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z@z.com said:

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Paradigm said:

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downforpot said:
Yep, even an ordinary hippie at a protest will go nuts. I've seen this happen, I've seen peace protestors go nuts and attack people when not at protests. Human Nature

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I've never been in a fight in my life. I don't resort to violence as a means to solve problems. Am I devoid of human nature?

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I was exactly like you until I went to college and saw a guy hit a girl at a party. He made her bleed from her lip and I made him get surgery for his broken nose. Was I wrong to defend that girl? It wasn't self defense as that guy didn't pose the slightest threat to me. Is me defending the rights of another wrong?

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Sycronica said:

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looner2 said:

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Sycronica said:
Organized violence is the bane of humankind and the worst sin by far. Only mindless, warmongering barbarians hunger for it. Anyone with half an ounce of sense can see you can achieve much more for the betterment of all by working together than destroying each other. Sadly this is lost on alot of people.

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Only the cowardly and weak repress their instinct for war.

"Men grow tired of sleep, love, singing, and dancing, sooner than of war."

--Homer

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When Homer lived sleep, love, singing, dancing and war was about all there was to human existance. Life is soooo much different now. If Homer had known the possibilities we know now would he had said the same thing? Is war really more fun than the thought of exploring the universe? If every government stopped making bombs and put all their brains and money together for space exploration imagine how far we could get in even our puny lifetimes!

The possibilities are endless, yet we are stuck here fighting on this same old rock, over the same old shit. I for one am bored with it.

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Mushmonkey said:
When you reduce everything we do to the utmost, you realize that we're doing the same things today that we were doing thousands of years ago. The scale may be larger, but the idea behind it is the same. Sleep, love, sing, dance, fight.

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Prosgeopax said:

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Mushmonkey said:
When you reduce everything we do to the utmost, you realize that we're doing the same things today that we were doing thousands of years ago.  The scale may be larger, but the idea behind it is the same.  Sleep, love, sing, dance, fight.

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Psst, it's 2005.  Are you familiar with computer programming, genetic engineering, flight, automobiles, cable television, space travel, etc?  The world has changed QUITE A BIT in the last few thousand years.

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What he said 

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Sycronica said:
This is true. But my original point was "IF" homer had known the possibilities we know now, based on current technologies and human capabilities...would he had said the same thing? Even remotely the same thing? No, he would have been a talk show host or something =p

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Prosgeopax said:
Psst, it's 2005. Are you familiar with computer programming, genetic engineering, flight, automobiles, cable television, space travel, etc? The world has changed QUITE A BIT in the last few thousand years.

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Mushmonkey said:
The scale may be larger, but the idea behind it is the same. Sleep, love, sing, dance, fight.

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Ravus said:
The survival of society isn't a logical reason?

If we didn't have the War on Drugs we'd have a nation of drug addicts, all constantly zoned out on cheap, high quality drugs. The government knows what it's doing, trust me.

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LSDempire said:
If we do not end the war on drugs in a peaceful way their will be a world war 3.

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Ravus said:
The survival of society isn't a logical reason?

If we didn't have the War on Drugs we'd have a nation of drug addicts, all constantly zoned out on cheap, high quality drugs. The government knows what it's doing, trust me.

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looner2 said:

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LSDempire said:
If we do not end the war on drugs in a peaceful way their will be a world war 3.

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Don't think so. No one really cares about the drug war enough to change their vote, let alone go to war for.

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In the year 2000, drug abuse cost American society an estimated $160 billion. More important were the concrete losses that are imperfectly symbolized by those billions of dollars?the destruction of lives, the damage of addiction, fatalities from car accidents, illness, and lost opportunities and dreams.
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Legalization would result in skyrocketing costs that would be paid by American taxpayers and consumers. Legalization would significantly increase drug use and addiction?and all the social costs that go with it. With the removal of the social and legal sanctions against drugs, many experts estimate the user population would at least double. For example, a 1994 article in the New England Journal of Medicine stated that it was probable, that if cocaine were legalized, the number of cocaine addicts in America would increase from 2 million to at least 20 million.
#

Federal Research & Development for Treatment & Prevention: Prevention=39%, Treatment=58%, Law Enforcement=3%Drug abuse drives some of America?s most costly social problems?including domestic violence, child abuse, chronic mental illness, the spread of AIDS, and homelessness. Drug treatment costs, hospitalization for long-term drug-related disease, and treatment of the consequences of family violence burden our already strapped health care system. In 2000, there were more than 600,000 hospital emergency department drug episodes in the United States. Health care costs for drug abuse alone were about $15 billion.
#

Drug abuse among the homeless has been conservatively estimated at better than 50 percent. Chronic mental illness is inextricably linked with drug abuse. In Philadelphia, nearly half of the VA?s mental patients abused drugs. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has estimated that 36 percent of new HIV cases are directly or indirectly linked to injecting drug users.
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In 1998, Americans spent $67 billion for illegal drugs, a sum of money greater than the amount spent that year to finance public higher education in the United States. If the money spent on illegal drugs were devoted instead to public higher education, for example, public colleges would have the financial ability to accommodate twice as many students as they already do.
#

In addition, legalization?and the increased addiction it would spawn?would result in lost workforce productivity?and the unpredictable damage that it would cause to the American economy. The latest drug use surveys show that about 75% of adults who reported current illicit drug use?which means they?ve used drugs once in the past month?are employed, either full or parttime. In 2000, productivity losses due to drug abuse cost the economy $110 billion. Drug use by workers leads not only to more unexcused absences and higher turnover, but also presents an enormous safety problem in the workplace. Studies have confirmed what common sense dictates: Employees who abuse drugs are five times more likely than other workers to injure themselves or coworkers and they cause 40% of all industrial fatalities. They were more likely to have worked for three or more employers and to have voluntarily left an employer in the past year.
#

Legalization would also result in a huge increase in the number of traffic accidents and fatalities. Drugs are already responsible for a significant number of accidents. Marijuana, for example, impairs the ability of drivers to maintain concentration and show good judgment. A study by the National Institute on Drug Abuse surveyed 6,000 teenage drivers. It studied those who drove more than six times a month after using marijuana. The study found that they were about twoand-a-half times more likely to be involved in a traffic accident than those who didn?t smoke before driving.

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Ravus said:

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#

In the year 2000, drug abuse cost American society an estimated $160 billion. More important were the concrete losses that are imperfectly symbolized by those billions of dollars?the destruction of lives, the damage of addiction, fatalities from car accidents, illness, and lost opportunities and dreams.
#

Legalization would result in skyrocketing costs that would be paid by American taxpayers and consumers. Legalization would significantly increase drug use and addiction?and all the social costs that go with it. With the removal of the social and legal sanctions against drugs, many experts estimate the user population would at least double. For example, a 1994 article in the New England Journal of Medicine stated that it was probable, that if cocaine were legalized, the number of cocaine addicts in America would increase from 2 million to at least 20 million.
#

Federal Research & Development for Treatment & Prevention: Prevention=39%, Treatment=58%, Law Enforcement=3%Drug abuse drives some of America?s most costly social problems?including domestic violence, child abuse, chronic mental illness, the spread of AIDS, and homelessness. Drug treatment costs, hospitalization for long-term drug-related disease, and treatment of the consequences of family violence burden our already strapped health care system. In 2000, there were more than 600,000 hospital emergency department drug episodes in the United States. Health care costs for drug abuse alone were about $15 billion.
#

Drug abuse among the homeless has been conservatively estimated at better than 50 percent. Chronic mental illness is inextricably linked with drug abuse. In Philadelphia, nearly half of the VA?s mental patients abused drugs. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has estimated that 36 percent of new HIV cases are directly or indirectly linked to injecting drug users.
#

In 1998, Americans spent $67 billion for illegal drugs, a sum of money greater than the amount spent that year to finance public higher education in the United States. If the money spent on illegal drugs were devoted instead to public higher education, for example, public colleges would have the financial ability to accommodate twice as many students as they already do.
#

In addition, legalization?and the increased addiction it would spawn?would result in lost workforce productivity?and the unpredictable damage that it would cause to the American economy. The latest drug use surveys show that about 75% of adults who reported current illicit drug use?which means they?ve used drugs once in the past month?are employed, either full or parttime. In 2000, productivity losses due to drug abuse cost the economy $110 billion. Drug use by workers leads not only to more unexcused absences and higher turnover, but also presents an enormous safety problem in the workplace. Studies have confirmed what common sense dictates: Employees who abuse drugs are five times more likely than other workers to injure themselves or coworkers and they cause 40% of all industrial fatalities. They were more likely to have worked for three or more employers and to have voluntarily left an employer in the past year.
#

Legalization would also result in a huge increase in the number of traffic accidents and fatalities. Drugs are already responsible for a significant number of accidents. Marijuana, for example, impairs the ability of drivers to maintain concentration and show good judgment. A study by the National Institute on Drug Abuse surveyed 6,000 teenage drivers. It studied those who drove more than six times a month after using marijuana. The study found that they were about twoand-a-half times more likely to be involved in a traffic accident than those who didn?t smoke before driving.

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http://ww w.usdoj.g ov/dea/demand/speakout/05so.htm

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Prosgeopax said:
The arguments against re-legalization from the DOJ are purely specious, not supported by experiences with different approaches in other countries (try the Netherlands). Why is it that the U.S. experience with prohibition is given so little weight in anti re-legalization propaganda?

Do not discount the fact that there is an entire industry dependent upon drugs remaining illegal and well funded lobbying from those dependent upon it. If we stop treating people like chattel belonging to the state, many of those who are associated with depriving them of their freedom would be out of work.

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