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Swami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: On guru's and teachers [Re: Icelander]
#4474708 - 07/30/05 07:54 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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Follow your heart ( this does not mean follow your emotions )
Please explain EXACTLY what this does mean.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: On guru's and teachers [Re: Swami]
#4474723 - 07/30/05 08:02 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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To me the heart center is not based in emotions. Conscious love is a calm, serene merging with yourself, other people, or other forms of energy. Emotions I equate more with our needs and or addictions. I am still working on this one myself, so any ideas or thoughts are appreciated.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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eve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--


Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 3,910
Loc: isle de la muerte
Last seen: 1 month, 11 days
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Re: On guru's and teachers [Re: Icelander]
#4474842 - 07/30/05 08:37 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: What pisses me off is the ridiculous (IMO) comments of you and Sinbad. Didn't you notice your ego tripping. " are you guys in high school" "the"re all just ignorant", that kind of talk which I hear from enlightened religious folk ( not just Buddhists) all the time.
You seemed to have missed my point, which was teachers abound, every person is one from time to time. All just people. Sorry but I don't buy the master bit. I've seen the clay feet of too many since the late 60s. Some of us actually think that you can be on a valid spiritual path without one, can you imagine. I have had the chance to watch all the guru followers of my acquaintance for enough years to see them drop out one by one, sadly unenlightened, and now after the security of the middle class. It might have been better for them to have the guts to go out into the mountains and take a committed dose of shrooms and face themselves. But that may have turned out the same also. For me it didn't.
So I don't care what you believe, that doesn't "piss me off", it's your attitude of condescending and egoic self assurance that irritates.
But you have had teachers and learned from them, and now you would say to others, "Don't have teachers because everyone is a teacher." That's sort of hypocritical. I just figured that hating teachers is a sort of high-schoolish attitude. I hated teachers in high school. I remember songs to the point like "Fools" by Van Halen.
So read me how you will. I just find it sort of poignant how, from cool when people agree with you, you go to being a judgemental, self righteous know it all dick who can't allow any view but your own. Just because you don't believe in any masters. The thread wasn't about masters but about teachers. The only master anyone discussed was you discussing it from your own mind, your mind of potential masters and their collossal failure for you.
Myself, I believe in masters. Jimi Hendrix, Jimmy Page. They were masters of guitar. Etc...
Not believing in masters just means that you think you're just oh too cool. You're the ego trippin one Bro.
-------------------- ...or something
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Shroomism
Space Travellin


Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 66,015
Loc: 9th Dimension
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Re: On guru's and teachers [Re: eve69]
#4475218 - 07/30/05 10:16 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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We are all teacher and student Some excel at things more fluidly
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
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Re: On guru's and teachers [Re: Shroomism]
#4475878 - 07/31/05 12:22 AM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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"We are all teacher and student Some excel at things more fluidly"
Good one
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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Braveheart
four corners ofScotland

Registered: 07/30/05
Posts: 56
Loc: Highland, Scotland
Last seen: 18 years, 5 months
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Re: On guru's and teachers [Re: MOTH]
#4476087 - 07/31/05 01:31 AM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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Guru's, teachers. Words simply used to show the rank of the pecking order. You need not rely on others for your path, set in the way you have followed. For how it is, has come from long before. And you only have your way set before you by the eons of past karma. Your soul is a mighty beacon of stone, to stand through the thin lines of death and rebirth. We rise like birds of fire to smelt the gold of our hearts in forges long spoken. What you seek out is eternal, thus no man can show you.
-------------------- William Wallace
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,704
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Re: On guru's and teachers [Re: Braveheart]
#4476473 - 07/31/05 05:08 AM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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I know what ellimyshade wants: there is a simple elegance to meeting someone who is impeccable. you meet someone and know instantly - & you are already learning something. that person never declares "I am impeccable", there is simply no trail of unfinished business, all is in the moment. when he is hungry he eats. "gurus" might emerge from the shadows near sufi groups, near buddhist groups, etc. sometimes they give a talk. rarely is there a book for sale or any fee involved. sometimes you find them in line for a movie, in class at school, or at a bar mitzva.
--------------------
_ 🧠 _
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Sinbad
Living TheMoment


Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 2,571
Loc: Under The Bodhi Tree
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Re: On guru's and teachers [Re: Icelander]
#4476537 - 07/31/05 06:53 AM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: What pisses me off is the ridiculous (IMO) comments of you and Sinbad. Didn't you notice your ego tripping. " are you guys in high school" "the"re all just ignorant", that kind of talk which I hear from enlightened religious folk ( not just Buddhists) all the time.
You seemed to have missed my point, which was teachers abound, every person is one from time to time. All just people. Sorry but I don't buy the master bit. I've seen the clay feet of too many since the late 60s. Some of us actually think that you can be on a valid spiritual path without one, can you imagine. I have had the chance to watch all the guru followers of my acquaintance for enough years to see them drop out one by one, sadly unenlightened, and now after the security of the middle class. It might have been better for them to have the guts to go out into the mountains and take a committed dose of shrooms and face themselves. But that may have turned out the same also. For me it didn't.
So I don't care what you believe, that doesn't "piss me off", it's your attitude of condescending and egoic self assurance that irritates.
Ego-tripping 
I just said that most people here seem to be very ignorant of how a teacher/guru can be infintley beneficial to ones spiriutal life.Until you meet a teacher, or guru, who helps you in limitless ways, to develop spiritually , you will remain in judgmental ignorance of how useful real teachers can be. Whilst its true that all circumstances and situations can be teachings in themselves, this does not negate the very real possibility of encountering a person in life who has more wisdom, knowlege and compassion, who can help one on ones path, whatever that may be.
Anyone who dismisses the usefulness and benefit of having teachers, mentors and spiriutally inspirational figures in ones life are obviosly ignorant of how uselful and important that can be.
You seemed to have jumped the gun, and read to much into my words, without stopping to contemplate what they might actually mean. Did'nt you notice your own rash, judgemental ego-tripping?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: On guru's and teachers [Re: eve69]
#4476544 - 07/31/05 06:57 AM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
eve69 said:
Quote:
Icelander said: What pisses me off is the ridiculous (IMO) comments of you and Sinbad. Didn't you notice your ego tripping. " are you guys in high school" "the"re all just ignorant", that kind of talk which I hear from enlightened religious folk ( not just Buddhists) all the time.
You seemed to have missed my point, which was teachers abound, every person is one from time to time. All just people. Sorry but I don't buy the master bit. I've seen the clay feet of too many since the late 60s. Some of us actually think that you can be on a valid spiritual path without one, can you imagine. I have had the chance to watch all the guru followers of my acquaintance for enough years to see them drop out one by one, sadly unenlightened, and now after the security of the middle class. It might have been better for them to have the guts to go out into the mountains and take a committed dose of shrooms and face themselves. But that may have turned out the same also. For me it didn't.
So I don't care what you believe, that doesn't "piss me off", it's your attitude of condescending and egoic self assurance that irritates.
But you have had teachers and learned from them, and now you would say to others, "Don't have teachers because everyone is a teacher." That's sort of hypocritical. I just figured that hating teachers is a sort of high-schoolish attitude. I hated teachers in high school. I remember songs to the point like "Fools" by Van Halen.
So read me how you will. I just find it sort of poignant how, from cool when people agree with you, you go to being a judgemental, self righteous know it all dick who can't allow any view but your own. Just because you don't believe in any masters. The thread wasn't about masters but about teachers. The only master anyone discussed was you discussing it from your own mind, your mind of potential masters and their collossal failure for you.
Myself, I believe in masters. Jimi Hendrix, Jimmy Page. They were masters of guitar. Etc...
Not believing in masters just means that you think you're just oh too cool. You're the ego trippin one Bro.
Have you read my posts throughout this thread? I was the first to encourage her to find a teacher if that's where her heart lead. That sort of negates your assumption that I say don't have teachers.
I think that with all the exposure of fake masters/teachers over the years it isn''t highschoolish at all to doubt them. Just the opposite in fact.
Thanks for calling me a "self rightoue know it all dick who can't allow any view but my own." I will let others judge if this is true. Anyway I'm sure you learned your debate technique from your living teacher. ( kidding).
So what is the difference between Master and teacher? I have heard the term enlightened applys to Masters. So are living teachers not enlightened? I'm open to correction here.
If your term of Master/teacher doesn't enclude someone who is enlightened and doesn't still have more to learn and is just human like Jimmy page. Well then sorry, I just assumed you were using the term in the usual religious context. Am I wrong?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Arp
roving mycophagist


Registered: 04/20/98
Posts: 2,191
Loc: in a van by the river
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Re: On guru's and teachers [Re: Icelander]
#4476577 - 07/31/05 07:25 AM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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I agree
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder


Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 20 days
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Re: On guru's and teachers [Re: MOTH]
#4476820 - 07/31/05 10:15 AM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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There is a teaching which says in effect, 'When you know how to listen, everyone is your Guru.' This has proven itself true for me. For example, I had two building contractors come to my house because I'd like to enclose an outer atrium. I had to practically cajole one guy and when he showed up he had a most disagreeable appearance and and even worse demeanor! He paced off the space and told me it was 22X18 feet (it's 15'X14'), looked up and down didn't say anything and when I asked for a ballpark estimate, he said "Ten to fifteen thousand, maybe more," turned without saying a word and walked back to his truck. The impact of this interaction left me with an emotional response. That response taught me that this 'Guru' had reflected in me a number of 'uncooked seeds' of aversion, distaste, annoyance, etc.
Yesterday, a much more sophisticated female contractor came by. She took actual measurements and photos. She also answered questions. When I asked her for a ballpark figure, she said "Fifty thousand dollars." My Lady and I didn't flinch, but then she said to the contractor "it's not worth it to us for that amount" at which the contractor began to 'backpeddle' saying ' hmmm, well, no plumbing or sewage hookup....I'll have to get back to you with a figure.' My Lady left and I chatted the contractor up a bit (which surprised me because I'm not experienced in flirting or manipulating women, but this one clearly liked me and smiled quite a bit when my Lady wasn't present). After she left, I began to feel like another greedy Miamian (although the female contractor was recently here from London) had looked me directly in the face and told me to 'bend over!' Fifty thousand dollars for 2 block walls, 2 windows, 4 wall outlets in unfinished wallboard and a poured slab. I was pissed! Another lesson on how 'I' respond: 1) to a female who seemingly likes me while 2) trying to screw me royally.
These examples are merely to illustrate the teaching that I noted. One makes a BIG mistake if one's preconceived notion leads one to a self-proclaimed spiritual teacher. Asking advice from an older and more-experienced 'seeker' whom one knows directly or who has had a clearly positive effect on a friend or loved one is equivalent to the Guru-chela relationship in India. There, it is through personal contact, not Yellow Pages or web-sites that one meets someone trustworthy enough to be recognized as a Guru.*
*(Of which BTW there are 2 types: Sat Guru and Upa Guru. The first one teaches with his/her being, the second type is more of a teacher).
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
Edited by MarkostheGnostic (07/31/05 11:47 AM)
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Whats notably interesting about your reply Markos is that you knew how to use both those people to teach you more about yourself. That makes you more of a self taught person, your own student teacher.
Think of how many people would have had that experience and learned nothing about themselves. At best they would have formed only judgments about the contractors with no self examination of why they felt that way about them.
I was going to reply here earlier about how any teacher worth some spit will redirect everything back at the self. There are teachers who tell you how it is (bah) and then there are those who will help you discover what is for yourself (sweet)
Back in the day when I had myself a lesser then and not an equal to the cosmos I use to commune with Jesus. He was my fav teach. I would come to him with all sorts of questions and all he had for me were more questions for me to ask myself and answer for myself. They were golden. He never told me how it was. He showed me where to look for myself.
In the end when I quit turning to him, it was because he kept reiterating that the Christ within him is also within me and to give myself the same sense of trust and credit that I gave him or the Universal Christ Consciousness I should say.
Now I pretty much am my own self contained teacher student. Before you can do that, it seems that it does help for a time to have someone show you how that relationship with the self works. I also found that teachers worth something will bring you to your most humbling moments. It seems the first lesson is always one of great humility, like a prerequisite before the real self examination and discover can take place.
Experiencing that makes it easier to accept the ugly that is discovered along the way. Not because humility shows you the worst of you but because it shows you the best of you. It's experienced like that scene in Contact when Jodie Foster is looking out the window in absolute awe reduced to nothing by the beauty, tears welling in the eyes and kept saying, "I didn't know, I didn't know".
The only difference is that view shown to you is the beauty of your truth. There are no words to describe the awe and power in that sort of humility. It then makes it easier to start wiping away the tarnish when you have witnessed the silver beneath it.
The tarnish isn't you. Its just muck that was collected and cloaked over you along the way.
I don't know if any of this helps you Ellemy. I think is just meant more to inspire you towards your calling. It's worth following. And, what I just shared is a gentler version of what swami shared with you. That was spot on IMHO swami.
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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TXNimrod
Stranger
Registered: 07/05/05
Posts: 3
Last seen: 16 years, 6 months
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Re: On guru's and teachers [Re: MOTH]
#4477616 - 07/31/05 03:37 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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A realy good friend of mine found a book at Hastings Called
Ascension! By MSI I know the one we have we can go in and Read the Book or at least Sit down and Thumb threw it before you buy. It might answer your question then Just put it back on the Shelf..Thats Free... Always look at the Contents 
If you like to Read and Are realy lookin for a Teacher to help you out with questions the Ishaya's Helped me out. I'm geting a Grasp of what im doing in what we Call Life. Also if you like Torrents find a Dude called Alan Watts, He has a CD out called Alan Watts Teaches Meditation. Also Find out what you can about Varparsna ( bad spelling?) I know one of the others Mintioned it. If you realy want to know the Real Self,,First thing is to Read and Find out what your Realy Looking for. You can Be tought many things that can Just Add more Questions. I try to nip life Questions in the Bud as Fast as I can...leaves more time for Bliss.
Everything here is Everywhere; What is not here is nowhere at all
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eve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--


Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 3,910
Loc: isle de la muerte
Last seen: 1 month, 11 days
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Re: On guru's and teachers [Re: Icelander]
#4478642 - 07/31/05 09:02 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
So what is the difference between Master and teacher? I have heard the term enlightened applys to Masters. So are living teachers not enlightened? I'm open to correction here.
If your term of Master/teacher doesn't enclude someone who is enlightened and doesn't still have more to learn and is just human like Jimmy page. Well then sorry, I just assumed you were using the term in the usual religious context. Am I wrong?
I don't really acknowledge masters except in my imagination. This is for those teachers who seem to be exceptionally moral and also happy, truthful, and kind, etc etc etc.... I only really know of one, and that's the Dalai lama. But I haven't met him. Maybe he farts alot and picks his teeth, has bad breath, and likes to curse. So he's only a master because in my imagination he represents a sort of ideal that I cannot attain, not having his pedigree.
Like Jimmy Page. Doesn't matter how much I practice guitar I'll never be Jimmy Page. He's a master where we can actually see and hear his ability. I know I am not a master of much of anything.
For instance, I'm a chef. Right now I give cooking demos. Today I had a party of 12 people. Right now during summer we don't get many people so on a Sunday that's big business. So then what? My power goes out an hour before the party is to arrive. It's not important except that the air conditioning stopped and all of a sudden I'm sweating my ass off in 100 degrees and I have to stand in front of a bunch of people lecturing on cooking.
Then at the time they were supposed to come, out of the blue there's fifteen more people and I have to set up new tables which I have to get from a warehouse, and the people are complaining because they are bitchy and say they have a plane to catch, so can I do their group first since they made the reservation. The answer is no. They don't know why. the reason why is I get payed a flat rate for the demos and not by the hour so there's no way in hell I'm staying there beyond the allotted time. Because already it's getting late, I'm sweating like an assfucked donkey high in the Andes, and I still have to produce three more courses of twice the amount I had heated and ready to go. So I was a bit gripped up.
Did I explode or throw a tantrum, no. It's just the way this profession is. But was I all happy go lucky at the circumstances? Fuck no. It was work. If I was a master I would have taken it in stride and smiled wide and said, welcome all. Welcome.
So I'm no master. And I know what one looks like in my imagination. I asked the people to all come back in a half an hour. Told them I was by myself. Then when they were gone I considered walking the fuck out and never coming back.
But then the wife would kill me.
I was a teacher, but not a master. I can teach cooking but not how to not sweat in a hundred degrees and smile when life broadsides my plans.
Of course I did fake a few smiles for the audience.
-------------------- ...or something
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: On guru's and teachers [Re: eve69]
#4478683 - 07/31/05 09:11 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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Well that's a great story from your own experience. You may not know any Masters, but you are the master of your life. I think you, sweating in your 100 degree heat, are playing hide and seek with your divinity. You are the Master. And a cool guy, in my book.
Now how about sharing some of that food.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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AvatarofAtavism
Stranger

Registered: 07/14/05
Posts: 153
Loc: canada
Last seen: 18 years, 3 months
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Re: On guru's and teachers [Re: Icelander]
#4478885 - 07/31/05 10:10 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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How about a mentor as a life-companion? A mate? That seems to be the ulimate goal. Reciprocal mentoring? heh.
Also, sex. Can't let the race die out while you're learning things.
-------------------- Do not despair, said the mystery. You will always have a friend in me. Untill the day you break my code. Then I will be gone, and you are free... to manifest another.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Yes why not. My current life companion and I are the best of spiritual friends. Veritas and I work it out together everyday. She has definately been my sexual mentor. She has amazing skills in Tantra. Fortunately she is patient with me! We have lots of fun.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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