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InvisibleRavus
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Actions
    #4483019 - 08/01/05 11:41 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Central to the concept of you is the actions that you have performed. For without the actions taken by you (every part of you, not just your conscious mind) you would not exist as you, but rather would continue to exist as that which you were before. The actions of your genetic code to create you began it all, and carried it into the actions of your conscious mind, even to your current state of experiencing your will.

But if our actions create who we are, then the topic of free will is inconsequential. We perceive time in a linear sequence, and the entire macroscopic universe around us moves in a linear sequence. In this sequence our actions stack one upon the other until, like a ladder, we look down and see our history as one straight line. The concept of free will states that if you went back, you could do something differently; but this is impossible, for it would not be you doing the action. The end result would be a different person looking down on their own linear history in a different mind.

Genetics gives us all of our potential, but the actions taken by the organism are what determines the end result. Free will is so abstract that the point of the significance of the actions is often overlooked, yet it only makes sense. You are not your name, or your physical characteristics, for others can share these, but rather you are the sum total of your actions. Free will is an illusion in this light, because if you are the sum total of your actions, then looking back on time, there is nothing else you could have done, otherwise the result would not be you.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Actions [Re: Ravus]
    #4483094 - 08/01/05 11:57 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

There is a flaw in your logic here. Even if time is totally linear, as I think it is, the actions you take are still a result of choices you made. When viewed from the future you see only one linear path, but it could be argued that I chose the direction it took. The fact that time functions in this manner does not negate free will. This seems to be a case of false choice you have presented here. You are saying because we view time backward in a linear fashion that the very fact that it is linear negates free will, but in fact this does not mean that the direction the path took was out of our control.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Actions [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4483138 - 08/02/05 12:06 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

That is not really what I'm saying, but it is indeed a hard concept to explain in words.

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
There is a flaw in your logic here. Even if time is totally linear, as I think it is, the actions you take are still a result of choices you made.




Possible, but think of it this way: If you did not make those choices, would you still be the same person? If indeed you are the sum total of your actions, then by making a different choice, you would be speaking of a different person. For you to be you, you have to have chosen all the actions you did, otherwise you wouldn't be who you are right now.

Quote:

You are saying because we view time backward in a linear fashion that the very fact that it is linear negates free will, but in fact this does not mean that the direction the path took was out of our control.




Again, possible; as of now, it is hard to scientifically verify free will or control, so it is within the realms of our subjective philosophies. But I am not saying that because we view time in a linear fashion free will is negated; I'm saying that because we are the sum total of our actions in a linear universe, for you to be you you'd have to follow the actions you did. If you took another linear path, then you would end up in a different place as a different person, even if you shared the same name and look.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Offlinefalcon
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Re: Actions [Re: Ravus]
    #4483167 - 08/02/05 12:10 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Edited by Learyfan (05/29/05 10:50 PM)?


Edited by falcon (08/02/05 12:11 AM)


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Actions [Re: Ravus]
    #4483184 - 08/02/05 12:13 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

In the end the issue of free will is moot. I don't really know whether there is or isn't free will. I prefer to view myself as having control over my actions. I have found that by examining myself that I can make choices that lead to more pleasant outcomes. Even if this is not free will in action the outcome is still the same, so there is no practical difference.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: Actions [Re: Ravus]
    #4484446 - 08/02/05 08:35 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I agree, somewhat. I agree that free will for the most part means nothing. You are defined by your actions, and this is dictated by past events thus, your flesh is not the product of free will.

But I also believe free will exists in imagination, where the subjective becomes objective. You know, that empty canvas you see when you close your eyes and meditate... the stuff thought is made of -- I think that may be free will. After all, what can you not imagine?

I disagree, with your notions of time being linear. Multiple expirements were done proving time is not linear, but relative. We see many warps and distortions in our reality daily.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Actions [Re: psyka]
    #4484883 - 08/02/05 12:25 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

I disagree, with your notions of time being linear. Multiple expirements were done proving time is not linear, but relative. We see many warps and distortions in our reality daily.




Just because the car accelerates and slows down constantly, does that mean it's not going in a straight line forward? Linear simply means that there's one straight line of time that we follow; I agree with relativity, but it's linear time that is relative in the first place.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Actions [Re: Ravus]
    #4485012 - 08/02/05 01:15 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Not time, not actions are linear...
Sorry...


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
........................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Actions [Re: falcon]
    #4485115 - 08/02/05 01:46 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

falcon said:
Edited by Learyfan (05/29/05 10:50 PM)?




This was a demonstration by Ravus of his computer's ability to disregard linear time.  :grin:


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Actions [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4486158 - 08/02/05 06:09 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
Not time, not actions are linear...
Sorry...




So there is no causality? No before and after? No dates? Evidently you go against my empirical observations.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Actions [Re: Ravus]
    #4489928 - 08/03/05 03:24 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

The way you present time, it is relative on so many conscious facors (causality ? Sometimes humans act casued by future or history...) - cause and effect is only true in strong fixed physical conditions, but our mind still will blur this up :smile:
But even physically time is bound, bond ant bended from and to gravity. So, no matter how you percieve it, it can't be 'linear'.

Actions are not linear by far, if you look at everyones varios individual biography. There are gaps, leaks, jumps, flows, where we try to interpret some causality inside, but what simply condenses in the concept of free will, experience of try and error and such :smile:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
........................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Actions [Re: Ravus]
    #4489976 - 08/03/05 03:34 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I agree to an extent.. actions do create our perceived reality and who "we are" as an ego identity.. but as far as who we are on a universal level.. well..

We do see time as linear. But perhaps time is not linear at all. Perhaps, like most things in the universe.. it is a cycle. A continuous motion.

I believe in free will. I have the free will to think as I choose, and subsequently act as I choose. Granted.. there are certain blocks that attach polarities to memories, distorting my perception of true events.. past memories influencing my decisions of today... but when it's all said and done.. I have every last bit of control over my reality, and I choose what to do with it.

When I say I, I mean the I that is the eternal soul form. Not the ego, material consciousness.


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