subject; Anslinger and others had claimed the AMA had vocalized support when, in fact, the opposite was true. In response to rising drug use amongst young people and the counter-culture in particular, efforts to enforce prohibition were strengthened in many countries from the late 1960s onwards. In 1972 United States president Richard Nixon announced the commencement of the so-called War on Drugs. Later, President Reagan added the position of drug czar to the President's Executive Office. Lobbying at an international level for the prohibition of non-medical drug use has been a feature of United States policy since the beginnings of the modern War on Drugs in the late 20th century, to such an extent that US support for foreign governments is sometimes contingent on adherence to US drug policy. Major milestones in this campaign include the successful introduction of the Single Convention on Narcotic Drugs in 1961, the Convention on Psychotropic Substances in 1971 and the United Nations Convention Against Illicit Traffic in Narcotic Drugs and Psychotropic Substances in 1988. Methods of enforcement The War on Drugs utilizes several techniques to achieve its goal of eliminating recreational drug use: specialized law enforcement agencies, officers and techniques information campaigns to educate the public on the real or perceived dangers of recreational drug use streamlined enforcement and evidence-gathering procedures The War on Drugs involves action taken against three groups of criminals: Manufacturers (whether through chemical synthesis or agriculture) Traffickers and dealers Users A War on Drugs is usually run like a modern war with police and other law enforcement officers instead of military personnel. The apparatus prepared for the War is ordinarily organized to face guerrilla situations, armed attacks or counter-attacks and bombings. These tactics include espionage, as undercover agents (spies) are used to infiltrate drug use and trafficking circles. Investigation on drug trafficking often begins with the recording of unusually frequent deaths by overdose, monitoring financial flows of suspected traffickers, or by finding concrete elements while inspecting for other purposes. For example, a person pulled over for traffic violations may have illicit drugs in his or her vehicle, thus leading to an arrest and/or investigation of the source of the materials. Most investigations into trafficking or manufacturing are fruitless, and casual users remain at a greater risk of arrest, conviction and imprisonment than others.
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Village Genius Registered: 09/19/03 Posts: 7,935 Loc: San Diego Last seen: 8 years, 7 months |
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I support the war on drugs.
-------------------- Magash's Grain Tek + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs
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Seeker Registered: 08/01/05 Posts: 12 Last seen: 18 years, 5 months |
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if you speak no word of a lie, you have my appology stranger.
little too much alc in this ol belly of mine tonite -------------------- Brahmanandam, parama sukadam kevalam gyana murtim. Dwandwa ti tam. Gagana sadri shyam, tatwa-ma-sya dri lak shyam. Ekam nityam, vimalam, achalam. Sarvadhi sakshi bhutam. Bhava ti tam triguna rahitam. SAT GURUM TAM NA MA MI. GURU LORD, I BOW TO THEE. Edited by Brahmanandam (08/02/05 12:39 AM)
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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Quote: Did you vote?
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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Methods of enforcement
The War on Drugs utilizes several techniques to achieve its goal of eliminating recreational drug use: specialized law enforcement agencies, officers and techniques information campaigns to educate the public on the real or perceived dangers of recreational drug use streamlined enforcement and evidence-gathering procedures The War on Drugs involves action taken against three groups of criminals: Manufacturers (whether through chemical synthesis or agriculture) Traffickers and dealers Users A War on Drugs is usually run like a modern war with police and other law enforcement officers instead of military personnel. The apparatus prepared for the War is ordinarily organized to face guerrilla situations, armed attacks or counter-attacks and bombings. These tactics include espionage, as undercover agents (spies) are used to infiltrate drug use and trafficking circles. Investigation on drug trafficking often begins with the recording of unusually frequent deaths by overdose, monitoring financial flows of suspected traffickers, or by finding concrete elements while inspecting for other purposes. For example, a person pulled over for traffic violations may have illicit drugs in his or her vehicle, thus leading to an arrest and/or investigation of the source of the materials. Most investigations into trafficking or manufacturing are fruitless, and casual users remain at a greater risk of arrest, conviction and imprisonment than others.
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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Wondrous Treatment Of Women In Islam
The purpose of this article is to show how the barbaric nature of Islam manifests itself in the cruel treatment of women. 1. Lets start with the "great" Mohammed himself, the founder of this "fabulous" faith. Mohammed was married to Khadija Bibi, his employer and 15 years his senior. At that time Mohammed was 25 years old. He was Khadija Bibi's third husband. Khadija Bibi was a widow when she married Mohammed. For the first time in his life, Mohammed enjoyed a luxurious life. This shows the parasitic nature of Mohammed who married his employer so that he can live a rich life without putting in a single day's work. 2. Khadija Bibi died when Mohammed was 49 years old. Between the ages of 49 and 63 the "great prophet" married at least 11 times. This shows how he treated the institution of marriage. For him, women were nothing but objects for sexual fulfillment. Marrying at least 11 women in 14 years throws light on his insatiable sexual appetite. Read on about the "greatness" of this prophet. 3. Mohammed's favourite wife was Ayesha Bibi who was 6 years old when she was married to him. Marrying a 6 year old baby clearly shows that Mohammed was not only a womanizer but also a child molester. 4. Mohammed's adopted son Zayed was married to Zainab, daughter of Jahsh. But one day the prophet "beheld in a loose undress, the beauty of Zainab, and burst forth into an ejaculation of devotion and desire. The servile, or greatful, freeman (Zayed) understood the hint and yielded without hesitation to the love of the benefactor." Mohammed was not satisfied with his own overflowing harem and had to marry his son's wife. His son being a devoted follower of the "great" prophet was more than happy to divorce his wife. What a great father-in-law Mohammed was, a model for all Islamic father-in-laws! Mohammed preached what he practised. This is supported by the following verses from Quran and Hadiths. Quotes from the "Holy" Quran on Women II/223: Your women are a tilth for you (to cultivate). So go to your tilth as ye will... Here you can clearly see how highly Islam treats women. Women in Islam are referred to as fields that are to be cultivated by man. What an honour for a Muslim woman! IV/34: Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other.. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. First point to notice here is that Quran clearly states that Men are superior to women. Secondly, Islam instructs that a man should control his women through brutal violence and fear. IV/15: (For women) If any one of your women is guilty of lewdness ...confine them until death claims them. IV/16: (For Men) If two men among you commit indecency (sodomy) punish them both. If they repent and mend their ways, let them be. Allah is forgiving and merciful. As you can see, for women any sort of sexual exploration is punishable by death. Whereas for a man, any form of perversion is pardoned by the all merciful Allah. XXIV/6-7: As for those who accuse their wives but have no witnesses except themselves , let the testimony of one of them be four testimonies... Here we see, that a husband can easily accuse his wife (or wives) and eventually sentence her to death by merely declaring four times that the accusation is true. On the other hand, women have no such right in Islam. Quotes from Hadith TIRMZI AND OTHERS If a woman's conduct is mischievous or immodest, the husband has the right to beat her up but must not break her bones. She must not allow anybody to enter the house if her husband does not like him. She has the right to expect sustenance of her husband. (TR. P 439) It is forbidden for a woman to be seen by any man except her husband when she is made up or well-dressed. (TR. P 430) A woman is not a believer if she undertakes a journey which may last three days or longer, unless she is accompanied by her husband, son, father A woman must veil herself even in the presence of her husband's father, brother and other male relations. (TR. P 432) She is forbidden to spend any money without the permission of her husband, and it includes giving food to the needy or feast to friends. (TR. P 265) A wife is forbidden to perform extra prayers (NAFAL) or observe fasting (other than RAMADAN) without the permission of her husband. (TR. P 300) If prostration were a legitimate act other than to God, woman should have prostrated to her husband. (TR. P 428) If a man is in a mood to have sexual intercourse the woman must come immediately even if she is baking bread at a communal oven. (TR. P 428) The marriage of a woman to her man is not substantive. It is precarious. For example if the father of the husband orders his son to divorce his wife, he must do so. (TR. P 440) A woman who seeks KHULA i.e. divorce from her man, without a just cause, shall not enter paradise. (TR. P 440) On the contrary, a husband can divorce his wife at will. Majority of women would go to hell. (Muslim P 1431) If a woman refuses to come to bed when invited by her husband, she becomes the target of the curses of angles. Exactly the same happens if she deserts her husband's bed. (Bokhari P 93) Women who are ungrateful to their men are the denizens of hell; it is an act of ingratitude for a woman to say: "I have never seen any good from you." (Bokhari P 96) A woman in many ways is deprived of the possession of her own body. Even her milk belongs to her husband. (Bokhari P 27) She is not allowed to practise birth control either. Quotes From Sahih Muslim Hadith Chapter 540.The prophet said that he saw a woman coming and going in the shape of a devil and she fascinated him. So he came to his wife, Zainab, as she was tanning leather and had sexual intercourse with her. That drove out what he felt in his heart. Chapter 558. The prophet said: "When a man calls his wife to bed and she does not come, the husband spends the night being angry with her, and the angels curse her until morning. The one who is in heaven is displeased with her until the husband is pleased with her. Chpater 576. The prophet said :"Woman has been created from a rib, and will in no way be straightened for you." Anwar Shaikh , the author of Islam: An Arab National Movement says: "It shows the basic doctrine of Islam about womanhood, that is, she is basically crooked, and man has the right to keep her under his constant vigil; she must never be left alone." In fact, another hadith expresses woman's position bluntly: "I have not left any calamity more hurtful to man than woman." Chapter 619: Selling a cat, selling a dog (unless it is a working dog), and earning of prostitutes(unless they are non-muslims),... are all forbidden. This verse encourages the Muslim invaders to convert women of other faith into prostitutes for their own enjoyment as prostitution by non-muslims is NOT forbidden. We can see plenty of examples of this throughout history, especially Indian history. Chapter 1140: The prophet said : "The majority of those who entered the fire of Hell were women." So Islam considers most of the women are evil in nature and they end up in hell. Malik 362:1221 Ibn Fahd said "I have some slave girls who are better than my wives, but I do not desire that they should all become pregnant. Shall I do azl(withdrawal) with them?" Hajjaj said "They are your fields of cultivation. If you wish to irrigate them do so, if not keep them dry." The next three verses are related to each other. Malik 364:1234 If a woman suckles a baby, she becomes its foster mother and her husband a foster father. If a man has two wives, and one suckles a boy the other a girl, the boy can not marry the girl as the foster father of each is the same. The next verse contradicts the previous one. Malik 364:1239 The rule pertaining to foster relationship only applies to children under 2 years. Thus (Malik 365:1243) a grown up man fed with the milk of a woman does not entail fostership. Read the next verse carefully. Malik 365:1245 A man said, "My wife has willfully given my slavegirl with whom I used to cohabit her own milk to drink. What is my relationship to the slave girl ?" Omar said "Punish your wife and go into your slave girl". What more can I say about these golden verses from the "Holy" Quran and the enlightening Hadiths-- guidelines for every true Muslim! Gazzali, the renowned Islamic thinker summed up the 18 pains that had been visited on Muslim women as a punishment for Eve's transgression in paradise. The list eloquently shows the position of women in Islam and how the social customs were backed up by Islam. Here Islam goes to the extent of saying that even pregnancy and childbirth are punishments from God. Such is the nature of the all merciful Allah!!! The 18 punishments are: Menstruation Childbirth Separation from father and mother and marriage to a stranger Pregnancy Not having control over her own person A lesser share in inheritance. Her liability to be divorced and inability to divorce. It being lawful for man to have 4 wives but for a woman to have only 1 husband. The fact that she must stay secluded in the house The fact that she must keep her head covered inside the house. The fact that 2 women's testimonies have to be set against the testimony of one man. The fact that she must not go out of the house unless accompanied by a near relative. The fact that men take part in Friday and feast day funerals while women do not. Disqualification for rulership and judgeship. The fact that merit has 100 components, only one of which is attributable to women while 999 are attributed to men. The fact that if women are profligate they will be given only half as much torment as the rest of the community at the ressurection day. The fact that if their husbands die they must observe a waiting period of 4 months and 10 days before they remarry. The fact that if their husbands divorce them , they must observe a waiting period of 3 months or 3 menstrual periods before remarrying. To enlighten the people who are ignorant about "Sati" Pratha in India, this custom was a result of Muslim oppression and brutality. The Hindu women of India, in order to save their honour, used to jump into the fire after their husbands were brutally murdered by Muslim invaders. The question that arises from this is why did they jump into the fire and kill themselves? Why didn't they just poison themselves? The reason for this is that the lecherous necrophiliac muslim invaders did not even leave the dead bodies alone. Yes, they had sex even with the dead bodies! How disappointing it must have been for them to find nothing, but ashes. This is only a handful of facts that states the true nature of Islam. Note: Works of A. Ghosh, Robert E. Burns, and Anwar Shaikh have been used to compose this article. _________________ If you support the war on drugs you support torture! Anyone that supports the war on drugs is a sadist that does not deserve to live. http://groups.msn.com/LibertarianShadowDivision
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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Methods of enforcement
The War on Drugs utilizes several techniques to achieve its goal of eliminating recreational drug use: specialized law enforcement agencies, officers and techniques information campaigns to educate the public on the real or perceived dangers of recreational drug use streamlined enforcement and evidence-gathering procedures The War on Drugs involves action taken against three groups of criminals: Manufacturers (whether through chemical synthesis or agriculture) Traffickers and dealers Users A War on Drugs is usually run like a modern war with police and other law enforcement officers instead of military personnel. The apparatus prepared for the War is ordinarily organized to face guerrilla situations, armed attacks or counter-attacks and bombings. These tactics include espionage, as undercover agents (spies) are used to infiltrate drug use and trafficking circles. Investigation on drug trafficking often begins with the recording of unusually frequent deaths by overdose, monitoring financial flows of suspected traffickers, or by finding concrete elements while inspecting for other purposes. For example, a person pulled over for traffic violations may have illicit drugs in his or her vehicle, thus leading to an arrest and/or investigation of the source of the materials. Most investigations into trafficking or manufacturing are fruitless, and casual users remain at a greater risk of arrest, conviction and imprisonment than others. Legal Provisions The following frequently used drugs are prohibited or otherwise regulated for recreational use in most countries: Alcohol Benzodiazepines such as diazepam (Valium) Cannabis products, e.g. marijuana, hashish and hashish oil Dissociatives such as dextromethorphan (DXM), phencyclidine (pcp), and ketamine Hallucinogens such as LSD, mescaline, peyote, and psilocybin Opium, opiates such as heroin and morphine, and opioids such as codeine, hydrocodone (Vicodin), methadone, and oxycodone (Percocet, Oxycontin) Sedatives such as GHB, and methaqualone (Quaalude) Stimulants such as amphetamines (Adderall, Dexedrine), coca leaves and their derivative cocaine, MDMA (Ecstasy), methamphetamines, methcathinone, methylphenidate (Ritalin), and nicotine The regulation of the above drugs varies in many countries; cannabis and hashish, for example, are sometimes legal for personal use, though not sale. In some countries Dextromethorphan is available in ordinary over-the-counter products such as cough medicines. Alcohol possession and consumption by adults is today banned only in Islamic countries and various parts of India. The United States, Finland, and Canada banned alcohol in the early part of the 20th century; this was called Prohibition. Tobacco is not illegal for adults in any country, with the notable exception of Bhutan. In some parts of the world, provisions are made for the use of traditional sacraments like Ayahuasca, Iboga, and Peyote. In countries where alcohol and tobacco are legal, certain measures are frequently undertaken to discourage use of these drugs. For example, packages of alcohol and tobacco sometimes communicate warnings directed towards the consumer, communicating the potential risks of partaking in the use of the substance. These drugs also frequently have special sin taxes associated with the purchase thereof, in order to recoup the losses associated with public funding for the health problems the use causes in long-term users. Restrictions on advertising also exist in many countries, and often a state holds a monopoly on manufacture, distribution, marketing and/or the sale of these drugs. In the United States, there is considerable legal debate about the impact these laws have had on Americans' civil rights. Critics claim that the War on Drugs has lowered the evidentiary burden required for a legal search of a suspect's dwelling or vehicle, or to intercept a suspect's communications. However, many of the searches that result in drug arrests are often "consent searches" where an arresting officer does not have probable cause or a warrant, but has asked for and received permission to search a person or the person's property. The sentencing statutes in the United States Code that cover controlled substances are notorious for their illogical and incoherent structure. For example, a first-time offender convicted in a single proceeding for selling marijuana three times, and found to have simply carried a gun on him all three times (but did not use it), is subject to a minimum sentence of 55 years in federal prison. U.S. v. Angelos, 345 F. Supp. 2d 1227 (D. Utah 2004). Sometimes, crimes not directly related to drug use and sale are prohibited. For example, the United States recently brought charges against club owners for maintaining a place of business where a) Ecstasy is known to be frequently consumed; b) paraphernalia associated with the use of Ecstasy is sold and/or widely tolerated (such as glow sticks and pacifiers); and c) "chill-out rooms" are created, where Ecstasy users can cool down (Ecstasy raises the user's blood temperature). These are being challenged in court by organizations such as the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) and Drug Policy Alliance. Many countries allow the use of undercover law enforcement officers solely or primarily for the enforcement of laws against recreational use of certain drugs. Many of these officers are allowed to commit crimes if it is necessary to maintain the secrecy of the investigation, or in order to collect adequate evidence for a conviction. Some people have criticized this practice as failing to ensure equality under the law because it grants police officers the right to commit crimes that no other citizen could commit without potential consequences. The War on Drugs has stimulated the creation of international law enforcement agencies (such as Interpol), mostly in Western countries. This has occurred because a large volume of illicit drugs come from Third-World countries. References Abel, Ernest L., Marijuana -- The First Twelve Thousand Years, 1980. [1] (http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/hemp/history/first12000/abel.htm) Buhner, Stephen Harrod, Sacred and Herbal Healing Beers: The Secrets of Ancient Fermentation, Sirius Books, 1998. Hops: The Bitter Herb. [2] (http://www.greydragon.org/library/hops.html) Leavitt, Fred. (2003) The REAL Drug Abusers. Rowman & Littlefield. McCoy, A. (1991) The Politics of Heroin. Lawrence Hill Books. Miller, R. (1996) Drug Warriors and Their Prey. Praeger. See also Legal issues of cannabis Single Convention on Narcotic Drugs External links Drug Policy Alliance (http://www.drugpolicy.org/homepage.cfm) Transform Drug Policy Foundation (http://www.tdpf.org.uk/) After the War on Drugs: Options for Control (Report) (http://www.tdpf.org.uk/Transform_After_the_War_on_Drugs.pdf) Partnership for Drug Freedom in America (http://deoxy.org/pdfa/index.htm) The Drug War as a Socialist Enterprise by Milton Friedman
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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If you support the war on drugs you might as well support Islam. What freedoms do you think we are fighting for?
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Village Genius Registered: 09/19/03 Posts: 7,935 Loc: San Diego Last seen: 8 years, 7 months |
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Quote: Absolutely. -------------------- Magash's Grain Tek + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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Quote: Why do you support the war on drugs?
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Registered: 05/22/02 Posts: 2,511 |
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Quote: Is everyone who supports the war on drugs a "facist hypocrite"? -------------------- .
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Registered: 05/22/02 Posts: 2,511 |
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Quote: Drugs do no harm? Are you fucking serious? They do a lot of harm. Granted, fighting them does more harm, but it still is ignorant to say they do no harm. -------------------- .
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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Quote: Yes!
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Registered: 05/22/02 Posts: 2,511 |
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Quote: Edited by blacksabbathrulz (08/02/05 01:38 AM)
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Village Genius Registered: 09/19/03 Posts: 7,935 Loc: San Diego Last seen: 8 years, 7 months |
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Because drugs kill people.
-------------------- Magash's Grain Tek + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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Quote: Drugs do harm BECAUSE the government is fighting a war on drugs. The war on drugs causes the drugs to be cut with toxic chemicals, the price goes up so people smoke and inject drugs that would be eaten if the war on drugs was completly ended.
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Registered: 05/22/02 Posts: 2,511 |
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Quote: But some drugs are highly addictive, and have relatively low LD50s, regardless of whether or not they are cut. -------------------- .
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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Quote: The highly addictive drugs would not be widely used if the war on drugs ended. Honest education could be applied, and ready access to cheap, safe drugs would keep most people from using toxic drugs.
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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Quote: Chemicals kill people because of the war on drugs.
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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NOTE: If you support the war on drugs you might as well support Islam, what freedoms do you think we are fighting for?
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Village Genius Registered: 09/19/03 Posts: 7,935 Loc: San Diego Last seen: 8 years, 7 months |
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We're fighting in Iraq in order to legalize weed?
-------------------- Magash's Grain Tek + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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Quote: I hope so, otherwise we would be wasting all those lives. Legalizing "weed" is not my only concern, I was thinking of freedom in general.
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the cool fool Registered: 11/17/02 Posts: 27,397 Loc: USA |
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Quote: by that same logic lets see what else should be illegal....prescription pills, cars, guns, boats, airplanes, knives, motorcycles, hammers, axes, chainsaws, alcohol, TOBACCO products, dogs, electricity, pools, etc.....
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Registered: 10/22/04 Posts: 1,059 Loc: unknown |
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Quote: Pools kill people? Rofl.
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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Quote: This leaves us with two choices: accept a Taliban style government, or end the hypocritical war on drugs.
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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QUESTIONABLE TIES
Tracking bin Laden's money flow leads back to Midland, Texas by Wayne Madsen On September 24, President George W. Bush appeared at a press conference in the White House Rose Garden to announce a crackdown on the financial networks of terrorists and those who support them. ?U.S. banks that have assets of these groups or individuals must freeze their accounts,? Bush declared. ?And U.S. citizens or businesses are prohibited from doing business with them.? But the president, who is now enjoying an astounding 92 percent approval rating, hasn?t always practiced what he is now preaching: Bush?s own businesses were once tied to financial figures in Saudi Arabia who currently support bin Laden. In 1979, Bush?s first business, Arbusto Energy, obtained financing from James Bath, a Houstonian and close family friend. One of many investors, Bath gave Bush $50,000 for a 5 percent stake in Arbusto. At the time, Bath was the sole U.S. business representative for Salem bin Laden, head of the wealthy Saudi Arabian family and a brother (one of 17) to Osama bin Laden. It has long been suspected, but never proven, that the Arbusto money came directly from Salem bin Laden. In a statement issued shortly after the September 11 attacks, the White House vehemently denied the connection, insisting that Bath invested his own money, not Salem bin Laden?s, in Arbusto. In conflicting statements, Bush at first denied ever knowing Bath, then acknowledged his stake in Arbusto and that he was aware Bath represented Saudi interests. In fact, Bath has extensive ties, both to the bin Laden family and major players in the scandal-ridden Bank of Commerce and Credit International (BCCI) who have gone on to fund Osama bin Laden. BCCI defrauded depositors of $10 billion in the ?80s in what has been called the ?largest bank fraud in world financial history? by former Manhattan District Attorney Robert Morgenthau. During the ?80s, BCCI also acted as a main conduit for laundering money intended for clandestine CIA activities, ranging from financial support to the Afghan mujahedin to paying intermediaries in the Iran-Contra affair. When Salem bin Laden died in 1988, powerful Saudi Arabian banker and BCCI principal Khalid bin Mahfouz inherited his interests in Houston. Bath ran a business for bin Mahfouz in Houston and joined a partnership with bin Mahfouz and Gaith Pharaon, BCCI?s frontman in Houston?s Main Bank. The Arbusto deal wasn?t the last time Bush looked to highly questionable sources to invest in his oil dealings. After several incarnations, Arbusto emerged in 1986 as Harken Energy Corporation. When Harken ran into trouble a year later, Saudi Sheik Abdullah Taha Bakhsh purchased a 17.6 percent stake in the company. Bakhsh was a business partner with Pharaon in Saudi Arabia; his banker there just happened to be bin Mahfouz. Though Bush told the Wall Street Journal he had ?no idea? BCCI was involved in Harken?s financial dealings, the network of connections between Bush and BCCI is so extensive that the Journal concluded their investigation of the matter in 1991 by stating: ?The number of BCCI-connected people who had dealings with Harken?all since George W. Bush came on board?raises the question of whether they mask an effort to cozy up to a presidential son.? Or even the president: Bath finally came under investigation by the FBI in 1992 for his Saudi business relationships, accused of funneling Saudi money through Houston in order to influence the foreign policies of the Reagan and first Bush administrations. Worst of all, bin Mahfouz allegedly has been financing the bin Laden terrorist network?making Bush a U.S. citizen who has done business with those who finance and support terrorists. According to USA Today, bin Mahfouz and other Saudis attempted to transfer $3 million to various bin Laden front operations in Saudi Arabia in 1999. ABC News reported the same year that Saudi officials stopped bin Mahfouz from contributing money directly to bin Laden. (Bin Mahfouz?s sister is also a wife of Osama bin Laden, a fact that former CIA Director James Woolsey revealed in 1998 Senate testimony.) When President Bush announced he is hot on the trail of the money used over the years to finance terrorism, he must realize that trail ultimately leads not only to Saudi Arabia, but to some of the same financiers who originally helped propel him into the oil business and later the White House. The ties between bin Laden and the White House may be much closer than he is willing to acknowledge. Wayne Madsen, an investigative journalist based in Washington, is the author of Genocide and Covert Operations in Africa 1993-1999. http://www.inthesetimes.com/issue/25/25/feature3.shtml _________________ If you support the war on drugs you support torture! Anyone that supports the war on drugs is a sadist that does not deserve to live.
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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The Bush-Saudi Connection
By Michelle Mairesse Ancestral Voices In 1920, under a League of Nations mandate, officials from France and Great Britain carved up vast tracts of warlord-dominated territories in Arabia into what they imagined would be nation states devoid of the complex historical, cultural, and tribal realities of the Mideast. Instead of establishing European-style nation states, the strongest warlords quickly entrenched themselves with the aid of standing armies and spy networks. In much of the Mideast, fealty is often accorded to tribal overlords and the Islamic sects they favor rather than to the territory and people within the boundaries of the nation state. Jonathan Rabin succinctly defines the reality, past and present, of the desert sheikdoms: "The systems of government that have evolved in Syria, Iraq and Saudi Arabia are paranoid family dictatorships with ancestral roots in a single city or village." (1) Islamic fundamentalists like Osama bin Laden make their appeals to the nation or community of believers, not to any particular nation state, although the rich and powerful among the Muslims have founded Western-style businesses and formed corporations both inside and outside the boundaries of their native countries. Because Osama himself is a scion of a rich Saudi family with wide-ranging business interests throughout the world, the split Saudi personality is most evident in him and the bin Laden clan. Osama, who calls America "The Great Satan," has done business with the infidel Americans whenever it suited him. Throughout the eighties, when the United States assisted the Saudis in a giant military buildup of airfields, ports, and bases throughout the kingdom, many of the contracts were awarded to the largest construction company in Saudi Arabia, the Saudi Binladen Group, founded by Osama bin Laden?s father. At the same time, the United States trained and armed troops in Afghanistan to fight the Soviets. The United States and Saudi Arabia spent about $40 billion on the war in Afghanistan, recruiting, supplying, and training nearly 100,000 radical mujahideen from forty Muslim countries, including Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Algeria, and Afghanistan itself. Among the recruits were Osama bin Laden and his followers. (2) With C.I.A. funding, Osama bin Laden imported engineers and equipment from his father?s Saudi construction company to build tunnels for guerrilla training centers and hospitals, and for arms dumps near the Pakistan border. After the Soviets withdrew from Afghanistan, the C.I.A. and the Pakistani intelligence agency sponsored the Taliban organization, a government composed of the fanatic Wahhabi Islamic sect, the same sect that is the state religion in Saudi Arabia. Although followers of the Wahhabi sect do not refer to themselves as Wahhabis, the label is useful because it applies to a single Muslim group with a set of beliefs peculiar to them alone: Wahhabis maintain that Shi'ites and Sufis are not Muslims, and that Muslims should not visit shrines or celebrate Mohammed?s birthday. (3) The Saudi sheiks have been Wahhabis since they intermarried with the family of a puritanical Muslim scholar, Mohammed ibn Abd al-Wahhab, in 1774. Supported first by Britain and later by the United States, the Saudis captured the Muslim holy cities of Mecca and Medina, easily gaining control of the entire Arabian peninsula. Wherever they ruled, the Wahhabis imposed their medieval code on their hapless subjects, making public spectacles of stoning adulterers to death and maiming thieves, destroying decorated mosques and cemeteries, prohibiting music, sequestering women, and promoting war on infidels. The Saudi sheiks have lavished funds on anti-American and anti-Israeli terrorists-in-training while indoctrinating other Muslims through its worldwide network of religious schools, mosques, newspapers, and presses. Jihad The Wahhabi Taliban in Afghanistan had the blessings of the Saudi royal family and of The Big Three--the bin Laden family, the al Ahmoudi family, and the Mahfouz family--the richest clans in that medieval kingdom. (Khalid bin Mahfouz is bin Laden?s brother-in-law, according to the C.I.A.). The desert oligarchs profited from world-wide investments as well as sleazy banking schemes such as the infamous Bank of Credit and Commerce International. Salem bin Laden, Osama?s brother, has conducted all his American affairs through James Bath, a Houston crony of the Bush family. Bath?s former business partner Bill White testified in court that Bath had been a liaison for the C.I.A. In 1979 Bath invested $50,000 in Arbusto, George W. Bush?s first business venture. Rumor had it that Bath was acting as Salem bin Laden?s representative. "In conflicting statements, Bush at first denied ever knowing Bath, then acknowledged his stake in Arbusto and that he was aware Bath represented Saudi interests." (4) In addition to doing aviation business with Saudi sheiks, Bath was part owner of a Houston bank whose chief stockholder was Ghaith Pharaon, who represented the Bank of Commerce and Credit International (BCCI), a criminal global bank with branches in 73 countries. BCCI proceeded to defraud depositors of $10 billion during the ?80s, while providing a money laundry conduit for the Medellin drug cartel, Asia?s major heroin cartel, Manuel Noriega, Saddam Hussein, the C.I.A., and Islamist terrorist organizations worldwide. (5) Big Three wheeler-dealer Khalid bin Mahfouz, one of the largest stockholders in the criminal bank, was indicted when the massive BCCI banking scandal blew apart in the early 1990s. The Saudi royal family placed him under house arrest after discovering that Mahfouz had used the royal bank to channel millions of dollars through fake charities into bin Laden?s organizations, but Mahfouz was not so much punished as inconvenienced. (6) Members of the Wahhabist Saudi oligarchy are driven by the sometimes conflicting emotions of power lust and religious fervor. Their support of radical Islamists follows from their ambition to dominate the Muslim world, but their fear that radical Islamists might overthrow the Saudi regime at home motivates them to fund and encourage holy warriors in countries other than their own. As Daniel Pipes points out, jihad (holy war) is a central tenet of Muslim belief . "According to one calculation, Muhammad himself engaged in 78 battles, of which just one (the Battle of the Ditch) was defensive. Within a century after the prophet's death in 632, Muslim armies had reached as far as India in the east and Spain in the west. " (7) Pipes traces the bloody advance of fundamentalist jihadists against their twentieth century co-religionists. "Islamists, besides adhering to the primary conception of jihad as armed warfare against infidels, have also adopted as their own Ibn Taymiya's call to target impious Muslims. This approach acquired increased salience through the 20th century as Islamist thinkers . . . promoted jihad against putatively Muslim rulers who failed to live up to or apply the laws of Islam. The revolutionaries who overthrew the Shah of Iran in 1979 and the assassins who gunned down President Anwar Sadat of Egypt two years later overtly held to this doctrine. So does Osama bin Laden." In 1989, bin Laden established al Qaeda (the Base) in Afghanistan to organize extremist Wahhabis and disperse their networks throughout the country. A year later, he returned to Saudi Arabia and founded a welfare agency for Arab-Afghan veterans. Bin Laden hoped to mobilize the veterans as a kind of religious-military army, but King Faud discouraged the venture. When King Faud invited 540,000 American troops to the kingdom to fight in the Gulf War, bin Laden lambasted the royal family and urged religious authorities to issue fatwahs (religious rulings) condemning the American infidels. In 1991, Osama bin Laden and a band of Afghan veterans agitated in Sudan for a holy war against the enemies of Islam. In 1992, he claimed responsibility for the attack on American soldiers in Yemen, and again for attacks in Somalia in 1993. He was mum about the terrorist truck bombing of the World Trade Center in 1993, the explosion that killed six people and injured more than a thousand, but investigators knew bin Laden had donated heavily to the religious "charity" that financed the bombing operation. Spiked Investigations In February 1995, when he was appointed chief of the F.B.I.'s counter-terrorism section in Washington, John O?Neill immediately assembled and coordinated a team to capture Ramzi Yousef, who was en route from Pakistan to Afghanistan. Yousef was strongly suspected of planning and directing the World Trade Center bombing in 1993. In three days, the kingpin of the World Trade Center bombing was in custody, and O?Neill went on to accumulate damning evidence against the 1993 World Trade bombers that led to their conviction in American courts. For the next six years, John O?Neill tirelessly investigated terrorist strikes against Americans and American interests in Saudi Arabia, East Africa, and Yemen, often encountering American officials? roadblocks on the way. Even in 1996, after Jamal Ahmed al-Fadl turned himself in at the American Embassy in Eritrea and divulged details of bin Laden?s and al Qaeda?s organization and operations, the State Department refused to list al Qaeda as a terrorist organization. In February 1998, bin Laden assembled a number of terrorist groups, including Islamic Jihad, and issued a fierce fatwa calling for the deaths of all Americans. On August 7, 1998, 226 people died in the simultaneous bombing of American embassies in Tanzania and Kenya. Investigators blamed bin Laden for the attacks. On August 20, 1998, President Clinton amended Executive Order 12947 to add Osama bin Laden and his key associates to the list of terrorists, thus blocking their US assets--including property and bank accounts--and prohibiting all U.S. financial transactions with them. The United States conducted a missile attack against bin Laden's facilities in Afghanistan. On October 12, 2000, two suicide bombers ignited their boatload of explosives next to the USS Cole, an American destroyer refueling in Aden, off the coast of Yemen. The blast killed seventeen sailors and wounded thirty-nine others. O?Neill and his crack investigating team were dispatched to Yemen and hit a stone wall. He had hoped satellite intercepts of phone calls between an al Qaeda operative in Aden and Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan would lead him to the mastermind of the Cole attack, but the American ambassador and the Yemeni officials blocked the investigation at every turn. O?Neill resigned from the F.B.I. in July 2001 and signed on as security chief for the World Trade Center in September. He died in the WTC attack on September 11, 2001. Oil Diplomacy In Forbidden Truth: U.S.-Taliban Secret Oil Diplomacy and the Failed Hunt for bin Laden, two French intelligence analysts, Jean-Charles Brisard and Guillaume Dasquie, claim that the Clinton and Bush administrations impeded investigations of bin Laden and his al Qaeda terrorist group in order to maintain good relations with Saudi Arabia and to maintain the stability of the oil market. "As the late John O?Neill told one of the authors [Brisard] of this book, ?All of the answers, all of the clues allowing us to dismantle Osama bin Laden?s organization, can be found in Saudi Arabia.'" ( In articles and interviews, Brisard has expanded on this statement, pronouncing the official story about bin Laden?s exile from his native Saudi Arabia in 1994 and his frozen assets to be a canard. Not only did O?Neill and the F.B.I. have extensive information concerning the finances of bin Laden and al Qaeda, but the business connections between the bin Ladens, the Mahfouzes, the al Ahmoudis, the Saudi royal family, and the Bush family kept turning up in their investigations. Mahfouz, who owns Nimir Petroleum, has conducted joint ventures with the al Amoudi family, which owns Delta Oil. Delta Oil and Unocal planned to build a pipeline through Afghanistan before the Taliban backed away. These Saudi companies are still partnered with bigger oil companies (such as Texaco and Unocal) in developing Central Asian oil projects. Although Brisard?s interpretation of events has been disputed, the documentation of Forbidden Truth is impeccable. Clearly, the finances and fortunes of the Saudi oligarchs and the Bush family have been intertwined for many years, and oil has been the lubricant of choice, even non-existent oil. In The Conspirators, Al Martin describes an instance of the latter. He says that the Gulf Oil Drilling Supply, of New York, Miami, and Bahrain, was Jeb Bush?s favorite artifice for oil and gas frauds: "The fraud was rather simple. Richard Secord arranged through then Vice President George Bush Sr.?s old friend, Ghaith Pharaon, the then retired head of Saudi intelligence, for Gulf Oil and Drilling to purchase from the Saudi government oil and gas leases in the Gulf which were effectively worthless." The leases would be embellished to appear extremely valuable and then used as loan collateral. Great American Bank and Trust of West Palm Beach subsequently failed under the weight of unpaid Iran-Contra loans. "Also, in the case of Gulf Oil Drilling Supply, there was some moderately large international lending to that company. As you would suspect, it was principally out of the old George Bush friendly banks--Credit Lyonnais and Banque Paribas, which, combined lent $60 million dollars to Gulf Oil Drilling Supply, which, of course, was defaulted on later." (9) Special Saudis Michael Springmann, formerly chief of the visa section at the US Embassy in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, claims that he rejected hundreds of suspicious visa applications, but the C.I.A. officer overruled him and ordered the visas to be issued. Springmann protested to the State Department, the Office of Diplomatic Security, the F.B.I., the Justice Department and congressional committees, but in vain. (10) Springmann observed that 15 of the 19 people who allegedly flew airplanes into buildings in the United States got their visas from the same CIA-dominated consulate in Jeddah. As a special favor to residents of Saudi Arabia (including non-Saudi citizens), applicants for non-immigrant visas can apply at private travel agencies and receive their visa through the mail. During the months following the 9-11 attack, 102 applicants received their visas by mail, 2 more were interviewed, and none were rejected. The Saudis always got special treatment. In a November 6, 2001 BBC broadcast Greg Palast revealed just how special that treatment was. Even after Pakistan expelled the World Association of Muslim Youth (WAMY) and India claimed that the organization was linked to terrorist bombings in Kashmir and the Philippines military accused WAMY of funding Muslim insurgency, the F.B.I. got orders to leave the "charitable association" alone. After 9/11, investigators of the Islamic charities discovered overwhelming evidence that Saudis at all levels worked in tandem with the terrorists. David Kaplin reports, ?At the Saudi High Commission in Bosnia, which coordinated local aid among Saudi charities, police found before-and-after photos of the World Trade Center, files on pesticides and crop dusters, and information on how to counterfeit State Department badges. At Manila's international airport, authorities stopped Agus Dwikarna, an al Haramain representative based in Indonesia. In his suitcase were C4 explosives.? The interlocking charities make it difficult to follow the money trail. ?Many share directors, office space, and cash flow. For two years, investigators have followed the money to offshore trusts and obscure charities which, according to court records, they believe are tied to Hamas, al Qaeda, and other terrorist groups.? (US News and World Report, December 15, 2003). "The White House official line is that the Bin Ladens are above suspicion --apart from Osama, the black sheep, who they say hijacked the family name. That's fortunate for the Bush family and the Saudi royal household, whose links with the Bin Ladens could otherwise prove embarrassing. But Newsnight has obtained evidence that the FBI was on the trail of other members of the Bin Laden family for links to terrorist organisations before and after September 11th." (11) In the Boston Globe, March 11, 20004, Carl Unger, author of House of Bush, House of Saud: The Secret Relationship Between the World?s Two Most Powerful Dynasties, states that the 9/11 commission should ask who authorized the evacuation of 140 Saudi nationals on at least 8 aircraft making stops in 12 cities immediately following the attacks. ?Many of the passengers were high-ranking members of the royal House of Saud. About 24 of them were members of the bin Laden family, which owned the Saudi Binladin Group, a multibillion-dollar construction conglomerate.? Unger obtained passenger lists for 4 of the flights, which are posted on his website: www.houseofbush.com and includes the name of Prince Ahmed bin Salman. ?As reported last year by Gerald Posner in 'Why America Slept,' Prince Ahmed not only had alleged ties to Al Qaeda, but may also have known in advance that there would be attacks on 9/11. According to Posner, Abu Zubaydah, an Al Qaeda operative who was part of Osama bin Laden's inner circle and was captured in 2002, made these assertions when he was interrogated by the CIA. The commission should ask Mueller about Zubaydah's interrogation. They should also ask whether the FBI interrogated Prince Ahmed before his departure. "But Prince Ahmed will never be able to answer any questions because not long after the CIA interrogation, he died of a heart attack at the age of 43. Yet we do know that he was on one of the flights.? Unger believes that this episode ?raises particularly sensitive questions for the administration. Never before in history has a president of the United States had such a close relationship with another foreign power as President Bush and his father have had with the Saudi royal family, the House of Saud. I have traced more than $1.4 billion in investments and contracts that went from the House of Saud over the past 20 years to companies in which the Bushes and their allies have had prominent positions -- Harken Energy, Halliburton, and the Carlyle Group among them. Is it possible that President Bush himself played a role in authorizing the evacuation of the Saudis after 9/11? What did he know and when did he know it?? www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2004/04/11/unasked_questions?mode=PF In October 2001, the Treasury Department identified the Muwafaq Foundation, largely endowed by Khalid bin Mahfouz, as an al Qaeda front that had funneled millions of dollars to bin Laden. Some families of the 9/11 victims have named Mahfouz and dozens of prominent Saudis, including members of the royal family, in a lawsuit that accuses the Saudis of funding the 9/11 terrorists. Bush administration officials stated that they would seek to have the suit dismissed or delayed. (12) Senators Bob Graham and Richard C. Shelby, leaders of the congressional panel ending an investigation of the 9/11 attacks, said the administration should declassify information concerning Saudi funding of terrorists. "Citing ?their people and a lot of their leaders and probably even the royal family,? Shelby said: ?I believe [the Saudis] cannot support so-called charities that support terrorism on a big scale, and then pretend that they're our friends or our allies. "?As we get into the money trail, it might be embarrassing, but the American people need to know; the victims and their families need to know,? he added. Shelby and Graham said avoiding embarrassment and maintaining good relations with Saudi Arabia are not legitimate reasons to withhold information from the public. "?The question is,? Graham said after the news conference, ?will we get [the information declassified] in 30 years when the archives are open, or will we get it in time, before the next attack??" (13) Doubtless one of the connections the senators referred to was the Princess Haifa, the wife of Prince Bandar, Saudi ambassador to the United States for the last twenty years, the longest serving ambassador in Washington. Princess Haifa had been making monthly transfers, $130,000 in all, from her Washington bank account to a needy woman who relayed some of the checks to her husband and another man who assisted and funded the two hijackers who were based in San Diego. (14) "The money moved into the family?s bank account beginning in early 2000, just a few months after hijackers Khalid Almidhar and Nawaf Alhazmi arrived in Los Angeles from an Al Qaeda planning summit in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, according to the sources. Within days of the terrorists? arrival in the United States, Al Bayoumi befriended the two men who would eventually hijack American Flight 77, throwing them a welcoming party in San Diego and guaranteeing their lease on an apartment next door to his own. Al Bayoumi also paid $1,500 to cover the first two months of rent for Al Midhar and Alhazmi, although officials said it is possible that the hijackers later repaid the money." (15) Prince Bandar and Princess Haifa professed their ignorance of the whole affair. Mark Stein speculates about the recent visit Prince Bandar and Princess Haifa paid to George and Laura at the Crawford ranch, where they were received with the accolades usually reserved for heads of state. Bush must have known about the money transfers and Bandar must have known Bush knew, but apparently a good time was had by all. "Meanwhile, Majeda Ibrahin, the woman the princess was sending all that money to, turns out to be married to Osama Basnan, another buddy of the al-Qa?eda duo, and one who subsequently celebrated 11 September as a ?wonderful, glorious day?. But here?s an odd little thing: Mr Basnan is known to have been in Texas in April when Crown Prince Abdullah and his entourage flew in to the state to see Bush at the ranch. Just another coincidence? Well, sorta: he?s supposed to have had a meeting in Houston with some big-time Saudi prince who deals with ?intelligence matters.? This seems an unusual degree of access for some schlub from San Diego who?s in the US illegally, as it transpires. He is variously described as a Saudi government agent and al-Qa?eda sympathiser, as if these positions are mutually exclusive. The Saudi embassy say they?ve only received queries about this matter from the media, not from the FBI. Odd that. The federal government claims it needs vast new powers to track every single credit-card transaction and every single email of every single American, yet a prima facie link between the terrorists and Prince Bandar?s wife isn?t worth going over to the embassy to have a little chat about." (16) Apparently it is not only the Saudis? oil riches that insulates them from criticism, but also their calculated distribution of largesse. The Saudis have contributed to every presidential library in recent decades. Not surprisingly, former ambassadors to Saudi Arabia from the United States end up being apologists for the corrupt, despotic Saudi regime. The Saudis have arranged that American ambassadors to their country not speak Arabic. The American embassy in Saudi Arabia gets all its information about the reactionary regime from the rulers. Some of the Washington politicians who found the Saudi connection lucrative include Spiro Agnew, Frank Carlucci, Jimmy Carter, Clark Clifford, John Connally, James Baker, George H. W. Bush, William Simon and Caspar Weinberger. (17) Profits before Patriotism The Bush dynasty has always been comfortable putting profits before patriotism. Prescott Bush, Bush Senior?s father, extended credit to Adolph Hitler and supplied him with raw materials during Word War II. The U. S. seized his assets under the Trading with the Enemy Act, but grandfather Bush found other ways to replenish the family coffers. Bush Senior struck it rich in oil and in the defense industry. Mahfouz (yes, that Mahfouz), Prince Bandar and Prince Sultan (Bandar?s father) were also heavily invested in the defense industry through their holdings in the Carlyle Group, where Bush Senior served on the board of directors. Founded in 1987 as a private investment group with strong connections to the Republican Party establishment, Carlyle increased its original investment of $130 million to $900 million when it went public in 2001. "In recent years, Carlyle has been successful both at raising and making money. It has raised $14 billion in the last five years or so, and its annual rate of return has been 36 percent. Its 550 investors consist of institutions and wealthy individuals from around the world including, until shortly after September 2001, members of the bin Laden family of Saudi Arabia. The family ? which has publicly disavowed links with Osama bin Laden ? had been an investor since 1995." (1 "As the eleventh largest US defence contractor, Carlyle is involved in nearly every aspect of military production, including making the big guns used on US naval destroyers, the Bradley Fighting Vehicle used by US forces during the Gulf War and parts used in most commercial and military aircraft. United Defense has joint ventures in Saudi Arabia and Turkey, two of the United States? closest military allies in the Middle East." (19) It?s passing strange that even as the hijacked planes smashed into the World Trade Center, the Carlyle Group was holding its annual investor conference. Shafig Bin Laden, brother of Osama Bin Laden, attended. Bush Junior once served as an executive with Caterair, one of hundreds of companies Carlyle has bought and sold over the past 15 years, but he removed the record of this period from his resume. In 1986, Bush Junior, to date a flop as a businessman, joined Harken Energy Corporation as a director and was awarded 212,000 shares of stock and other plums. In 1987, Khalid bin Mahfouz arranged for BCCI investor Abdullah Bakhsh to purchase 17% of Harken. A Harken official acknowledged that Bush?s White House connections had everything to do with the appointment. Somehow, the inexperienced, obscure firm was awarded a prime drilling contract by Bahrain, and Harken?s stock price soared. In June 1990, Bush Junior sold his Harken stock for a juicy $848,000, enabling him to pay off the loan he had assumed on buying shares in the Texas Rangers. Never mind that the Harken stock promptly tanked when Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait, for Abdullah Bakhsh, a major Harken shareholder and an investor in BCCI, who had purchased 17% of Harken Energy in 1987, got his money?s worth. By 1990, Bakhsh?s representative on Harken?s board, Talet Othman, began attending Middle East policy discussions with President Bush Senior. Now that Bush Junior occupies the White House, Bush Senior receives frequent CIA briefings (his prerogative as a former president). "In July 2001, Bush personally contacted Saudi Crown Prince Abdullah to ?clarify? his son's Middle East policies. Also during the summer of 2001, Bush forwarded his son a North Korea policy plan penned by ?Asia expert? and former ambassador to Korea, Donald Gregg. Gregg is a 31-year CIA veteran and the elder Bush's former national security adviser whose expertise involved participation in the Vietnam-era Phoenix Program (death squads), Air America heroin smuggling, ?pacification? efforts in El Salvador and Guatemala, the ?October Surprise,? and the Iran-Contra operation (for which Gregg received a Bush pardon in 1992)." (20) Bush Junior has received more than advice from his father. He has taken on the team of hustlers and criminals that worked with George Herbert Walker Bush when he was Vice President and President of the United States of America. Just as his father did, he invokes executive privilege to hide all evidence of collusion with the petroleum pashas who have enriched the Bushes and intimidated the rest of us. Sandy Tolan, an I.F. Stone Fellow at the Graduate School of Journalism at UC Berkeley, asserts that what the Bush administration really wants in Iraq is a remapping of the Mideast. "The plan is, in its way, as ambitious as the 1916 Sykes-Picot agreement between the empires of Britain and France, which carved up the region at the fall of the Ottoman Empire. The neo-imperial vision, which can be ascertained from the writings of key administration figures and their co-visionaries in influential conservative think tanks, includes not only regime change in Iraq but control of Iraqi oil, a possible end to the Organization of the Petroleum Exporting Countries and newly compliant governments in Syria and Iran -- either by force or internal rebellion." The Bushes are carriers of the deny-destroy-and-be-damned virus. Prescott Bush never apologized for trading with the Nazis. George Bush Senior professed to know nothing of the drug and arms dealing that funded the bloody, illegal Iran-Contra operations, although it was common knowledge that he directed them. He and his sons enriched themselves through shady real estate deals and financial manipulations that brought down entire banking and savings and loan institutions. They are all consummate inside traders, looting and leaving ruin in their wake. President-Select George Bush is no exception. He has no scruples about exploiting his office for personal and family gain. The Texas governor who could joke about frying prisoners in the electric chair will not, as president, agonize over the decision to send young men and women into battle--or over denying them medical care when they are injured. There is irrefutable evidence that highly-placed Saudis aided and supported the terrorists who murdered over 3000 American citizens on September 11, 2001. Yet George Bush persists in protecting and colluding with those who sponsor terrorists. Is this not an an act of treason? George Bush should be impeached. Notes: (1) Jonathan Raban, "Western conceit of nation-building ignores culture and history of Arabia," Seattle Times, November 24, 2002 (2) Michael Parenti, 9-11 Terrorism Trap: September 11 and Beyond (2000) City Lights Books, San Francisco (3) Laura Secor, "Which Islam?," Boston Daily Globe, December 15, 2002 (4) Wayne Madsen, "Questionable Ties: Tracking bin Laden's money flow leads back to Midland, Texas," (5) "The Press on the BCCI-bin Mahfouz-bin Laden Intelligence Nexus, " Boston Herald , December 11, 2001 (6) Jonathan Beaty & S. C. Gwynne, The Outlaw Bank: A Wild Ride Into the Secret Heart of BCCI, (1993) Random House, New York (7) Daniel Pipes, "Jihad: How Academics Have Camouflaged Its Real Meaning," December 2, 2002 ( Jean-Charles Brisard and Guillaume Dasquie, Forbidden Truth: U.S.-Taliban Secret Oil Diplomacy and the Failed Hunt for bin Laden (2002) Thunder's Mouth Press/Nation Books, New York (9) Al Martin, The Conspirators: Secrets of an Iran-Contra Insider (2002) National Liberty Press, LLC (10) Center for Cooperative Research, "Hijackers who were under surveillance before 9/11" (11) Greg Palast and David Pallister, "FBI and US Spy Agents Say Bush Spiked Bin Laden Probes Before 11 September," The Guardian, November 7, 2001 (12) Jeff Gerth and Judith Miller, "Saudis Called Slow to Help Stem Terror Finances," New York Times, November 28, 2002 (13) Dana Priest and Susan Schmidt, "9/11 Panel Criticizes Secrecy on Saudi Links," Washington Post, December 12 2002 (14) Greg Miller, Greg Krikorian and H.G. Reza, "FBI Looks at Saudi's Links to 9/11," Los Angeles Times, November 23, 2002 (15) Michael Isikoff, Newsweek, November 22, 2002 (16) Mark Steyn, "Bush and the Saudi Princess" (17) Daniel Golden, James Bandler and Marcus Walker, Wall Street Journal, September 27, 2001 Posted at globalresearch.ca 5 October 2001 (1 James Hatfield, "Why would Osama bin Laden want to kill Dubya, his former business partner?" Online Journal, July 13, 2001 (19) Steve Lohr, "Gerstner to Be Chairman of Carlyle Group," New York Times, November 22, 2002 (20) Tim Shorrock uncovers the Bush connection to US defence giant the Carlyle Group, New Internationalist 347, July 2002 Updates From the Progressive Populist, February 1, 2003 -- Bush?s uncle, Jonathan Bush, is an executive at Riggs Bank, where Saudi Princess Faisal had the checking account through which she made her donations to charities. Saudi Arabia has transferred $500 million to Al Qaida over the past decade, according to a report prepared for the United Nations New Chairman of 9/11 Commission had business ties with Osama's Brother in Law Documentation that Bush Junior and James Bath both served together in the National Guard at Ellington Air Force Base and were suspended for failure ?to accomplish annual medical inspection? An investigation of Saudi banks Confirmation that the U.S. has a long-standing agreement with Saudi Arabia to train pilots at U.S. bases _________________ If you support the war on drugs you support torture! Anyone that supports the war on drugs is a sadist that does not deserve to live.
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wiffle bat. Registered: 08/30/03 Posts: 56,993 Loc: Great Southern L |
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I voted yes, but only because I like to laugh at Americans getting sent to jail for minor crimes.
-------------------- Coaster is an idiot... [quote]Coaster said: but i thnk everything thats pure is white? [/quote]
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Now with ExtraVa Registered: 06/14/02 Posts: 1,677 Loc: Nowhere fast Last seen: 2 years, 11 months |
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-------------------- Kumbayah my lord, Kumbayah...
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Not an EggshellWalker Registered: 07/18/03 Posts: 7,991 Loc: Cave of the Patr |
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I'd rather support Islam than Christianity, which in my opinion has done much more harm to life as a whole, so count me in on supporting the War on Drugs.
And it's ridiculous to say that if allowed easy access to cheap, pure hard drugs, people will stop doing them. If the War on Drugs ended, people would still do hard drugs, perhaps even more now that they wouldn't have to worry about penalties from the government. -------------------- So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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Carpal Tunnel Registered: 04/10/99 Posts: 11,394 Loc: Canada Last seen: 3 months, 5 days |
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My point is there is no popular support for the war on drugs. Any true democracy would not have supported the war on drugs to begin with. And what better way to prove this point than by surveying users of a drug message board. ![]() There IS popular support for the war on drugs, but any idiot knows you're not going to find those people here. -------------------- "I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson http://phluck.is-after.us
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Carpal Tunnel Registered: 04/10/99 Posts: 11,394 Loc: Canada Last seen: 3 months, 5 days |
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I'd rather support Islam than Christianity, which in my opinion has done much more harm to life as a whole
What is your opinion based on? A well researched comparison of damages over the history of the two religions, or just a guess? Opinons are meaningless if they aren't based on fact. Both religions are completely irrational. At the moment, it's quite clear that there are more violent Islamic organizations than Christian ones, though that's not to say that Christianity has been used to justify all kinds of violence in the past. Also, you can't blame the religion for the acts of the followers. Just because Bush is Christian, doesn't mean that the government's actions have anything to do with Christianty. -------------------- "I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson http://phluck.is-after.us
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Prince of Bugs ![]() Registered: 10/08/02 Posts: 44,175 Last seen: 3 months, 10 days |
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In the past, Christianity has done far more damage than Islam.
Christianity has continued to be non-accepting to other faiths, while until recently Islam respected all "People of the Book" and allowed them their religion and personal freedoms. Plus when you add things such as the witch-hunts, the Crusades, and the massacres that went on in Spain during the Christian Revival, I believe Christianity has done much more damage. Don't count this as a baseless imflammatory attack on Christians, though. I am one myself.
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Fred's son Registered: 10/18/00 Posts: 12,949 Loc: Dominican Republ Last seen: 9 years, 17 days |
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Brahmanandam, I suggest you re-read the rules of this forum. They are contained in a sticky post at the top of the first page of this forum.
Calling someone an idiot is flaming, and flaming is not tolerated. Rather than banning people for their first violation of the rules, we instead give one warning. This is that warning. Phred
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Village Genius Registered: 09/19/03 Posts: 7,935 Loc: San Diego Last seen: 8 years, 7 months |
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Why is this ridiculous thread not tucked away in the Drug War Arena? I thought that was kinda the purpose of that sub-forum, so we don't have threads like this in the politics forum.
-------------------- Magash's Grain Tek + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs
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Village Genius Registered: 09/19/03 Posts: 7,935 Loc: San Diego Last seen: 8 years, 7 months |
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Sheesh, look at your poll results. NO ONE takes you seriously. And what happened to Rono's rule of not posting insanely long articles without comment in the middle of threads?
-------------------- Magash's Grain Tek + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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Quote: Do you laugh at tyrany in other nations, or just in the United States?
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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Quote: It is ridiculous to support Islam, even if you can argue that their are problems with Christianity or any other religions. You will find that muslims can only defend islam by attacking Judaism, Christianity, and other religions despite the fact that Islam is the greater of any evil you measure it against. Mohammad was a rapist, kidnapper, pedophile, sadist, and murder.
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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Quote: As long as the muslims loot and raid the kafirs(non believers of Islam), it is completely justified. Ghazzua is an Arabic word for raid as well as killing and enslaving the kafirs. From this word the term Ghazi is derived which means honourable warrior of Islam who has killed many kafirs. The distribution of the loot or booty, which includes the men, women and children, is done as prescribed by the well defined regulations stated in the Quran and the hadiths. Four fifths of the loot is to be shared by the barbaric, lecherous invaders who took part in the heinous plunderings while one fifth is reserved for the great Prophet or the Caliph and in their absence to the mullah who is in charge. Such loots and raids were considered shameful acts in Pre-Islamic Arabia. But Mohammed revealed to his followers that since he was the last prophet for all time to come such raids were now sanctioned by Allah. Thus he legalised these inhuman acts of raid, plunder, loot and rape. Let us closely examine the pattern that these barbaric invaders followed all over the world. This pattern is written down in the Quran; practised, perfected and prescribed by the prophet in his own life time and closely followed by the Caliphs later. Even in present time, this pattern is followed by all Muslim leaders who aspire for name and fame in this life and houris (beautiful virgin women) hereafter. The pattern is: Invade the lands of the infidels. Massacre as many infidel men, women and children as they like after winning a victory Capture the survivors as slaves and confine the women in their harems as slave girls Plunder every place and person for war, booty, a fifth of which (including the slaves) went to the Caliph or some other religious heads. Demolish the places of worship of the infidels and build mosques in their places. Defile and desecrate the deities and other symbols of the infidels' religion by throwing them into public squares or making into steps leading to the prayer area of the Muslims. Let us again start with His Holiness Mohammed himself. In 627 A.D he raided the Jewish tribe of Qurayza. The Jews were defeated in the fight and many prisoners were taken. They were either sold or assassinated in the name of merciful Allah. In one place alone, approximately 800 Jews were beheaded in cold blood. In 629 A.D after the battle of Khaybar, and the defeat of the Jews, the same play was enacted. All the Jews were put to the sword. The raids undertaken by the prophet and methods followed became the guidelines for the Caliphs and other leaders who followed him. Caliph Umar I The reign of terror by caliph Umar still horrifies the present day Iranians. They dress themselves up in festive clothing on the death anniversary of this caliph, even to this day. Caliph Umar who was also one of the many father-in-laws of Mohammed, attained leadership of Islam two years after Mohammed's death. His reign of terror rocked Iran, Irag, Egypt and Syria. His most dastardly deed was the destruction of the great library in Alexandria. His order to Amir Amron ibn al-Ass (rightly named) is preserved as follows: "As for the books you mentioned here is my reply. If their content is in accordance with the book of Allah, we may do without them, for in that case the book of Allah more than sufficies. If on the other hand, they contain matter not in accordance with the book of Allah, there can be no need to preserve them. Proceed then and destroy them." Such brilliance and such logic can only be found in the followers of all merciful Allah. The 700,000 scrolls, some of them works a thousand or more years old, many on Mathematics, science and philosophy were destroyed. Ibn al-Kifti wrote that, "it took 6 months to burn all that mass of material." Where Alexandria lost only one of its precious libraries, India lost millions of books on Mathematics, Astronomy, Philosophy and other Sciences of the Vedic and Buddhist periods. For example, the famous Sanskrit college of Vishaldev in the capital of Gujrat was destroyed by the eunuch Qutubuddin Aibak in the year 1196 A.D. The famous Buddist university of Nalanda had the same fate in the year 1200 A.D. when Mohammed Bakhtiyar Khilji attacked the township and massacared the harmless Buddist monks and violated the nuns. In recent years, the Pakistani Muslim army attacked the then East Pakistan (now Bangladesh). 3,000,000 Bengali Hindus were brutally murdered.The first attack was on Dhaka University. The women students were not spared. They were raped and murdered mercilessly. Khair Ed-Din In 1516, the Emir of Algiers, Selim Bin Teumin, weary of Spanish interference sought the aid of Khair Ed-din, a Turkish sea robber and one of the Barbarossa brothers. Another brother, Arouj had the Emir assassinated. Khair Ed-Din was named as Viceroy by Selim I, Sultan of Turkey. Khair laid siege to the spanish fortress on the island of Penon and wrested it from Christian hands. Martin Vagas, the Spanish commander was given the choice between death or conversion to Islam. He chose the former, whereupon he was flogged to death, his deadbody dragged through the street, cut into pieces and thrown into the sea. With the help of Khair Ed-Din the muslim pirates were secure in Algiers for three centuries. Ten percent of the booty went to the Bey of the day. The captives of the Barbary corsairs were able to ransom themselves if they had money and many were freed on accepting Islam. The others were sold like cattle at an auction and many died from fever, starvation or the lash. Women, however were taken into harems as concubines of their captors. One story recorded by a Spanish monk, Haedo, of the sixteenth century concerns a young Arab. He had been captured by the Spanish, had embaraced Christianty and been baptized as Geronimo. He was recaptured in 1569 by the Barbary pirates and taken to Algiers. When threats and pleadings failed to make him apostate back to Islam, Geronimo was condemned to death. Bound hand and foot, he was thrown into a mould in which a block of concrete was about to be made and the liquid concrete poured in upon him. The block containing his body was built into the FORT OF THE TWENTY FOUR HOURS in Algiers. Bricking up human beings is a common punishment as prescribed by the Quran. In India, the children of the Sikh Gurus were bricked up because they did not accept Islam. Akbar, the Moughal emperor jealous of his son's affair with Anarkali had her bricked up as well. Piali Pasha In 1560 a Turkish squadron under Piali Pasha and the corsair Dargut annihilated the Spanish fleet at Tunisia and took the Spanish fort of Djerba. All 5000 prisoners were massacred and a huge mound of bones six meters high was formed. The mound was called Skull Fort and was in existence for nearly 3 centuries. Abdul Hamid II In 1894, the sultan of the Ottoman empire Abdul Hamid reacted violently against the Armenian Nationalists living in Eastern Turkey. In Sasun, the Armenians refused to accept a 100 percent increase in rents. 3000 rebels were killed, women raped and mutilated and babies bashed against rocks. The pogrom spread: in Trebizond a 1000 odd Armenians were killed, in Arabkir 2800, in Urfa 8000, plus 3000 burnt alive in a Cathedral where they hoped they would be safe. In August 1896, bands of Turks patrolled the streets of Constantinople killing over 5000 Armenians. In All, the total toll from 1894 to 1896 is estimated at 100,000 non combatants killed, 50,000 dead from starvation, 40,000 forcibly converted to Islam and 100,000 driven into exile. Fahri Koroturk Fahri Koroturk was the right wing Muslim President of Turkey and commander of the armed forces when the decision was made to invade Cyprus. The number of Turks on the Island was about 150,000 while 503,000 were Greek. At 5 A.M, Saturday 20th July 1974 The Turkish army, Navy and airforce attacked Cyprus. Turkey used weapons given to it by the United States and NATO, employing the Quranic injunctions to accept help from the infidels but to remember that Jihad is the ultimate aim. http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11613
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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Quote: Look agian, and why dont you try READING the article before you cry about it.
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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My poll has been moved to the drug war arena!
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Village Genius Registered: 09/19/03 Posts: 7,935 Loc: San Diego Last seen: 8 years, 7 months |
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Which one?!? You posted about 20 freaking articles which ruins any thread you post in.
Obviously no one here actually supports the war on drugs, why don't you try doing this whole schtick somewhere else instead of preaching to the fucking choir! -------------------- Magash's Grain Tek + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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Quote:
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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"The myth of moderate Islam" (Patrick Sookhdeo, The Spectator, from the 2005/07/30 issue)
"So the mantra ?Islam is peace? is almost 1,400 years out of date. It was only for about 13 years that Islam was peace and nothing but peace. From 622 onwards it became increasingly aggressive, albeit with periods of peaceful co-existence, particularly in the colonial period, when the theology of war was not dominant. For today?s radical Muslims ? just as for the mediaeval jurists who developed classical Islam ? it would be truer to say ?Islam is war?.": "The funeral of British suicide bomber Shehzad Tanweer was held in absentia in his family?s ancestral village, near Lahore, Pakistan. Thousands of people attended, as they did again the following day when a qul ceremony was held for Tanweer. During qul, the Koran is recited to speed the deceased?s journey to paradise, though in Tanweer?s case this was hardly necessary. Being a shahid (martyr), he is deemed to have gone straight to paradise. The 22-year-old from Leeds, whose bomb at Aldgate station killed seven people, was hailed by the crowd as ?a hero of Islam?. ... Could it be that the young men who committed suicide were neither on the fringes of Muslim society in Britain, nor following an eccentric and extremist interpretation of their faith, but rather that they came from the very core of the Muslim community and were motivated by a mainstream interpretation of Islam? The Muslim community now inhabits principally the urban centres of England as well as some parts of Scotland and Wales. It forms a spine running down the centre of England from Bradford to London, with ribs extending east and west. It is said that within 10 to 15 years most British cities in these areas will have Muslim-majority populations, and will be under local Islamic political control, with the Muslim community living under Sharia. ... It is worth noting that many conflicts around the world are not internal to the Muslim community but external, as Muslims seek to gain territorial control, for example, in south Thailand, the southern Philippines, Kashmir, Chechnya and Palestine. Is it possible that a conflict of this nature could occur in Britain?" (See also: "Doublespeak Unveiled: Muslim ?moderates? are true to spirit of Islam" (Bruce Thorton, Private Papers, 2005/07/26))
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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"Criticism of suicide bombers censored at the UN" (IHEU/Dhimmi Watch, 2005/07/26)
A press release from the International Humanist and Ethical Union: "IHEU today attempted to call on the United Nations to condemn killing in the name of religion, but were prevented from doing so by the heavy-handed intervention of Islamic representatives. The IHEU call, at today's meeting of the UN Sub-Commission on Human Rights in Geneva, follows moves by Islamic clerics to legitimise the current wave of terror attacks. ... The Islamic members of the Sub-Commission objected to the speech as an attack on Islam. The text however is a report on recent critical comment on Islamist extremism by a number of notable Muslim writers and is a call to the UN Human Rights Commission by the NGOs "to condemn calls to kill, to terrorise or to use violence in the name of God or any religion". The text referred to recent decisions by high-ranking Muslim clerics confirming that those who carry out suicide bombings cannot be treated as apostates and remain Muslims(1), a fatwa by a Saudi cleric that innocent Britons were a legitimate target for terrorist action(2), and remarks by Yusuf al-Qaradawi, dean of the College of Sharia and Islamic Studies at Qatar University who has visited Britain, that terror attacks are permissible." http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/007381.php
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Carpal Tunnel Registered: 04/10/99 Posts: 11,394 Loc: Canada Last seen: 3 months, 5 days |
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Mohammad was a rapist, kidnapper, pedophile, sadist, and murder.
You can find plenty of evil shit in the bible as well, as has been pointed out. The fact that the vast majority of muslims disagree with those kinds of actions kind of invalidates the idea that the whole religion is evil. It's not the religion itself that created violence, it's a whole whack of political, economic, and social factors. Some people simply have trouble understanding things, and try to oversimplify everything. Like "terrorists are evil because islam is evil". That's just a really, really, really dumbed down way of looking at the whole thing. It works well for people who can't handle opening a history book, but those people don't need to be involved in any kind of discussion because they lack the ability to provide any valid insight. -------------------- "I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson http://phluck.is-after.us
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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Mohammed revealed to his followers that since he was the last prophet for all time to come such raids were now sanctioned by Allah. Thus he legalised these inhuman acts of raid, plunder, loot and rape.
Let us closely examine the pattern that these barbaric invaders followed all over the world. This pattern is written down in the Quran; practised, perfected and prescribed by the prophet in his own life time and closely followed by the Caliphs later. Even in present time, this pattern is followed by all Muslim leaders who aspire for name and fame in this life and houris (beautiful virgin women) hereafter. The pattern is: Invade the lands of the infidels. Massacre as many infidel men, women and children as they like after winning a victory Capture the survivors as slaves and confine the women in their harems as slave girls Plunder every place and person for war, booty, a fifth of which (including the slaves) went to the Caliph or some other religious heads. Demolish the places of worship of the infidels and build mosques in their places. Defile and desecrate the deities and other symbols of the infidels' religion by throwing them into public squares or making into steps leading to the prayer area of the Muslims. Let us again start with His Holiness Mohammed himself. In 627 A.D he raided the Jewish tribe of Qurayza. The Jews were defeated in the fight and many prisoners were taken. They were either sold or assassinated in the name of merciful Allah. In one place alone, approximately 800 Jews were beheaded in cold blood. In 629 A.D after the battle of Khaybar, and the defeat of the Jews, the same play was enacted. All the Jews were put to the sword. The raids undertaken by the prophet and methods followed became the guidelines for the Caliphs and other leaders who followed him. Caliph Umar I The reign of terror by caliph Umar still horrifies the present day Iranians. They dress themselves up in festive clothing on the death anniversary of this caliph, even to this day. Caliph Umar who was also one of the many father-in-laws of Mohammed, attained leadership of Islam two years after Mohammed's death. His reign of terror rocked Iran, Irag, Egypt and Syria. His most dastardly deed was the destruction of the great library in Alexandria. His order to Amir Amron ibn al-Ass (rightly named) is preserved as follows: "As for the books you mentioned here is my reply. If their content is in accordance with the book of Allah, we may do without them, for in that case the book of Allah more than sufficies. If on the other hand, they contain matter not in accordance with the book of Allah, there can be no need to preserve them. Proceed then and destroy them." Such brilliance and such logic can only be found in the followers of all merciful Allah. http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11613
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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VIII/65: "O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there be of you twenty steadfast they shall overcome two hundred, and if there be of you a hundred stedfast they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they (the disbelievers) are a folk without intelligence."
The above verse is self explanatory. It clearly orders the Muslim to kill the non believers. It also clearly says that anyone who doesn't believe in Islam has no intelligence! VIII/67-69: "It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he hath made slaughter in the land. Ye desire the lure of this world and Allah desireth (for you) the Hereafter, and Allah is Mighty, Wise. Had it not been for the ordinance of Allah which had gone before, an awful doom had come upon you on account of what ye took. Now enjoy what ye have won, as lawful and good, and keep your duty to Allah. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful." Here Allah is clearly instructing the Prophet that hold no prisoners, kill them all as they are criminals for not believing in Allah. The Prophet must do these deeds because Allah desires that the muslims enjoy the Houris and young boys in Jannat (Heaven). The above verses were revealed when the prophet had decided to spare the lives of the prisoners taken at Badr and hold them to ransom, against the wish of Umar who would have executed them for their past crime. The prophet took the verses as a reproof, and they are generally understood to mean that no mercy ought to have been given in that first battle. Such is the nature of the all merciful Allah !! VIII/73: And those who disbelieve are protectors one of another. -If ye do not so, there will be confusion in the land, and great corruption." VIII/12: "When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying:) I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then maim them in every limb and smite of them each finger." The above verse clearly depicts how Allah prescribes the Muslims to torture and kill. IX/5: "Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolators wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful." This verse clealry says that Muslims should try to convert non-muslims forcibly. If they are unable to do so, then they should either kill the kafirs or make their lives miserable. IX/73: "Oh Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites! Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end." LXIX/30-37: "(It will be said): Take him and fetter him and then expose him to hell-fire And then insert him in a chain whereof the length is 70 cubits. Lo! he used not to believe in allah the Tremendous, And urged not on the feeding of the wretched, Therefore hath he no lover here this day, Nor any food save filth Which none but sinners eat." This verse describes the recipe for torture as revealed by Allah. This recipe was applied in India when the Sikh Gurus were murdered. It was also applied elsewhere in the world as I have mentioned above in this article. V/33-34: "The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet and alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom; Save those who repent before ye overpower them. For know that Allah is Forgiving, merciful." This verse gives Muslims another recipe for torture. Here Allah has taken care of the details in the procedure. XXII/19-22: "These twain (the believers and the disbelievers) are two opponents who contend concering their Lord. But as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them, boiling fluid will be poured down their heads. Whereby that which is in their bellies, and their skins too, will be melted; And for them are hooked rods of iron. Whenever, in their anguish, they would go forth from thence they are driven back therein and (it is said unto them): Taste the doom of burning." Yet another recipe for torture !! Need I say more ? LXXVI/4: "Lo! We have prepared for disbelievers manacles and carcans and a raging fire." Quotes From The Hadiths: Sahih Al Bukhari, 216:"I have been ordered to fight against people until they testify that there is no God but Allah & that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah & until he performs the prayers & pays the Zakat." The quote above clearly states that Allah has ordered the Prophet to torture the Kafirs until they submit to Islam. And by ordering Muhammad he is ordering each and every muslim to do so as Mohammed is the true model which every muslim must strive for. Sahih Muslim, 217: "Verily Allah has prescribed proficiency in all things. Thus if you kill, KILL WELL, & if you slaughter, SLAUGHTER WELL. Let each one of you sharpen his blade." Need I explain the above quote?? The above Quranic verses and quotes from Hadiths have clearly shown us once again that Islam is a religion for mindless, empty headed barbarians who are interested in nothing but money,power,sex & destruction. What I am trying to get across here is that the foundation of Islam (Quran itself) was deviously brought into existence by Mohammed and company, so that heinous acts like rape, plunder, loot, toruture, and murder are justifiable. One sees evidence of this not only in History, but in present time as well. http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11613
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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Quote: If rape, murder, torture, and kidnapping is not evil what is? As always, muslim apologists respond by attacking the bible, does the bible tell you to rape and torture people, where is this "evil shit in the bible", and even if there was evil in the bible how does that excuse the actions of Muhammad? "The fact that the vast majority of muslims disagree with those kinds of actions kind of invalidates the idea that the whole religion is evil." If they disagree with those kinds of actions why would they follow a cult leader that commits such atrocities? The koran justifies rape, torture, kidnapping and murder. Show me where any other religion does this. Even if there was another religion that was as evil as Islam, that would by no means justify killing and torture in the name of Islam. If you don't show me the "evil shit in the bible" that you were talking about, why should I believe anything you say?
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Carpal Tunnel Registered: 04/10/99 Posts: 11,394 Loc: Canada Last seen: 3 months, 5 days |
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http://www.evilbible.com/Rape.htm
Read. Even if there was another religion that was as evil as Islam, that would by no means justify killing and torture in the name of Islam. Nobody ever said it does. What's the point of arguing against something nobody believes? Where's an example of someone claiming that murder in the name of Islam is okay? Just because some people believe that Islam justifies murder, doesn't mean that all Muslims believe that. Have you ever even spoken to a Muslim? If someone is a Muslim, yet they don't believe in murder or rape, is that wrong? Is it evil? Of course not. People have different interpretations of religions because religions are all stupid anyways. However, claiming that by adhering to a certain religion, you are just as morally wrong as the worst people who adhere to that religion, regardless of your beliefs is even stupider. Thinking that someone is doing something wrong for being a Muslim, even if they think that murder and rape are wrong, is completely against the principles of a free society. If you want to regulate what people are allowed to believe, then go start your own oppressive country. -------------------- "I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson http://phluck.is-after.us
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Carpal Tunnel Registered: 04/10/99 Posts: 11,394 Loc: Canada Last seen: 3 months, 5 days |
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A religion is dictated by the beliefs of its followers, not every little thing written in its scriptures. Those things are contradictory and long winded, and pretty much every religious person ignores or reinterprets certain parts of their scripture to adjust to things they believe.
MANY Muslims have reinterpreted the Quran in a nonviolent manner. You're basically just repeating shit that they have reinterpreted, or ignored, and claiming that they belief in that stuff, when they don't. You can't just pretend that the Muslims that don't believe in that stuff don't matter, because they do. Their beliefs are dictated by what they believe in... if they don't believe something, they don't believe it, whether its in the Quran or not. This isn't exactly rocket science. -------------------- "I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson http://phluck.is-after.us
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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I do not want to use the legal system to attack Islam, I use facts to attack Islam. If you want an example of someone claiming that murder in the name of Islam is OK try Bin Laden. If you are a muslim, you take the Koran as fact, and a basis for law.
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Carpal Tunnel Registered: 04/10/99 Posts: 11,394 Loc: Canada Last seen: 3 months, 5 days |
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I'm not saying that there are no Muslims using the Quran to justify violence. I'm saying most don't.
Whether or not the religion is irrational doesn't matter. All relgions are irrational. Claiming that all Muslims use the Quran to condone violence is just making shit up to justify your bigotry. It's not even remotely true, and anyone with even the slightest ability to use Google can find many examples of Muslims condemning violence. Do you think that all Muslims believe that violence should be used against non-believers? If so, who are these people? http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php -------------------- "I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson http://phluck.is-after.us
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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Carpal Tunnel Registered: 04/10/99 Posts: 11,394 Loc: Canada Last seen: 3 months, 5 days |
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What?
-------------------- "I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson http://phluck.is-after.us
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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Thanks for the link to the homosexual site, I will make sure to read all this bullshit. Muslims would have the publisher tortured to death, but that's OK.
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Carpal Tunnel Registered: 04/10/99 Posts: 11,394 Loc: Canada Last seen: 3 months, 5 days |
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Quote: What the hell? You're like a walking encyclopedia of logical fallacies. "The War on Drugs restricts freedoms. The Taliban also restricts freedoms. Therefore the Taliban is equal to the War on Drugs." "Frogs are green. Leaves are green. Therefore leaves are frogs." -------------------- "I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson http://phluck.is-after.us
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Carpal Tunnel Registered: 04/10/99 Posts: 11,394 Loc: Canada Last seen: 3 months, 5 days |
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What the hell are you talking about about?
Are you going to answer my question: Do all Muslims condone violence against non-believers? And if not, who are the people who are non-violent, yet call themselves muslims? And there are non-violent verses in the Koran: "Thus, if they let you be, and do not make war on you, and offer you peace, God does not allow you to harm them' (4: 90). Certainly, this is contradictory to other parts of the koran, but this doesn't make it invalid. It really just means that the whole thing is nonsense, so whatever the individuals believe is what dictates what they believe. Then again, you're obviously not interested in debating. When someone offers criticism of your points, you don't address them, you just call them "homosexual" and pretend they don't exist. Are you incapable of forming a proper rebuttal? -------------------- "I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson http://phluck.is-after.us Edited by Phluck (08/03/05 10:56 PM)
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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Quote: Your logic is so flawless, how could I counter this claim?
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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Lets take a look at gay rights in muslim nations:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/007379.php
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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Quote: Islam, wtf are you talking about?
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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Protest against Saudi torture and executions
Join our protest on the International Day Against Homophobia. By OutRage News Service Tuesday 17 May 2005 12 noon to 2pm Saudi Arabian Embassy, London 30 Charles Street, London W1J 5DZ (nearest tube Green Park) This protest is part of the worldwide mass protests to mark the first International Day Against Homophobia. Simultaneous protests will take place in 50 cities across the globe. Saudi Arabia has been declared "the world's most homophobic country" following recent mass arrests, torture and flogging of gay Muslims: 35 of the 105 men arrested in March after allegedly attending a "gay wedding" have been sentenced to floggings, some up to 2000 lashes (often fatal). They and the other 70 arrested men have been sentenced to one year?s jail, where they are likely to suffer torture and rape. Saudi Arabia?s unelected leaders enforce a fundamentalist version of Islam. They impose the death penalty for homosexuality. Several gay Muslims have been beheaded in recent years. In spite of these atrocities unleashed on gay Saudis, and the wider human rights abuses perpetrated by the Saudi dictatorship (including the denial of rights to women and religious minorities), the country?s fundamentalist rulers enjoy friendly relations with the UK and the US. Tony Blair and George Bush sell weapons to the Saudi torturers and murderers. It is time the Saudis were named and shamed. Derek Lennard, chair of the Gay & Lesbian Humanist Association (GAHLA) is co-ordinating the UK's participation in IDAHO (International Day Against Homophobia). He is urging all LGBT and human rights groups to turn out on May 17 to ?register our protest against the brutal maltreatment the Saudi Arabian regime metes out to its LGBT citizens.? The IDAHO protest at the Saudi Embassy is supported by OutRage! and the Gay & Lesbian Humanist Association. We urge a wide cross section of LGBT individuals and organisations to join us on Tuesday. Amnesty International is also appealing for intervention against the Saudis: ?It is hoped Tuesday?s protest will help draw public attention to the abuse of gay human rights in the Saudi kingdom, and prompt international sanctions by the EU and the UN,? said Brett Lock of OutRage! Relevant Links: Amnesty International briefing on Saudi Arabia's latest attack on gay human rights. Most recent articles on this topic: Iran executions 28 July 2005 Iran executes gay teenagers 21 July 2005 Gay Turk hunger striker wins concessions 6 July 2005 Poland fails EU human rights obligations 8 June 2005 Gay Saudis tortured, flogged and executed 17 May 2005 Previous articles on this topic: Gays join anti-war protest 20 March 2005 Solidarity with Iraqi women 8 March 2005 Candlelight vigil and wreath-laying 11 November 2004 Lesbian activist murdered in Sierra Leone 5 October 2004 ?Homophobic sadism? of US troops in Iraq condemned 28 May 2004 http://outrage.nabumedia.com/pressrelease.asp?ID=289
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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"They bounced me around the room as if playing a violent game of pass-the-parcel. I was pushed to the floor and repeatedly kicked in the backside, crotch and stomach. My head was held up and I was slapped on the back of the head and face, around the ears.
They took inordinate care not to hit me in the front of the face. They threatened me with the use of electric shocks. I was told they would continue to apply this pressure until "We have put you in the right way," and "we get your mind right." There was a desk and chairs in the room. From time to time they would sit me down, the Greaser beside me, aggressively caressing and fondling me, a means of sexual intimidation he was to use often." http://watch.windsofchange.net/themes_88.htm
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Carpal Tunnel Registered: 04/10/99 Posts: 11,394 Loc: Canada Last seen: 3 months, 5 days |
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Are you going to answer my question:
Do all Muslims condone violence against non-believers? And if not, who are the people who are non-violent, yet call themselves muslims? And there are non-violent verses in the Koran: "Thus, if they let you be, and do not make war on you, and offer you peace, God does not allow you to harm them' (4: 90). Certainly, this is contradictory to other parts of the koran, but this doesn't make it invalid. It really just means that the whole thing is nonsense, so whatever the individuals believe is what dictates what they believe. Then again, you're obviously not interested in debating. When someone offers criticism of your points, you don't address them, you just call them "homosexual" and pretend they don't exist. Are you incapable of forming a proper rebuttal? -------------------- "I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson http://phluck.is-after.us
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Carpal Tunnel Registered: 04/10/99 Posts: 11,394 Loc: Canada Last seen: 3 months, 5 days |
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Quote: Well, you could try and explain to me how because the War on Drugs restricts some freedoms, this makes it the same thing as something that restricts far more freedoms. -------------------- "I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson http://phluck.is-after.us
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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Quote: This would aply to muslims harming other muslims, if you are not a muslim you have no rights. Do you understand or not? If there are muslims that are non-violent they are not following their "profit's" example.
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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Muhammad was a sadistic child molester!
http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8072&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
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Carpal Tunnel Registered: 04/10/99 Posts: 11,394 Loc: Canada Last seen: 3 months, 5 days |
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The contents of the scriptures are immaterial. What people actually believe is not.
Why do you, a non-Muslim, give a shit whether or not Muslims take the Koran 100% literally. Do you consider Christians who don't take the bible 100% literally to be Christian? Do you have anything against the many, many people who call themselves Muslims, yet oppose violence? If so, then why don't you attack other religions whose scriptures contain passages condoning violence? It seems pretty obvious to me that if your objection to Islam is violence, you should only oppose those Muslims who condone violence. What's the point of attacking Muslims who oppose violence? Isn't that just being a bully? -------------------- "I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson http://phluck.is-after.us
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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008.006 Disputing with thee concerning the truth after it was made manifest, as if they were being driven to death and they (actually) saw it.
008.007 Behold! Allah promised you one of the two (enemy) parties, that it should be yours: Ye wished that the one unarmed should be yours, but Allah willed to justify the Truth according to His words and to cut off the roots of the Unbelievers;- 008.008 That He might justify Truth and prove Falsehood false, distasteful though it be to those in guilt. 008.009 Remember ye implored the assistance of your Lord, and He answered you: "I will assist you with a thousand of the angels, ranks on ranks." 008.010 Allah made it but a message of hope, and an assurance to your hearts: (in any case) there is no help except from Allah: and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise. 008.011 Remember He covered you with a sort of drowsiness, to give you calm as from Himself, and he caused rain to descend on you from heaven, to clean you therewith, to remove from you the stain of Satan, to strengthen your hearts, and to plant your feet firmly therewith. 008.012 Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them." 008.013 This because they contended against Allah and His Apostle: If any contend against Allah and His Apostle, Allah is strict in punishment. 008.014 Thus (will it be said): "Taste ye then of the (punishment): for those who resist Allah, is the penalty of the Fire." 008.015 O ye who believe! when ye meet the Unbelievers in hostile array, never turn your backs to them. 008.016 If any do turn his back to them on such a day - unless it be in a stratagem of war, or to retreat to a troop (of his own)- he draws on himself the wrath of Allah, and his abode is Hell,- an evil refuge (indeed)! 008.017 It is not ye who slew them; it was Allah: when thou threwest (a handful of dust), it was not thy act, but Allah?s: in order that He might test the Believers by a gracious trial from Himself: for Allah is He Who heareth and knoweth (all things). _______________________________________________________________ A single page of Koran and see the vulgarity of Muhammad's thinking here. Carefully check those verses one by one. How many times you meet Kill, mutilate, hell, fire... And remember, this is just a random page of Koran!!
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Carpal Tunnel Registered: 04/10/99 Posts: 11,394 Loc: Canada Last seen: 3 months, 5 days |
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Obviously you don't understand my point at all.
-------------------- "I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson http://phluck.is-after.us
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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Quote: Muslims who oppose violence? Who? Where? Are you talking about the muslim women who are raped and beaten by their "husbands"
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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These are links to on-line Quran and Ahadith and a few other related sources of information.
http://members.cox.net/arshad/hadithcol.html http://www.salafipublications.com/sps/smm/ http://www.salafipublications.com/sps/sbk/ http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/reference/searchhadith.html http://www.thenoblequran.com/sps/nbq/ http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/ http://www.hti.umich.edu/k/koran/simple.html http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/quran/ http://www.shariah-institute.org/science.htm http://www.apostatesofislam.com/quran/analyzer.htm http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11728
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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Quote: Your point is, you believe Islam is a religion of peace. Am I wrong?
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Carpal Tunnel Registered: 04/10/99 Posts: 11,394 Loc: Canada Last seen: 3 months, 5 days |
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Muslims who oppose violence? Who? Where? Right here in the link you refused to read earlier because it doesn't validate your biases: http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php What do you consider those people? -------------------- "I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson http://phluck.is-after.us
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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You should try studying a cult BEFORE you blindly defend it.
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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The same as a Nazi claiming to oppose violence, extremely dishonest.
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Carpal Tunnel Registered: 04/10/99 Posts: 11,394 Loc: Canada Last seen: 3 months, 5 days |
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Listen, I know there are lots of passages in the Koran that condone violence, but just like every single other religion, lots of people who follow it have their own interpretation that is far from literal.
I'm not sure if you think that every single muslim secretly believes in a literal version of the Koran, or if you think that people who don't believe in a literal version of the Koran shouldn't be called Muslims, but either way: If you believe the first thing, well you're just plain wrong. If you believe the second thing, then you're alienating and belittling the faith of a HUGE group of people who AGREE with you, which isn't exactly a good way to further your goals. -------------------- "I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson http://phluck.is-after.us
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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Genocide committed in the name of Allah: 3,000,000 Bangladeshi Hindus Killed during the Pakistan-Bangladesh war in 1971. From 1894 to 1896 Abdul Hamid, Sultan of the Ottoman Empire, killed 150,000 Armenian Christians. In India, Sikh Guru Tegh Bahadur along with his disciples was burned to death by the Moghul ruler Aurangzeb in 1675. Another Sikh, Bhai Mati Das was sawn into right and left halves while he was still alive. In July 1974, 4,000 Christians living in Cyprus were killed by Fahri Koroturk, president of Turkey and his Islamic army. From 1843 to 1846 10,000 Assyrian Christians including women and children were massacred by the Muslims. From 1915 to 1918 750,000 Assyrians were killed in the name of Islamic Jihad. In 1933 thousands of Assyrian villagers were murdered by the Iraqi soldiers in Northern Iraq. Since 1990 more than 10,000 Kashmiri Hindus have been brutally murdered by Islamic fundamentalists. Over 280,000 Ugandans killed during the reign of Idi Amin from 1971 to 1979. Over 30,000 Mauritanians have been killed by the Islamic dictators since 1960. In 1980, 20,000 Syrians were murdered under the rule of Hafez Al-Assad, President of Syria. Since 1992 120,000 Algerians have been murdered by the Islamic fundamentalist army.
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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Mohammed - "A True Saint"
A fter posting last week's article Mohammed's High Regard For Women, I realized that I did not do justice to the "Great" Mohammed and his personality. So, here,I will extrapolate my previous week's article and bring forth his glamorous life and views once again for you. Lets start with quotes from the "heavenly" Hadiths and the "ocean of knowledge", Koran. (Al-Hadis, Vol. 3, p. 137) Abu Sayeed al-Khodri reported that Mohammed was talking to a group of women when he said, "... I see the majority of you will go to Hell." The women asked why, to which Mohammed responded, "You often curse and are ungrateful to your companions." He then told them they had a basic defect in their nature, to which they responded, "How?" Mohammed answered, "Is not the attestation (knowledge and witness) of a women only worth half of a man's? And that is on account of her short intelligence." This quote really brings out Mohammed's "shining" views on women. He automatically condemns the majority of them to hell. According to him a woman's intellectual capacity is only half that of a man and that is why two women are required as witnesses as compared to one man. He was so scared of women's intelligence that he said, "a man should not walk between two women" (Al Hadis, Vol. 1, p. 586) as that would mean that the man was taking a risk of being on equal turf according to Mohammed. (Al Hadis, Vol. 2, p. 692) Ibn Ma`sud reported from the Messenger of Allah who said, "A woman is like a private part (sex organ). When she goes out (walking) the devil casts a glance at her (in lust)." Well, this clearly gives us an insight into Mohammed's "pure" mind. To him women were nothing but walking vaginas to be used as objects for sexual fulfillment. No wonder he required women to be completely covered from head to toe. He had to have some way to control his lust! (Koran, 4:34) ...Guard in (the husband's)absence what Allah would have them guard... This verse is demanding that the women should guard their private parts for the sake of their husbands. Again, this tells us the low opinion that Mohammed held for women-- objects to be used for sexual fulfillment. Nowhere in the Koran or the Hadiths does it say that a man should guard his private parts or abstain from sex in the absence of their wives. A man can even engage in sexual intercourse with young boys/men without much rebuke from Allah. This is supported by the verses stated below: (Koran 4:15) If two men among you commit indecency (sodomy) punish them both. If they repent and mend their ways, let them be. Allah is forgiving and merciful. (Koran 4:16) If any one of your women is guilty of lewdness ...confine them until death claims them. As you can see, for women any sort of sexual exploration is punishable by death. Whereas for a man, any form of perversion is pardoned by the all merciful Allah. Such fairness can only be found in the "holiest of the holiest books", the Koran. (Koran 4:34) ...As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them, refuse to share their beds and BEAT THEM... Mohammed was an old perverted nutcase. He was so insecure about himself that he thought that showing physical prowess over women would serve as a reminder to him of his manliness. Thus, he encouraged wife beating! In Islam equality between a man and a woman is a far cry. A man needs only to be suspicious to justify the bestial act of beating his wife. (Al Hadis, Vol. 1, p. 215) Omar reported from the Holy Prophet who said, "No man shall be questioned for beating his wife." In the very next Hadith a woman complained to Mohammed that her husband beat her while she prayed. Mohammed told her to change her time of prayer or pray shorter prayers so that her husband could get on with the joy of beating her. (Reported by Abu Sayeed al-Kodri, Attest by Abu Daud) Could Mohammed degrade women any further? If you are asking yourself this question then surprisingly you have not yet grasped the true nature of this "great Prophet" . He allowed the utterly inhuman practice of circumcision for females. In this type of circumcision a girl's clitoris is carved away, so that she may never experience climax during sexual intercourse and her vulva is sewn shut until it is cut open at the time of marriage! Such "great" practices can only be sactioned by Islam-- the religion for all women to embrace! (Al Hadis, Vol. 1, p. 738) Abul Malih reported that the Messenger of Allah said, "Circumcision is Sunnat (required by Islamic law) for males and optional for females." OK, enough of looking at the negative side of Islam. Now lets look at the positive side of this religion. Mohammed said that a man before marrying a woman has to pay her a dowry. Surely, as the many devout muslims would say, you can't criticize that. Ah, but they are mistaken, then again, that's not anything new. Read the quote below from Al Hadis. (Al Hadis, Vol. 2, p. 657) Oqbah-b- A`mer reported that the Messenger of Allah said, "The most equitable of the conditions of marriage is that you should fulfil that (dowry) with which you have made private parts lawful." So, according to Mohammed and his Allah a man has to pay the woman before he can use her private parts. Which means that the man is supposed to treat his wife as a prostitute by paying her before he gets a legal permit for having sex. This implies that the foundation for marriage in Islam is to provide a man with legal sexual gratification and nothing else matters. Now, hold on! Doesn't Islam say that prostitution is not allowed? Of course, it does! It's right there in Sahih Muslim Hadith: (Sahih Muslim Hadith Chapter 619) Selling a cat, selling a dog (unless it is a working dog), and earning of prostitutes(unless they are non-muslims),... are all forbidden. Here we have a contradiction! But, again, that is nothing new for the Koran. It is full of contradictions. But I digress, a separate article will be devoted to this in the coming weeks. Back to the dowry issue. Mohammed was not a man who would have people speculate on what he has said. He had to specify what he meant by dowry and specify he did in Al Hadis, Vol. 2, p. 659 (57). He said that, "a handful of barley or dates is enough." Not only are the wives supposed to be treated as prostitutes, but as prostitutes who only deserve "a handful of barley or dates". Another quote from the Hadith gives total control of women's lives to men. (Al Hadis, Vol 2, p. 651) Abu Hurairah reported that the Messenger of Allah said, "No woman shall give a woman in marriage, nor shall a woman give herself in marriage. Verily, the fornicatress is she that marries by herself." Here Mohammed takes away the right of a woman to choose her husband. She has no right to decide how to live her life. This basic right is snatched away from her and given to a man. Furthermore, this implies that a widow has no final authority over her daughter in Islam. As if men didn't already have the legal freedom to control and degrade women's lives that they were granted further control to degrade women. During a Jihad expedition (holy war) Mohammed's men came to him very frustrated. As seen in the quote below: (Al Hadis, Vol. 2, p. 686) Ibn Masud reported, "We were fighting with the Messenger of Allah, and our wives were not with us. We asked the Messenger of Allah, 'Should we castrate ourselves?' The Holy Prophet forbade us from that, and then he allowed us Muta (temporary) marriage. So, we all married wives for a fixed time (usually three days) for the dowry of a piece of cloth." Here Mohammed clearly tells the muslims to forget about the prostitutes they had purchased for a handful of dates back home and to have fun with these new victims who come even cheaper. They can be bought and violated for only a piece of cloth. Allah is truly merciful! Praise be to Allah! In other civilized countries this is called rape--plain and simple. The mullahs happily approve this dastardly deed by quoting from the Koran. (Koran, 5:87): "...Make not unlawful the good things Allah hath made lawful for you." Thus this heinous crime is still committed by muslims as attested by the Indo-Pak war, Arab-Israeli war, Iraq- Iran war, Iraq-Kuwait war, etc. Sometimes Mohammed's lust was so great that he conveniently forgot all the Koranic verses invented by him and did not have time to come up with an ammendment. One instance of this is noted when he married Safiya, a Jewish girl, after killing her father and her betrothed husband. He did not want to go through the long laborious procedure of finding a sponsor, paying the dowry, sending out invitations, or preparing a wedding feast. In fact, Mohammed skipped over the usual law of waiting until her next monthly was passed. He consummated his "marriage" to her on a sand dune with the blood and gore of Jihad still covering him, even Safiya's father's blood, no doubt. This is another case of rape, but for Mohammed it was just a beautiful marriage sanctioned by the All Perverted Allah! It is sickening to read the Koran and the Hadiths and the low and inhuman opinion that this so called despicable Mohammed has on women. (Al Hadis, Vol. 2. p. 638) Abdur Rahman- b-Salem reported that the Apostle of Allah said, "You should marry virgins, and verily they are sweeter in tongue, more prolific in wombs, and easily satisfied with little." I don't think I need to explain the quote above. It is quite clear. The list of legalized inhuman acts continues on. For example, a man has a right to divorce his wife by uttering the word, "Talaq" only three times, whereas a woman has no such right, a man can have upto four wives. No such "privilege" exists for a woman in Islam. A man may practise sodomy and in fact, it is even encouraged as it is legal in the muslim Paradise. But any sort of lewdness for women is punishable by death. Some would now think that there is absolutely no hope for women in Islam. How dare you let such a thought enter your filthy mind! May you be roasted in hellfire for thinking this way. Actually, the "all merciful" Allah did tell Mohammed that a woman can enter paradise! How, you may ask? Well, it's quite simple. All she has to do is please her husband--answer to his mating call wherever or whenever he wants and Bingo!, she's got a free one-way ticket to paradise! See how easy it is. She doesn't have to be intelligent, she doesn't have to have a good personality and she need not perform any good deeds. All she has to do is obey and please her husband. That's it! She gets to go to paradise and watch her husband make out with the 72 Houris and 28 young boys-- every woman's dream come true. Is it any wonder that Mohammed's wives fought over him every night? Again, I have listed the quotes below which support my point. (Al Hadis, Vol. 1, p. 211 (60)) Omme Salmah reported that the messenger of Allah said, "Any female (wife or concubine) who dies while her husband was pleased with her will enter Paradise." This is clarified in the very next Hadith. (Al Hadis, Vol. 1, p.211 (61)) Tal qe-b-Ali reported that the Messenger of Allah said, "When a man calls his wife to satisfy his desire, let her come to him though she is occupied at the oven." (Al Hadis, Vol. 4, p. 172, No. 34) Ali reported that the Apostle of Allah said, "There is in Paradise a market wherein there will be no buying or selling, but will consist of men and women. When a man desires a beauty, he will have intercourse with them." Notice that all the privileges are granted to men and even though women may enter paradise they do not get 72 male sex bombs and 28 young girls. Shouldn't it be the same for them as well? One can imagine how Muslims must treat women of other faiths if they treat Muslim women in such a degrading manner. One should not accept much from a religion which dictates how one should piss, fart, and shit! (Al Hadis, Vol. 2, p. 682-683, No. 106) Ayesha reported that the Prophet of Allah enquired as he was dying, "Where shall I pass tomorrow, where shall I pass tomorrow?" He was hoping it would be me (Ayesha), so his other wives gave him permission to use their turns so he could be with me (Ayesha) until he died. Picture this, here is a "saintly" old man dying in the arms of his seventeen year old child bride and still fantasizing about which one of his wives to have sex with the next day. How truly divine the Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) was!! http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate/libido.html
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Carpal Tunnel Registered: 04/10/99 Posts: 11,394 Loc: Canada Last seen: 3 months, 5 days |
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Wow, another list of numbers that has nothing to do with my point.
-------------------- "I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson http://phluck.is-after.us
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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Notice that all the privileges are granted to men and even though women may enter paradise they do not get 72 male sex bombs and 28 young girls. Shouldn't it be the same for them as well?
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Carpal Tunnel Registered: 04/10/99 Posts: 11,394 Loc: Canada Last seen: 3 months, 5 days |
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I'm out of here, this thread is ridiculous.
I like getting engaged in debates if people actually respond to my points and come back with good ones of their own, instead of just flooding the thread with articles they didn't write, and occasionally popping in to repeat the same things over and over without trying to address anything I say. -------------------- "I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson http://phluck.is-after.us
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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Where did Mohammed come up with these numbers, and why would he promise 28 young boys in paradise if he was not a homosexual or bisexual?
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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(Koran, 4:34) ...Guard in (the husband's)absence what Allah would have them guard...
This verse is demanding that the women should guard their private parts for the sake of their husbands. Again, this tells us the low opinion that Mohammed held for women-- objects to be used for sexual fulfillment. Nowhere in the Koran or the Hadiths does it say that a man should guard his private parts or abstain from sex in the absence of their wives. A man can even engage in sexual intercourse with young boys/men without much rebuke from Allah. This is supported by the verses stated below: (Koran 4:15) If two men among you commit indecency (sodomy) punish them both. If they repent and mend their ways, let them be. Allah is forgiving and merciful. (Koran 4:16) If any one of your women is guilty of lewdness ...confine them until death claims them.
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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Quote: What points, that not all muslims are violent? I did actually respond. Not all Nazis are violent, but they support a violent system of oppression. Is Hitler a prophet of god, what about Pol Pot?
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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I wish you were willing to read the articles, rather than brushing them off as to long or irrelevant.
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Carpal Tunnel Registered: 04/10/99 Posts: 11,394 Loc: Canada Last seen: 3 months, 5 days |
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Not all Muslims support Muslim governments. If they did, then they would all support a violent system of oppression, but they don't. Many believe in the spiritual aspects of Islam, yet do not believe in the extreme political viewpoints that some other Muslims believe in.
Why, might I ask, were you posting all these violent quotes from the Koran? It almost seems as though you're under the impression that you're arguing with someone who believes that the Koran is entirely non-violent. I obviously don't believe that, so I'm not sure what that's going to prove to me. Is Hitler a prophet of god, what about Pol Pot? Obviously not, and that's partly my point. Those people are political leaders, to be a follower of them, you're following political ideas. You can be a Muslim without adopting extreme politics, because unlike Nazism, it's a religion, and not a political belief. Anyways, I'm going to bed. -------------------- "I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson http://phluck.is-after.us
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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Islam is an Arabian Nationalist political movement, disguised as a religion, this is not new to Islam. Are you seriously trying to say that Mohammed was not a political leader, and a bad one at that? We don't know if Nazism will have a cult following in 1400 years but its possible, considering there are people who defend equally hateful, hypocritical, and flawed cults, such as Islam. Mohammed was worse than Hitler, Stalin, and even Pol Pot, because at least these mass murdering politicians did not claim to be prophets. Mohammed ranks with the false Christians of the dark ages, who had people burned alive, claiming of course they were doing this in god's name. At least Stalin and Hitler did not claim there were torturing people in gods name, or because god commanded it. Islam therefore, has continued to do damage, centuries after the Arabian Nationalist political leader known as Mohammed, died. Other religions are not as bad as Islam because even though crimes have been committed in the past by people claiming they were doing these crimes for their religion, the Koran itself and the "profit" who founded it, was a sadistic, hypocrite. Muslims continue to commit crimes against humanity, not because they misinterpreted the Koran, but because they are doing what their unholy book tells them to do, kill the "kafirs", rape their women, beat your women if you suspect them! Because Muhammed was a sexist, rapist, pedophile, and sadist, muslims in general are such. They are not like the false Christians, they are true Muslims, doing what Islam commands of them.
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Carpal Tunnel Registered: 04/10/99 Posts: 11,394 Loc: Canada Last seen: 3 months, 5 days |
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A) Do you have any numbers on percentages of Muslims who engage in, or condone rape, murder, pedophilia, etc...? You said: "Because Muhammed was a sexist, rapist, pedophile, and sadist, muslims in general are such." But that is not a logical assumption to make. You haven't provided any evidence that most Muslims actually think this way. You have made assumptions based on the contents of the Koran. I have known several Muslims in my life, and they have all behaved pretty much like all other humans. I have no reason to believe that any of them engaged in rape, murder, or pedophilia.
Your tactics are completely irrational. Why would you want to promote hatred towards all Muslims, when many people who consider themselves Muslim do not condone violence? You can't entirely wipe out a religion, that is a completely unreasonable goal. You can, however, slowly adapt a group of people to peaceful thinking. You can do this by encouraging the members of the group who already promote peace to work within their community to spread their message. Obviously no Muslim is going to listen to some guy who thinks that they're all evil. That guy is just going to make them angry, and help to foster the idea that they're being persecuted, further promoting violent thinking. Is that your goal? Obviously you're opposed to violent Muslims... so what's the point in attacking all of them, making them all angry? Even a peaceful Muslim is going to think you're a dick, and will have absolutely no repect for your opinions. Your attitude is exactly the kind of thing that the violent Muslims look for to justify their actions. B) Do you realize that in the past, pedophilia was far more common in many different cultures? Even a few hundred years ago, it was not uncommon for middle aged European men to marry twelve year old girls. It's only natural that people from ancient times are going to come up looking pretty evil if you judge them by the standards of today. C) A quote from Mein Kampf: Quote: D) From the Bible: http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=Numbers%2031:7-18&version=31; Quote: So murdering nonvirgins, and kidnapping women to take for yourself is condoned in the bible, therefore doing this kind of thing does not make you a "false christian". You can go here: http://www.evilbible.com/ for all kinds of examples of weirdness in the bible. The bible advocates stoning women to death if they are unfaithful, yet you seem to consider Christians who practice such things "false Christians", while Muslims who practice the violent parts of their scripture are following things accurately. However, many Christians interpret the bible much differently from its literal translation. Just like many Muslims interpret the Koran much differently from its literal translation. You seem to believe that the contents of the Koran are evidence that most Muslims follow it literally, but this is not the case. Many, many Muslims do not take it literally, and unless you can provide the results of a widespread survey or census on the number of Muslims who hold the literal beliefs outlined in the quotes you keep pasting, the details of what the quotes say are meaningless. Look, here are a few things from the bible, advocating murdering all kinds of people: Quote: So why aren't the Christians who do not advocate the murder of adulterers, homosexuals, nonbelievers, and followers of other religions considered "false Christians", instead of the ones who do? It seems you've got a double standard for Islam and Christianity. -------------------- "I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson http://phluck.is-after.us
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Seeker Registered: 06/15/05 Posts: 376 Loc: Inside my head Last seen: 18 years, 4 months |
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Quote: A double standard??? In america??? I am shocked! /gasp! -------------------- Think for yourself. Question authority. Forgiveness is the ultimate sacrifice. You can fool some people sometimes, but you can't fool all the people all the time.
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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I hate Islam, not Muslims. Can you see a difference? A person claiming to be a prophet should set a good example. Cutting off various body parts, rape, torture, kidnapping, pedophilia and murder are all actions that a prophet can not condone. Attacking other religions is simply not going to have any effect on my opinion. You have not told me why I should consider this greedy, selfish, Arabian Nationalist politician to be a good person or a prophet of god, even Hitler did not go so far as to claim that he had word from god to kill the Jews, he admits this is his assumption.
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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Muslims, and those who live in muslim nations are the main victim of Islam. While the rest of the world has moved on, muslims are still living in the dark ages. I want to help muslims see that Mohhamed was an evil tyrant, and his cult is holding them back. I am not trying to convert them to any other religion, and I am not trying to force them to leave Islam. I am trying to convince them to leave Islam, because Islam is hurting Muslims most of all. Muslim women are not the only people that are harmed by Mohhamed's teachings. Muslim men, as well as religius minorities living in the areas where Islam is the main "religion" live in constant fear of torture and death.
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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You get jerks in any country and in any religion. Rape, for instance, is universally condemned in Western or Christian nations. But Islam teaches its sons that raping an infidel women in a Dar al Harb country is acceptable. It's really just taking war brides, so that's all right.
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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As Robert Spencer has demonstrated, rape can indeed be linked to Islamic teachings of Jihad, and even to the example of Muhammad himself, his Sunna. Above all, it is connected to Islamic notions of the role of women in society, and their behaviour in the public sphere. An Islamic Mufti in Copenhagen sparked a political outcry after publicly declaring that women who refuse to wear headscarves are ?asking for rape.? Apparently, he isn?t the only Muslim in Europe to think this way:
The German journalist Udo Ulfkotte told in a recent interview that in Holland, you can now see examples of young, unveiled Moroccan women with a so-called ?smiley?. It means that the girl gets one side of her face cut up from mouth to ear, serving as a warning to other Muslim girls who should refuse to wear the veil. In the Muslim suburb of Courneuve, France, 77 per cent of the veiled women carry veils reportedly because of fear of being harassed or molested by Islamic moral patrols. Hijab, the Islamic veil, is thus not ?just a piece of cloth?. It serves as a demarcation line between proper, submissive Muslim women and whores, un-Islamic women who deserve no respect and are asking for rape. The veil should more properly be viewed as the uniform of a Totalitarian movement, and a signal to attack those outside the movement. Judged in the light of the Mufti who said that women who don?t wear it are asking for rape, how on earth can the veil be said to be about ?choice?? The freedom to choose not to be raped if you dress in a normal fashion in your own country? Is that what freedom is about in Europe in 2005? http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/1372959/posts
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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Quote: Clarification Please. Where does the First quote with Moses Come from? You give NO citations.
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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Jesus, Buddha, Mahavir, Gandhiji are very great people. They chose path of Love, Kindness, Peace, Non-violence and Led an example. By following their path, One can attain internal peace, spiritual enlightenment and lead a peaceful life.
But, Mohammed was Prophet of Satan. Killing, Looting, Pedophilia, lechery, Raping are the characteristics of Satan. Mohammed was not having single Quality to be called as Messenger of God. Either Mohammed was a liar (or) He was deceived by Satan. He created Islam for his sole purpose of Lust for Power, Sex. He has not created a peaceful religion, He has created a Barbaric, intolerant, Morally Corrupted, Wicked, Imperialistic Cult. I am 100% Sure, Mohammed must be rotten in Hell right now. A Big Disappointment is awaiting for his blind followers.
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Seeker Registered: 06/15/05 Posts: 376 Loc: Inside my head Last seen: 18 years, 4 months |
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Ahh yes good ol satan. The scapegoat for all mankind's problems.
-------------------- Think for yourself. Question authority. Forgiveness is the ultimate sacrifice. You can fool some people sometimes, but you can't fool all the people all the time.
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Carpal Tunnel Registered: 04/10/99 Posts: 11,394 Loc: Canada Last seen: 3 months, 5 days |
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![]() I see what your problem is, you believe in fairy tales. No wonder you are unable to get a subjective view. -------------------- "I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson http://phluck.is-after.us
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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Tabari IX:113 ?Allah permits you to shut them in separate rooms and to beat them, but not severely. If they abstain, they have the right to food and clothing. Treat women well for they are like domestic animals and they possess nothing themselves. Allah has made the enjoyment of their bodies lawful in his Qur?an.?
Tabari I:280 ?Allah said, ?It is My obligation to make Eve bleed once every month as she made this tree bleed. I must also make Eve stupid, although I created her intelligent.? Because Allah afflicted Eve, all of the women of this world menstruate and are stupid.? Qur?an 4:3 ?If you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with orphans, marry women of your choice who seem good to you, two or three or four; but if you fear that you shall not be able to do justice (to so many), then only one, or (a slave) that you possess, that will be more suitable. And give the women their dower as a free gift; but if they, of their own good pleasure, remit any part of it to you, eat it with enjoyment, take it with right good cheer and absorb it (in your wealth).? Qur?an 4:11 ?Allah directs you in regard of your Children?s (inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females?. These are settled portions ordained by Allah.? Bukhari:V1B22N28 ?The Prophet said: ?I was shown the Hell Fire and the majority of its dwellers were women who are disbelievers or ungrateful.? When asked what they were ungrateful for, the Prophet answered, ?All the favors done for them by their husbands.?? Muslim:B1N142 ??O womenfolk, you should ask for forgiveness for I saw you in bulk amongst the dwellers of Hell.? A wise lady said: Why is it, Allah?s Apostle, that women comprise the bulk of the inhabitants of Hell? The Prophet observed: ?You curse too much and are ungrateful to your spouses. You lack common sense, fail in religion and rob the wisdom of the wise.? Upon this the woman remarked: What is wrong with our common sense? The Prophet replied, ?Your lack of common sense can be determined from the fact that the evidence of two women is equal to one man. That is a proof.?? Qur?an 4:43 ?Believers, approach not prayers with a mind befogged or intoxicated until you understand what you utter. Nor when you are polluted, until after you have bathed. If you are ill, or on a journey, or come from answering the call of nature, or you have touched a woman, and you find no water, then take for yourselves clean dirt, and rub your faces and hands. Lo! Allah is Benign, Forgiving.? [The Qur?an claims women are unclean and polluted?worse than dirt.] Bukhari:V4B55N547 ?The Prophet said, ?But for the Israelis, meat would not decay, and if it were not for Eve, wives would never betray their husbands.?? Qur?an 33:59 ?Prophet! Tell your wives and daughters and all Muslim women to draw cloaks and veils all over their bodies (screening themselves completely except for one or two eyes to see the way). That will be better.? Qur?an 4:15 ?If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four witnesses from amongst you against them; if they testify, confine them to houses until death [by starvation] claims them.? Bukhari:V4B52N143/V5B59N523 ?When we reached Khaybar, Muhammad said that Allah had enabled him to conquer them. It was then that the beauty of Safiyah was described to him. Her husband had been killed, so Allah?s Apostle selected her for himself. He took her along with him till we reached a place called Sad where her menses were over and he took her for his wife, consummating his marriage to her, and forcing her to wear the veil.?? Bukhari:V5B59N524 ?The Muslims said among themselves, ?Will Safiyah be one of the Prophet?s wives or just a lady captive and one of his possessions??? Ishaq:593 ?From the captives of Hunayn, Allah?s Messenger gave [his son-in-law] Ali a slave girl called Baytab and he gave [future Caliph] Uthman a slave girl called Zaynab and [future Caliph] Umar another.? Bukhari:V3B48N826 ?The Prophet said, ?Isn?t the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?? The women said, ?Yes.? He said, ?This is because of the deficiency of a woman?s mind.?? Ishaq:584 ?Tell the men with you who have wives: never trust a woman.? Ishaq:185 ?In hell I saw women hanging by their breasts. They had fathered bastards.? Qur?an 24:31 ?Say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty except what (must) appear; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display them except to their husbands...? Qur?an 24:34 ?Force not your slave-girls to whoredom (prostitution) if they desire chastity, that you may seek enjoyment of this life. [And here?s the freedom-to-pimp card:] But if anyone forces them, then after such compulsion, Allah is oft-forgiving.? Ishaq:469 ?The Apostle said, ?Every wailing woman lies except those who wept for Sa?d.?? Tabari VIII:62/Ishaq:496 ?Ali [Muhammad?s adopted son, son-in-law, and future Caliph] said, ?Prophet, women are plentiful. You can get a replacement, easily changing one for another.?? Ishaq:496 ?Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.? So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, ?Tell the Apostle the truth.?? Qur?an 24:1 ?(This is) a surah which We have revealed and made obligatory and in which We have revealed clear communications that you may be mindful. For the woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication, flog each of them with a hundred stripes. Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah. And let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.? Qur?an 24:6 ?And for those who launch a charge against their wives, accusing them, but have no witnesses or evidence, except themselves; let the testimony of one of them be four testimonies, (swearing four times) by Allah that he is the one speaking the truth.?
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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Carpal Tunnel Registered: 04/10/99 Posts: 11,394 Loc: Canada Last seen: 3 months, 5 days |
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Where does the First quote with Moses Come from? You give NO citations. Huh? Click on the link right above it. All the quotes there come with the references to where you can find them in the bible. Look them up. Religions are all pretty stupid, Islam included. Anyone who follows the words of pretty much any religion 100% literally will have to be a violent hypocrite, this goes for Christianity, Judaism, Islam, and plenty more. However, those people who follow the religions the way most people follow religions, using them as a guideline and taking what they choose, tend to be good people. Singling out Islam as though all followers of it are bad people is bigotry. Take someone like Irshad Manji. She's a Muslim woman who is calling for all kinds of progressive changes. She is peaceful, a lesbian, intelligent, and outspoken. She is certainly not in favor of rape and murder. However, the venomous hate-filled rants you spew refuse to see Muslims as different people. It seems that to you, they are all the same; a bunch of evil, violent assholes. You don't give a shit about what their actual opinions are, you just know they're muslims, and that means you're supposed to hate them. That's pretty much textbook bigotry right there. http://www.muslim-refusenik.com/thebook.html -------------------- "I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson http://phluck.is-after.us
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Bullshit Registered: 04/04/05 Posts: 12,486 Loc: . |
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Quote: Fanatics
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Fred's son Registered: 10/18/00 Posts: 12,949 Loc: Dominican Republ Last seen: 9 years, 17 days |
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Okay fellows. Enough of this Islam vs Christianity derailment. The title of this thread is "Do you support the war on drugs?" not "Which religion is shittier?"
If the next post in this thread doesn't address the drug war, the thread will be locked. Phred
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LibertarianEnfor Registered: 04/23/05 Posts: 581 Last seen: 18 years, 1 month |
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The war on drugs is fueled by greed and sadism, kind of like Islam.
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Stranger Registered: 06/26/05 Posts: 731 |
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The ones responsible for the war on drugs are the drug addicts and anyone else with a drug problem.
-------------------- Bush bashers beware http://graypantherssf.igc.org/guantanamo.html http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=46501
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Turn up the sile Registered: 08/04/08 Posts: 373 Loc: Inside of Emptyn Last seen: 11 years, 7 months |
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Well I believe in Peace, democracy and human rights so no I do not and never will support the ridiculous war on drugs.
Edited by libertyshroom (12/18/08 02:02 PM)
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