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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: Do you view violence as an acceptable form of force to impose your will? [Re: unbeliever]
    #4488800 - 08/03/05 09:29 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

unbeliever said:
I like to "people watch" on threads like these where all the testosterone laden schmucks with small penises emerge to flex their "manly" urges to kill everything. Often, a comparison of gun collections follows. I find it all rather amusing and pathetic.





I feel the same way, but I get a kick out of those andogenous feely type of people who bury their testosterone in the ground and place a tulip in its place. Their love bombs of compassion can level entire cities!


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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: Do you view violence as an acceptable form of force to impose your will? [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4489513 - 08/03/05 01:47 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Prosgeopax said:
War is an easy option for those unable to conduct themselves as fully human, as rational beings.




Totally unfounded. How is rational not equated with war? I say the opposite, only the rational take part in war. I have a reason too, because they view humanity as something that is very tied to its nature. Whether its nature be irrational or rational, the consequence is war. As it has been for thousands of years.

Quote:

Prosgeopax said:
War only happens when one or both parties revert to a pre-sapient thought pattern, usually it is both parties - war requires fools for it to begin.




What the hell is pre-sapien thought? If humans take part in war, then there is nothing pre-sapien about, it is fully and absolutely human.

Quote:

Prosgeopax said:
War is either engaged in as a LAST RESORT by rational people dealing with irrational people or by a gaggle of idiots, there is no middle ground.




Is self-defense rational? If it is, then self-defense can take the part of attacking, defending, and conquering, even if the threat is not so clear. Defending yourself fully by any means necessary therefore will sometimes result in the first resort!

Quote:

Prosgeopax said:War is TRIBAL, the most blatant expression of the collectivist mindset, men reduce themselves to herd animals, blindly dieing for their leader, their state or their god. Forget all the popular bashing of selfish actions, a world of individualists would be one without war.




I knew it, there can't be a discussion of violence without the vilification of those who participate it in, even if the person previously acknowledges that it must sometimes be done!

A warrior isn't blindly dieing for anyone if they are fighting for their leader, state, or god, they are in fact, dying for something.


Is it jealousy for those who put their existence on the line for something greater themselves that so frustrates the weak? Those brave enough to test their honor and courage in the face of death deserve the praise we give them. As long as violence is needed, as long as human nature is the acting force of the world, then these noble people are needed for the existence of the weak and cowardly who so disdain them. The irony...


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InvisibleRavus
Not an EggshellWalker
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Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
Re: Do you view violence as an acceptable form of force to impose your will? [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4489571 - 08/03/05 01:57 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Reason is what sets men apart from the other animals. War is an easy option for those unable to conduct themselves as fully human, as rational beings.




War is fully human. Other animals attack each other, but none have real wars. We are the only known organism to have war, which makes war a fully rational human activity as a way to expand power, to distinguish threats.

We are no longer considered normal animals. When humans were commonly considered animals, they didn't have fire or weapons or religion. It is only after we developed intelligence and technology (even the most primitive, back to fire and the wheel) did wars begin as a way for human societies to resolve conflicts and threats.

Quote:

War only happens when one or both parties revert to a pre-sapient thought pattern, usually it is both parties




"Pre-sapient" thought? How many "pre-sapient" organisms had war? Evidently war is only a post-sapien (I don't think these are scientific words  :wink:) phenonema.

Quote:

War is either engaged in as a LAST RESORT by rational people dealing with irrational people or by a gaggle of idiots, there is no middle ground.




A "gaggle of idiots" eh? I don't think a "gaggle of idiots" could use highly advanced weaponry and strategies to dominate another country and set of intelligent humans. War is usually not the last resort, but simply a way to respond to threats to our survival. Even pre-eminent war can be traced to our survival; if we need to have a war to get oil, then launching it even pre-emptively is a way of using human rationale to look ahead in the future and ensure the survival of the humans and the stablility of the society. A "gaggle of idiots" would not do this.

Quote:

Forget all the popular bashing of selfish actions, a world of individualists would be one without war.




And probably one without a stable society and advanced technology either.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineProsgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1,258
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Re: Do you view violence as an acceptable form of force to impose your will? [Re: looner2]
    #4489812 - 08/03/05 02:47 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

looner2 said:
Totally unfounded. How is rational not equated with war?



Is it rational to kill without question? Is it rational to interact with your fellow human beings in an attempt to destroy each other instead of acting without violence for mutual benefit?

Quote:

What the hell is pre-sapien thought? If humans take part in war, then there is nothing pre-sapien about, it is fully and absolutely human.



You don't understand what I stated and yet you take issue with it? Here's a hint, go to google and search with the following, "sapient definition" (sans quotes).

Quote:

Is self-defense rational?



Yes.

Quote:

If it is, then self-defense can take the part of attacking, defending, and conquering, even if the threat is not so clear.



So basically, self-defense is whatever you say it is. With no clear threat, no danger, you can attack anyone at anytime and call it self defense. This is called 'rationalization.'

Quote:

I knew it, there can't be a discussion of violence without the vilification of those who participate it in, even if the person previously acknowledges that it must sometimes be done!



Like it or not, war is tribalism writ large. I acknowledge that war is sometimes necessary from a perspective of defense and have never said otherwise. I am also mature enough to recognize that the roots of war lie in irrational behavior and group think.

Quote:

A warrior isn't blindly dieing for anyone if they are fighting for their leader, state, or god, they are in fact, dying for something.



Sorry to burst your bubble, modern warfare requires blindly carrying out orders. I am not referring to battle field tactics or battlefield strategy. If everyone were to question the motivations of their leaders and the concepts of god and state, and the morality of their actions, there would be a hell of a lot less warfare or none at all.

Quote:

Is it jealousy for those who put their existence on the line for something greater themselves that so frustrates the weak?



Are you saying that those who oppose going to war willy nilly are somehow weak and jealous of the automatons who serve the goals of death and misery without question? If so, that is an unfounded opinion.

Quote:

Those brave enough to test their honor and courage in the face of death deserve the praise we give them.



There is nothing honorable about killing your fellow human beings without question. There is nothing brave about killing without necessity. I'm curious, do you praise the bravery of gang bangers for their drive-by shootings? Is there honor in killing someone from another gang?

Are you familiar with Sun Tzu? He has some rational words on the subject of war:

"To win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill."

"To fight and conquer in all our battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting."

"There is no instance of a nation benefiting from prolonged warfare."


--------
More rational thoughts:

"When one by force subdues men, they do not submit to him in their heart. They submit because their strength is not adequate to resist. When one subdues men by virtue in their heart's core, they are pleased and submit sincerely."
- Mencius (372-289 BC)

"The proper objective of war is not military victory but a politically advantageous peace."
- attributed to Maj.-Gen J.F.C. Fuller


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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Offlineunbeliever
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Re: Do you view violence as an acceptable form of force to impose your will? [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4489908 - 08/03/05 03:17 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Violence is never right. It is, however, sometimes necessary. There is an important distinction to be made there. Pedantic, philosophical nonsense? Maybe for some. Aspiring to the highest principles, even if you do not meet them, is far better than the apathetic alternative. That's just my opinion.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Do you view violence as an acceptable form of force to impose your will? [Re: unbeliever]
    #4489920 - 08/03/05 03:22 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Violence is never right.




Never right to who? If I use violence to raise myself to power and create order in an otherwise chaotic world, how is that not right? I increase the chances of my own survival and the survival of those who the power supports. The only people it's not right to are the victims, but victims are necessary for almost any form of survival. A larger tree may starve the smaller surrounding trees for sunlight until they die, a wolf may tear the throat of a rabbit out, but these actions help the chances of the organism's survival and are therefore right for some, not least of all evolution.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Offlineunbeliever
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Re: Do you view violence as an acceptable form of force to impose your will? [Re: Ravus]
    #4490079 - 08/03/05 03:54 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
Quote:

Violence is never right.




Never right to who? If I use violence to raise myself to power and create order in an otherwise chaotic world, how is that not right? I increase the chances of my own survival and the survival of those who the power supports. The only people it's not right to are the victims, but victims are necessary for almost any form of survival. A larger tree may starve the smaller surrounding trees for sunlight until they die, a wolf may tear the throat of a rabbit out, but these actions help the chances of the organism's survival and are therefore right for some, not least of all evolution.




Never right to me. That's just my opinion. Again I refer to the difference between right and necessary. One of the biggest burdens placed on us is deciding when violence has finally become necessary while still understanding it is never right.

Again, that's just my own opinion. I recommend to everyone that they form their own opinions. If they happen to mesh with other people that's just a bonus.


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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
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Re: Do you view violence as an acceptable form of force to impose your will? [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4490283 - 08/03/05 04:33 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Prosgeopax said:
Is it rational to kill without question? Is it rational to interact with your fellow human beings in an attempt to destroy each other instead of acting without violence for mutual benefit?




You failed to to answer my question about what rationality has to do with war. We are dancing around rationality as something magic word that we all need to place in context with war. Humans are rational and irrational and their actions are influenced by both.

I've said this many times before in countless threads, you cannot boil down war to just wondering human beings on earth that have a decision to kill eachother or help eachother. It is 1 million times more complicated than that, and I refuse to stoop to that level of abstractness.

Quote:

Prosgeopax said:
So basically, self-defense is whatever you say it is. With no clear threat, no danger, you can attack anyone at anytime and call it self defense. This is called 'rationalization.'




No, self defense is exactly what it is, self-defense. It takes many forms. Sometimes attacking is ensuring the safety of your nation and sometimes it is defending. The game is ruthless and a nation must look behind waiting to be punched in the face before a justification is warranted. Now, it may seem like I am getting off track here, but those who agree that self-defense is "OK" must also realize the many facets of self-defense in the overall scope of war and peace. By becoming the most powerful through violence is sometimes the best strategy for "self-defense".

Quote:

Prosgeopax said:
Like it or not, war is tribalism writ large. I acknowledge that war is sometimes necessary from a perspective of defense and have never said otherwise. I am also mature enough to recognize that the roots of war lie in irrational behavior and group think.




Whatever. It is irrational, and group think, but you still concede it is necessary and have the audacity to bash those who partake in it. Very rational indeed.


Quote:

Prosgeopax said:
If everyone were to question the motivations of their leaders and the concepts of god and state, and the morality of their actions, there would be a hell of a lot less warfare or none at all.




So, in a perfect world there would be no war? I am not the one in the bubble.


Quote:

Prosgeopax said:Are you saying that those who oppose going to war willy nilly are somehow weak and jealous of the automatons who serve the goals of death and misery without question? If so, that is an unfounded opinion.




More doublespeek. You say war is necessary, but then hate those who rise to the job. Typical. No matter what realities are front of the peaceniks face it always boils down to some highfalutin language about death, misery, and the brainwashed.

Quote:

Prosgeopax said:There is nothing honorable about killing your fellow human beings without question. There is nothing brave about killing without necessity. I'm curious, do you praise the bravery of gang bangers for their drive-by shootings? Is there honor in killing someone from another gang?




The world is not made up of individuals capable of the thoughts and philosophy that we are discussing right now. Their needs to be a hierarchy of power to drive those to do what they are trained to do, and that is to kill. A power structure is needed so at the top the decisions are made, and at the bottom the strategy is implemented. The enemy will be doing the same, and to make an army of philosophers is certain death.

Quote:

Prosgeopax said:Are you familiar with Sun Tzu? He has some rational words on the subject of war:




All of those quotes are made with knowledge that violence is a tool needed and implemented in the world. Sun Tzu was a philosopher on military strategy and each of those quotes is in reference to that.


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InvisibleLos_Pepes
Stranger

Registered: 06/26/05
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Re: Do you view violence as an acceptable form of force to impose your will? [Re: looner2]
    #4490757 - 08/03/05 06:18 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

"Modern Liberals, With Some Exceptions, Are Fascists. They Preach Peace At The Expense Of Liberty, Diversity At The Expense Of Common Sense, Equality At The Expense Of Fairness And Choice At The Expense Of Life. They Are The First To Speak About Rights, Yet They Seek To Deny You Yours If You Disagree With Them. They Vociferate The Importance Of Free Speech, Yet Do Everything In Their Power To Stifle Yours. They Demonize The Very System Which Allows Them The Freedom To Criticize In The First Place, And They Are The Last People In Line When It Comes To Defending The One Country On Earth That Would Ever Tolerate Their Hypocrisy. They Are Divisive, Immoral And Utterly Incapable Of Understanding Why Everything I Just Wrote Is The Truth." - Edward L. Daley


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OfflineProsgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?

Registered: 01/28/05
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Re: Do you view violence as an acceptable form of force to impose your will? [Re: looner2]
    #4491321 - 08/03/05 08:33 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

looner2 said:
You failed to to answer my question about what rationality has to do with war.



*** Sigh *** There are instance where going to war is the only rational thing to do, because it cannot be avoided and you value either self-government and/or freedom more than control (or destruction) from an outside force. However, the vast majority of wars CAN be avoided, but most people seem to rush headlong into them without due consideration to alternatives. We can trace the roots to wars through a series of missteps in our dealings with others. When we learn from the mistakes of the past, appeal to our potential enemies self-interest and how it can benefit them to work with us we have a chance for greater benefit. If such an avenue proves fruitless and war cannot be avoided, that is a situation we should also be prepared to deal with. For instance, looking at history tells us that obstacles to free trade between peoples often leads to increased animosity between their respective governments and often ends up in shooting matches. However, when rulers realize that the wealth of their respective nations are dependent upon free trade, they can rationally come to the conclusion that war is the least profitable end game and take steps that are in both parties' self interest.

Quote:

By becoming the most powerful through violence is sometimes the best strategy for "self-defense".



It seems you fail to grasp the difference between self-defense and initiating violence because you are too afraid and/or intellectually slothful to find other ways of dealing with situations. It is the insecure man who frequently gets in fights over trifling matters, or takes his country to war to prove a point.

Quote:

but you still concede it is necessary and have the audacity to bash those who partake in it.



Try a little less emoting and a little more thinking, PLEASE. I take issue with those who look to war as the first and best solution, who blindly follow their nation/leader/religion to war without question. Is it so hard for you to grasp?

Quote:

So, in a perfect world there would be no war? I am not the one in the bubble.



That I can understand the causes of war and point them out does not constitute being in a bubble, it indicates awareness.

Quote:

You say war is necessary, but then hate those who rise to the job.



I indicated that there are times when war is necessary. Most wars are not. I never indicated that I hate those who rise to the job. You are dishonest.

Quote:

All of those quotes are made with knowledge that violence is a tool needed and implemented in the world. Sun Tzu was a philosopher on military strategy and each of those quotes is in reference to that.



No kidding? Why do you think I cited them? I have read Sun Tzu, Clausewitz, Van Creveld, David Hackworth and William S. Lind on the subject of warfare. You have obviously missed the point of the quotes I offered, sad. Having a understanding of the nature of warfare does not preclude one from wanting to avoid it when it is unnecessary, just as being proficient in a martial art does not mean that you should take on all challengers even when you can simply walk away with no one being hurt. Capice?


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: Do you view violence as an acceptable form of force to impose your will? [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4491920 - 08/03/05 10:55 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Prosgeopax said:
However, the vast majority of wars CAN be avoided, but most people seem to rush headlong into them without due consideration to alternatives.




They can be avoided by whom? If you are speaking in the strict strategy sense that sometimes its best not to go to war, then of course no one is going to disagree with you. Who would? What kind of point is it in the first place? It is hard to engage in a debate when one says things like this

War is an easy option for those unable to conduct themselves as fully human, as rational beings.

That doesn't sound anything like your previous statement. Let me see if I can follow, war is for those that cannot conduct themselves as humans, but sometimes it is just to go to war. Pick a position, PLEASE!


Quote:

Prosgeopax said:
It seems you fail to grasp the difference between self-defense and initiating violence because you are too afraid and/or intellectually slothful to find other ways of dealing with situations. It is the insecure man who frequently gets in fights over trifling matters, or takes his country to war to prove a point.




Self-defense is acting in a manner that defends your nation. Self-defense should not be inhibited for any reason because it is in the interest of the nation, and therefore the best course to follow. This action can take many forms. What part of that don't you understand?

Quote:

Prosgeopax said:
Try a little less emoting and a little more thinking, PLEASE. I take issue with those who look to war as the first and best solution, who blindly follow their nation/leader/religion to war without question. Is it so hard for you to grasp?




Ditto to the first part.

If someone chooses war as the first and best solution and is wrong, then it is bad strategy. Nothing else. No greater philosophy on violence or war, just plain BAD STRATEGY.

Quote:

Prosgeopax said:
That I can understand the causes of war and point them out does not constitute being in a bubble, it indicates awareness.




No you don't. War at its center is human nature, plain and simple and the myriad of reasons that caused that to action are a seperate study in itself. Wars have been fought for heros, wars have been fought for empires, wars have been fought for societies that glorify war, wars have been fought for freedom, economics, ideologies, god, and finally, nations. At every turn and at each point through history men have not failed the call to arms. Men can't be expected to shift through that mess. Common men will always be common men. Willed by the powerful and able to inflict great harm. That is reality and it is the harsh reality in which we must contend with. Therefore, we need to respect those who take part in war for the good of the nation, because if we don't, there will be men respected on the other side of the world and who are being lead to do harm to us. Sometimes its rational to become an irrational killing machine!

To accept any other reality is not only incorrect, its downright dangerous.


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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: Do you view violence as an acceptable form of force to impose your will? [Re: Anisotropic]
    #4496011 - 08/04/05 06:50 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Anisotropic said:
Only for animals.




We are animals.


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"


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OfflineMrChampignon
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Re: Do you view violence as an acceptable form of force to impose your will? [Re: downforpot]
    #4496530 - 08/04/05 09:25 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Violence is the nature of this universe... 2 plants will fight if there's only one spot under the sun and even a galaxy can be destroyed by a bigger one... it's everywhere around us...


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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: Do you view violence as an acceptable form of force to impose your will? [Re: MrChampignon]
    #4496545 - 08/04/05 09:26 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Yep, even an ordinary hippie at a protest will go nuts. I've seen this happen, I've seen peace protestors go nuts and attack people when not at protests. Human Nature


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Do you view violence as an acceptable form of force to impose your will? [Re: downforpot]
    #4496626 - 08/04/05 09:38 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

downforpot said:
Yep, even an ordinary hippie at a protest will go nuts. I've seen this happen, I've seen peace protestors go nuts and attack people when not at protests. Human Nature



I've never been in a fight in my life. I don't resort to violence as a means to solve problems. Am I devoid of human nature?


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OfflineAnisotropic
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Re: Do you view violence as an acceptable form of force to impose your will? [Re: downforpot]
    #4496784 - 08/04/05 10:07 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

"We are animals."
Well, some of us are just animals.


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OfflineMrChampignon
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Re: Do you view violence as an acceptable form of force to impose your will? [Re: Anisotropic]
    #4496880 - 08/04/05 10:33 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

violence is not only war and fights... If you really know where they come from, buying Nike shoes is almost a form of violence!


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Do you view violence as an acceptable form of force to impose your will? [Re: Silversoul]
    #4497159 - 08/04/05 11:54 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Quote:

downforpot said:
Yep, even an ordinary hippie at a protest will go nuts. I've seen this happen, I've seen peace protestors go nuts and attack people when not at protests. Human Nature



I've never been in a fight in my life. I don't resort to violence as a means to solve problems. Am I devoid of human nature?




No, but the environment you experience has evidently not activated the ancient potential for violence built into you.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Invisiblez@z.com
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Re: Do you view violence as an acceptable form of force to impose your will? [Re: Silversoul]
    #4497909 - 08/05/05 02:05 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Quote:

downforpot said:
Yep, even an ordinary hippie at a protest will go nuts. I've seen this happen, I've seen peace protestors go nuts and attack people when not at protests. Human Nature



I've never been in a fight in my life. I don't resort to violence as a means to solve problems. Am I devoid of human nature?



I was exactly like you until I went to college and saw a guy hit a girl at a party. He made her bleed from her lip and I made him get surgery for his broken nose. Was I wrong to defend that girl? It wasn't self defense as that guy didn't pose the slightest threat to me. Is me defending the rights of another wrong?

Just so you know I abhor violence.


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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleIsaacHunt
Stranger
Registered: 05/27/05
Posts: 176
Re: Do you view violence as an acceptable form of force to impose your will? [Re: z@z.com]
    #4498140 - 08/05/05 02:43 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Did the girl thank you?


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