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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Do you view violence as an acceptable form of force to impose your will? [Re: z@z.com]
    #4499412 - 08/05/05 12:31 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

z@z.com said:
Quote:

Paradigm said:
Quote:

downforpot said:
Yep, even an ordinary hippie at a protest will go nuts. I've seen this happen, I've seen peace protestors go nuts and attack people when not at protests. Human Nature



I've never been in a fight in my life. I don't resort to violence as a means to solve problems. Am I devoid of human nature?



I was exactly like you until I went to college and saw a guy hit a girl at a party. He made her bleed from her lip and I made him get surgery for his broken nose. Was I wrong to defend that girl? It wasn't self defense as that guy didn't pose the slightest threat to me. Is me defending the rights of another wrong?



Never said it was wrong, only that I'm not a violent person.


--------------------


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OfflineMushmonkey
shiftlesslayabout
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Registered: 09/26/03
Posts: 10,855
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Re: Do you view violence as an acceptable form of force to impose your will? [Re: Sycronica]
    #4520534 - 08/11/05 01:40 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Sycronica said:
Quote:

looner2 said:
Quote:

Sycronica said:
Organized violence is the bane of humankind and the worst sin by far. Only mindless, warmongering barbarians hunger for it. Anyone with half an ounce of sense can see you can achieve much more for the betterment of all by working together than destroying each other. Sadly this is lost on alot of people.





Only the cowardly and weak repress their instinct for war.

"Men grow tired of sleep, love, singing, and dancing, sooner than of war."

--Homer




When Homer lived sleep, love, singing, dancing and war was about all there was to human existance. Life is soooo much different now. If Homer had known the possibilities we know now would he had said the same thing? Is war really more fun than the thought of exploring the universe? If every government stopped making bombs and put all their brains and money together for space exploration imagine how far we could get in even our puny lifetimes!

The possibilities are endless, yet we are stuck here fighting on this same old rock, over the same old shit. I for one am bored with it.




Are you sure? Do you really believe that there is anything new, anything more than sleep, love, singing, dancing and war today? What is it?

No, we still have sleep, love, singing, dancing and war. The tune's the same, it's just picked up a flashy sleek plastic sound.
When you reduce everything we do to the utmost, you realize that we're doing the same things today that we were doing thousands of years ago. The scale may be larger, but the idea behind it is the same. Sleep, love, sing, dance, fight.


--------------------
i finally got around to making a sig
revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might
grar.


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OfflineProsgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1,258
Loc: Appearing at a mall near ...
Last seen: 15 years, 11 months
Re: Do you view violence as an acceptable form of force to impose your will? [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #4520601 - 08/11/05 01:57 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Mushmonkey said:
When you reduce everything we do to the utmost, you realize that we're doing the same things today that we were doing thousands of years ago. The scale may be larger, but the idea behind it is the same. Sleep, love, sing, dance, fight.



Psst, it's 2005. Are you familiar with computer programming, genetic engineering, flight, automobiles, cable television, space travel, etc? The world has changed QUITE A BIT in the last few thousand years.


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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OfflineSycronica
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Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 376
Loc: Inside my head
Last seen: 16 years, 2 months
Re: Do you view violence as an acceptable form of force to impose your will? [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4521996 - 08/11/05 02:42 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Prosgeopax said:
Quote:

Mushmonkey said:
When you reduce everything we do to the utmost, you realize that we're doing the same things today that we were doing thousands of years ago.  The scale may be larger, but the idea behind it is the same.  Sleep, love, sing, dance, fight.



Psst, it's 2005.  Are you familiar with computer programming, genetic engineering, flight, automobiles, cable television, space travel, etc?  The world has changed QUITE A BIT in the last few thousand years.




What he said  :thumbup:


--------------------
Think for yourself. Question authority.

Forgiveness is the ultimate sacrifice.

You can fool some people sometimes, but you can't fool all the people all the time.


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InvisibleRavus
Not an EggshellWalker
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Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
Re: Do you view violence as an acceptable form of force to impose your will? [Re: Sycronica]
    #4522061 - 08/11/05 02:58 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Mushmonkey also said "When you reduce things to the utmost". No one's denying the world's changed, but if you delve down beneath the cell phones and the SUVs and the business suits, we're still the same humans we've always been. We still sleep when we're tired, eat when we're hungry, fight when we're threatened and dance when we're drunk.

Technology may have changed, but human nature hasn't.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineSycronica
Seeker
Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 376
Loc: Inside my head
Last seen: 16 years, 2 months
Re: Do you view violence as an acceptable form of force to impose your will? [Re: Ravus]
    #4522319 - 08/11/05 04:03 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

This is true. But my original point was "IF" homer had known the possibilities we know now, based on current technologies and human capabilities...would he had said the same thing? Even remotely the same thing? No, he would have been a talk show host or something =p


--------------------
Think for yourself. Question authority.

Forgiveness is the ultimate sacrifice.

You can fool some people sometimes, but you can't fool all the people all the time.


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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: Do you view violence as an acceptable form of force to impose your will? [Re: Sycronica]
    #4522398 - 08/11/05 04:25 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Sycronica said:
This is true. But my original point was "IF" homer had known the possibilities we know now, based on current technologies and human capabilities...would he had said the same thing? Even remotely the same thing? No, he would have been a talk show host or something =p




Amazing insight!


--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth



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OfflineMushmonkey
shiftlesslayabout
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Registered: 09/26/03
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Re: Do you view violence as an acceptable form of force to impose your will? [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4524467 - 08/12/05 01:16 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Prosgeopax said:
Psst, it's 2005. Are you familiar with computer programming, genetic engineering, flight, automobiles, cable television, space travel, etc? The world has changed QUITE A BIT in the last few thousand years.




.. so?

Everything you mentioned and everything you didn't mention are simply the latest gizmos and frontiers. Every generation of humanity has had its own latest gizmos and frontiers.
We still communicate with other people. We still buy and sell things to each other. We still try and have fun. We still get angry and fight. We still sleep. We still love. What's so new?

The quote could have easily been made today, worded the same way, and still be true. Sure I've got a car, sure, I can catch a plane and be halfway across the world tomorrow.. what's the big deal? It's just traveling. Faster than walking certainly, but it's not NEW. It's just FASTER travel.


--------------------
i finally got around to making a sig
revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might
grar.


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OfflineProsgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1,258
Loc: Appearing at a mall near ...
Last seen: 15 years, 11 months
Re: Do you view violence as an acceptable form of force to impose your will? [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #4524564 - 08/12/05 01:35 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Sorry, you said...
Quote:

Mushmonkey said:
The scale may be larger, but the idea behind it is the same. Sleep, love, sing, dance, fight.



I was responding to your words as written. You did not say travel nor communicate, nor did you say create complex instructions to be carried out by silicon chips (which IS new).


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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OfflineLSDempire
LibertarianEnforcer
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Registered: 04/23/05
Posts: 581
Last seen: 15 years, 11 months
Re: Do you view violence as an acceptable form of force to impose your will? [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #4524913 - 08/12/05 02:26 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

The war on drugs is the dumbest war of the 21st century. There is no logical reason to lock people up for harming their own bodies. There is no logical reason to spray herbicide on peoples crops, because you suspect the plant could be used to produce narcotics. Their is no excuse for the government to intrude on, let alone steal private property in the name of drug enforcement. If we do not end the war on drugs in a peaceful way their will be a world war 3.


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InvisibleRavus
Not an EggshellWalker
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Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
Re: Do you view violence as an acceptable form of force to impose your will? [Re: LSDempire]
    #4525119 - 08/12/05 03:09 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

The survival of society isn't a logical reason?

If we didn't have the War on Drugs we'd have a nation of drug addicts, all constantly zoned out on cheap, high quality drugs. The government knows what it's doing, trust me.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineSycronica
Seeker
Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 376
Loc: Inside my head
Last seen: 16 years, 2 months
Re: Do you view violence as an acceptable form of force to impose your will? [Re: Ravus]
    #4525142 - 08/12/05 03:19 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
The survival of society isn't a logical reason?

If we didn't have the War on Drugs we'd have a nation of drug addicts, all constantly zoned out on cheap, high quality drugs. The government knows what it's doing, trust me.




:rofl2:


--------------------
Think for yourself. Question authority.

Forgiveness is the ultimate sacrifice.

You can fool some people sometimes, but you can't fool all the people all the time.


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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: Do you view violence as an acceptable form of force to impose your will? [Re: LSDempire]
    #4525273 - 08/12/05 04:15 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

LSDempire said:
If we do not end the war on drugs in a peaceful way their will be a world war 3.




Don't think so. No one really cares about the drug war enough to change their vote, let alone go to war for.


--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth



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OfflineLSDempire
LibertarianEnforcer
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Registered: 04/23/05
Posts: 581
Last seen: 15 years, 11 months
Re: Do you view violence as an acceptable form of force to impose your will? [Re: Ravus]
    #4527099 - 08/12/05 06:09 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
The survival of society isn't a logical reason?

If we didn't have the War on Drugs we'd have a nation of drug addicts, all constantly zoned out on cheap, high quality drugs. The government knows what it's doing, trust me.




You already know I do not trust you, so you will have to back up your claims with some facts.


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OfflineLSDempire
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Registered: 04/23/05
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Last seen: 15 years, 11 months
Re: Do you view violence as an acceptable form of force to impose your will? [Re: looner2]
    #4527108 - 08/12/05 06:10 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

looner2 said:
Quote:

LSDempire said:
If we do not end the war on drugs in a peaceful way their will be a world war 3.




Don't think so. No one really cares about the drug war enough to change their vote, let alone go to war for.




I vote, but the Libertarian Party cant cheat like the RP and DP, because we dont own any voting machines.


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InvisibleRavus
Not an EggshellWalker
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Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
Re: Do you view violence as an acceptable form of force to impose your will? [Re: LSDempire]
    #4527178 - 08/12/05 06:26 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

#

In the year 2000, drug abuse cost American society an estimated $160 billion. More important were the concrete losses that are imperfectly symbolized by those billions of dollars?the destruction of lives, the damage of addiction, fatalities from car accidents, illness, and lost opportunities and dreams.
#

Legalization would result in skyrocketing costs that would be paid by American taxpayers and consumers. Legalization would significantly increase drug use and addiction?and all the social costs that go with it. With the removal of the social and legal sanctions against drugs, many experts estimate the user population would at least double. For example, a 1994 article in the New England Journal of Medicine stated that it was probable, that if cocaine were legalized, the number of cocaine addicts in America would increase from 2 million to at least 20 million.
#

Federal Research & Development for Treatment & Prevention: Prevention=39%, Treatment=58%, Law Enforcement=3%Drug abuse drives some of America?s most costly social problems?including domestic violence, child abuse, chronic mental illness, the spread of AIDS, and homelessness. Drug treatment costs, hospitalization for long-term drug-related disease, and treatment of the consequences of family violence burden our already strapped health care system. In 2000, there were more than 600,000 hospital emergency department drug episodes in the United States. Health care costs for drug abuse alone were about $15 billion.
#

Drug abuse among the homeless has been conservatively estimated at better than 50 percent. Chronic mental illness is inextricably linked with drug abuse. In Philadelphia, nearly half of the VA?s mental patients abused drugs. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has estimated that 36 percent of new HIV cases are directly or indirectly linked to injecting drug users.
#

In 1998, Americans spent $67 billion for illegal drugs, a sum of money greater than the amount spent that year to finance public higher education in the United States. If the money spent on illegal drugs were devoted instead to public higher education, for example, public colleges would have the financial ability to accommodate twice as many students as they already do.
#

In addition, legalization?and the increased addiction it would spawn?would result in lost workforce productivity?and the unpredictable damage that it would cause to the American economy. The latest drug use surveys show that about 75% of adults who reported current illicit drug use?which means they?ve used drugs once in the past month?are employed, either full or parttime. In 2000, productivity losses due to drug abuse cost the economy $110 billion. Drug use by workers leads not only to more unexcused absences and higher turnover, but also presents an enormous safety problem in the workplace. Studies have confirmed what common sense dictates: Employees who abuse drugs are five times more likely than other workers to injure themselves or coworkers and they cause 40% of all industrial fatalities. They were more likely to have worked for three or more employers and to have voluntarily left an employer in the past year.
#

Legalization would also result in a huge increase in the number of traffic accidents and fatalities. Drugs are already responsible for a significant number of accidents. Marijuana, for example, impairs the ability of drivers to maintain concentration and show good judgment. A study by the National Institute on Drug Abuse surveyed 6,000 teenage drivers. It studied those who drove more than six times a month after using marijuana. The study found that they were about twoand-a-half times more likely to be involved in a traffic accident than those who didn?t smoke before driving.




http://ww w.usdoj.g ov/dea/demand/speakout/05so.htm


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineLSDempire
LibertarianEnforcer
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/23/05
Posts: 581
Last seen: 15 years, 11 months
Re: Do you view violence as an acceptable form of force to impose your will? [Re: Ravus]
    #4527209 - 08/12/05 06:36 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
Quote:

#

In the year 2000, drug abuse cost American society an estimated $160 billion. More important were the concrete losses that are imperfectly symbolized by those billions of dollars?the destruction of lives, the damage of addiction, fatalities from car accidents, illness, and lost opportunities and dreams.
#

Legalization would result in skyrocketing costs that would be paid by American taxpayers and consumers. Legalization would significantly increase drug use and addiction?and all the social costs that go with it. With the removal of the social and legal sanctions against drugs, many experts estimate the user population would at least double. For example, a 1994 article in the New England Journal of Medicine stated that it was probable, that if cocaine were legalized, the number of cocaine addicts in America would increase from 2 million to at least 20 million.
#

Federal Research & Development for Treatment & Prevention: Prevention=39%, Treatment=58%, Law Enforcement=3%Drug abuse drives some of America?s most costly social problems?including domestic violence, child abuse, chronic mental illness, the spread of AIDS, and homelessness. Drug treatment costs, hospitalization for long-term drug-related disease, and treatment of the consequences of family violence burden our already strapped health care system. In 2000, there were more than 600,000 hospital emergency department drug episodes in the United States. Health care costs for drug abuse alone were about $15 billion.
#

Drug abuse among the homeless has been conservatively estimated at better than 50 percent. Chronic mental illness is inextricably linked with drug abuse. In Philadelphia, nearly half of the VA?s mental patients abused drugs. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has estimated that 36 percent of new HIV cases are directly or indirectly linked to injecting drug users.
#

In 1998, Americans spent $67 billion for illegal drugs, a sum of money greater than the amount spent that year to finance public higher education in the United States. If the money spent on illegal drugs were devoted instead to public higher education, for example, public colleges would have the financial ability to accommodate twice as many students as they already do.
#

In addition, legalization?and the increased addiction it would spawn?would result in lost workforce productivity?and the unpredictable damage that it would cause to the American economy. The latest drug use surveys show that about 75% of adults who reported current illicit drug use?which means they?ve used drugs once in the past month?are employed, either full or parttime. In 2000, productivity losses due to drug abuse cost the economy $110 billion. Drug use by workers leads not only to more unexcused absences and higher turnover, but also presents an enormous safety problem in the workplace. Studies have confirmed what common sense dictates: Employees who abuse drugs are five times more likely than other workers to injure themselves or coworkers and they cause 40% of all industrial fatalities. They were more likely to have worked for three or more employers and to have voluntarily left an employer in the past year.
#

Legalization would also result in a huge increase in the number of traffic accidents and fatalities. Drugs are already responsible for a significant number of accidents. Marijuana, for example, impairs the ability of drivers to maintain concentration and show good judgment. A study by the National Institute on Drug Abuse surveyed 6,000 teenage drivers. It studied those who drove more than six times a month after using marijuana. The study found that they were about twoand-a-half times more likely to be involved in a traffic accident than those who didn?t smoke before driving.




http://ww w.usdoj.g ov/dea/demand/speakout/05so.htm




Is this damage not being done DURING THE WAR ON DRUGS? Why don't you stop and think, its time to try something new. We could even save some of these lives, rather than making it worse for the victims and their families by letting the government violate their bodies and property in every way posible.


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OfflineProsgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1,258
Loc: Appearing at a mall near ...
Last seen: 15 years, 11 months
Re: Do you view violence as an acceptable form of force to impose your will? [Re: Ravus]
    #4527258 - 08/12/05 06:47 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

The arguments against re-legalization from the DOJ are purely specious, not supported by experiences with different approaches in other countries (try the Netherlands). Why is it that the U.S. experience with prohibition is given so little weight in anti re-legalization propaganda?

Do not discount the fact that there is an entire industry dependent upon drugs remaining illegal and well funded lobbying from those dependent upon it. If we stop treating people like chattel belonging to the state, many of those who are associated with depriving them of their freedom would be out of work.


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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OfflineLSDempire
LibertarianEnforcer
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/23/05
Posts: 581
Last seen: 15 years, 11 months
Re: Do you view violence as an acceptable form of force to impose your will? [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4527453 - 08/12/05 07:42 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Prosgeopax said:
The arguments against re-legalization from the DOJ are purely specious, not supported by experiences with different approaches in other countries (try the Netherlands). Why is it that the U.S. experience with prohibition is given so little weight in anti re-legalization propaganda?

Do not discount the fact that there is an entire industry dependent upon drugs remaining illegal and well funded lobbying from those dependent upon it. If we stop treating people like chattel belonging to the state, many of those who are associated with depriving them of their freedom would be out of work.




Yes, welcome to the world of Ravus, as for the industry that supports the war on drugs, they must be punished.


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