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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
waiting
Male

Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 11 years, 11 days
treason
    #4478420 - 07/31/05 09:50 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

What the heck is that anyway?

talking or doing something against a certain government.

It's like, I proclaim myself to be the leader of a group of people, and make it look like it is immoral to dissagree with me and question my motifs. It's ridiculous.

Everyone has a right to dislike, or even throw down his own government if he dissagrees with it, and has enough power to do it.
governments are made to be changed over and over again


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 10,344
Loc: On the Border
Re: treason [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4478440 - 07/31/05 09:56 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

No it is betraying the physical security of one's country. There are many types of information that could do this. Let's say you gave the blueprints to a public transportation system or a water treatment facility to Al Quaeda, and you knew that they were going to use it to cause injury to the people in your country. That would be treason. Just criticising your country is not treason...it should be the right of all people...though it is not everywhere. My country's "Declaration of Independance" says that it is the civic duty of all U.S. citizens to overthrow their nations government when it no longer serves the people.

/then runs away with fingers in ears


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
waiting
Male

Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 11 years, 11 days
Re: treason [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4478465 - 07/31/05 10:02 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Well, the declaration of independence says a smart thing then.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 93,974
Loc: underbelly
Re: treason [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4478466 - 07/31/05 10:02 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 93,974
Loc: underbelly
Re: treason [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4478476 - 07/31/05 10:03 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
Well, the declaration of independence says a smart thing then.




This country was founded on some wonderfull principles. :heart: That's why some of us are sad. We are afraid we are losing them, and off the track.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: treason [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4478489 - 07/31/05 10:09 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

What the heck is that anyway?

It's taking an oath and proclaiming loyalty to the core values of a society while betraying that society covertly.

It's the societal version of marital infidelity.

Nothing wrong with swinging, but if you tell your partner you won't and you do, that's treason.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: treason [Re: Icelander]
    #4478492 - 07/31/05 10:11 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

This country was founded on some wonderfull principles. That's why some of us are sad. We are afraid we are losing them, and off the track.

A wise and frugal Government shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government. -- Thomas Jefferson


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 10,344
Loc: On the Border
Re: treason [Re: Icelander]
    #4478495 - 07/31/05 10:12 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

At this point you can still affect a change through voting. To consider overthrowing the government would require us to be in very desparate straights. It is true that our country was founded on the the idea of revolution...it is even reflected in the fact that there is an election (revolution) every four years. It is true that recently our liberties have been impacted. I see it as governmental panic based on paranoia. I feel that the pendulum will swing back the other way before too long. These things tend to come in cycles.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 93,974
Loc: underbelly
Re: treason [Re: Diploid]
    #4478498 - 07/31/05 10:13 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

:thumbup: :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 93,974
Loc: underbelly
Re: treason [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4478506 - 07/31/05 10:17 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
At this point you can still affect a change through voting. To consider overthrowing the government would require us to be in very desparate straights. It is true that our country was founded on the the idea of revolution...it is even reflected in the fact that there is an election (revolution) every four years. It is true that recently our liberties have been impacted. I see it as governmental panic based on paranoia. I feel that the pendulum will swing back the other way before too long. These things tend to come in cycles.




It's tricky.  One needs to know when to act and when to wait. I am not the one who knows. Politics is no longer my arena. If the pendulum swings back, all I can say is. Good!  :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineOldWoodSpecter
waiting
Male

Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 11 years, 11 days
Re: treason [Re: Diploid]
    #4478507 - 07/31/05 10:17 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
What the heck is that anyway?

It's taking an oath and proclaiming loyalty to the core values of a society while betraying that society covertly.

It's the societal version of marital infidelity.

Nothing wrong with swinging, but if you tell your partner you won't and you do, that's treason.





and I supose an oath means that even when you change your mind, you will force yourself against your will and belief to do something


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 10,344
Loc: On the Border
Re: treason [Re: Icelander]
    #4478613 - 07/31/05 10:54 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

"One needs to know when to act and when to wait."

If the moment to act ever does comes it will bring a lot of misery with it. Our way of life and the comforts we enjoy will vanish when such a step is taken. An armed revolution in this country would probably end in a foreign government becoming involved for opportunistic reasons. When you make the decision to start a civil war a lot of really nasty stuff will follow. The Americqn Civil War killed more U.S. citizens than nearly all other American wars combined.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 93,974
Loc: underbelly
Re: treason [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4478644 - 07/31/05 11:02 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I agree. Sadly I now have doubts that the American people would ever in mass rise up against it's govt. for any reason. I think if the pendulum doesn't swing back, it would be more likely that the US will degenerate into a freedomless land. Remember Hue, I  said doubts, not certainties :grin: Let's hope I am so very wrong. :heart: :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: treason [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4478786 - 07/31/05 11:48 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

and I supose an oath means that even when you change your mind, you will force yourself against your will and belief to do something

An oath is unconditional in my book. That's why it should be taken seriously. Don't take an oath unless you're sure.

[quick OT tangent] This is one of my big gripes against the institution of marriage (gay, straight, whatever). I put a lot more value in another's oath to me than in a frivolous (and expensive) ceremony where you can change your mind and get a divorce any time you want to.

A commitment (promise, oath) should not be something you can change your mind about. If you allow changing your mind, it devalues the oath and what's the point then? Might as well just do it and keep your mouth shut about the commitment part; that way, no harm done if you change your mind later.

But if you take an oath...


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 10,344
Loc: On the Border
Re: treason [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4478957 - 08/01/05 12:26 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

The types of oaths one is required take in order to maintain national security are very straight forward ones that directly address the passing of classified information to those without a need to know. This is not a frivolous promise meant to limit one's freedom of speech. I know, as I had to sign one upon recieving a top secret clearance in the U.S. Army. I handled radio code books for a short time while filling in for someone else. The contents of these books are classified. It was easy for me to see how an enemy in war time could exploit that information to take lives.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineOldWoodSpecter
waiting
Male

Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 11 years, 11 days
Re: treason [Re: Diploid]
    #4480138 - 08/01/05 07:35 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
and I supose an oath means that even when you change your mind, you will force yourself against your will and belief to do something

An oath is unconditional in my book. That's why it should be taken seriously. Don't take an oath unless you're sure.

[quick OT tangent] This is one of my big gripes against the institution of marriage (gay, straight, whatever). I put a lot more value in another's oath to me than in a frivolous (and expensive) ceremony where you can change your mind and get a divorce any time you want to.

A commitment (promise, oath) should not be something you can change your mind about. If you allow changing your mind, it devalues the oath and what's the point then? Might as well just do it and keep your mouth shut about the commitment part; that way, no harm done if you change your mind later.

But if you take an oath...





But marriage IS an oath.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
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