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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: God Bless America [Re: looner2]
    #4471441 - 07/29/05 08:42 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

None! :smile: :heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (07/29/05 08:42 PM)

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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: God Bless America [Re: Icelander]
    #4471452 - 07/29/05 08:44 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
None! :smile: :heart:




Shame, I thought we would get into the meat of the matter. Oh well, another day maybe.


--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: God Bless America [Re: looner2]
    #4471458 - 07/29/05 08:45 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Not with me. Maybe someone else will. :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
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Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
Re: God Bless America [Re: Icelander]
    #4472416 - 07/30/05 12:40 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

I appreciate your comment. It is a gross generalization among young liberals that patriots are idiots and dupes. I recently read Al Franken's book "Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them". I was moved by his assertion that a true patriot is not one who blindly follows the ruling party...for this individual is motivated by self interest, but a true patriot is not afraid to criticise his country to help his countrymen achieve a higher standard.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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OfflineNinjamutantballe
Ninjaballe?
Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 5
Last seen: 18 years, 9 months
Re: God Bless America [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4472705 - 07/30/05 01:53 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
I appreciate your comment. It is a gross generalization among young liberals that patriots are idiots and dupes. I recently read Al Franken's book "Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them". I was moved by his assertion that a true patriot is not one who blindly follows the ruling party...for this individual is motivated by self interest, but a true patriot is not afraid to criticise his country to help his countrymen achieve a higher standard.




But what is the POINT of being patriotic?
What does one gain from patriotism?
Must one be patriot in order to wish to make things better in ones country?


--------------------
Ninja?

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Invisiblespud
I'm so fly.

Registered: 10/07/02
Posts: 44,410
Re: God Bless America [Re: Ninjamutantballe]
    #4472749 - 07/30/05 02:13 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

One doesn't intentionally become patriotic. It is an effect.

For some, it's natural.

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OfflineBlueCoyote
Beyond
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Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
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Last seen: 3 years, 5 months
Re: God Bless America [Re: looner2]
    #4472879 - 07/30/05 03:15 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Patriotism is needed to survive
That is just not true, Think about nomads.

It is the leaders who make the decisions and the people that follow.
Welcome in the world of remote-controlled robo-minds ? No thanks.

By the way, even the so called 'nationalists' are strongly capable of destroying the beloved nature of your country. Think about thoses industry, which claim 'for the wealth of the country' by destroying the environment and exploit the people.
And yes, Hitler also was a nationalist.

But, of course, there did have been some good 'kings' for some countriers, as well.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Offline4theist20
Stranger
Registered: 07/11/05
Posts: 14
Last seen: 18 years, 8 months
Re: God Bless America [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4472932 - 07/30/05 04:24 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Patriotism seems more likely to cause death than preserve life. As far as the bumber sticker goes, I agree with it being a rediculous concept.

I personally do not believe America became the country it was intended to be. There are countries with more freedoms than America.

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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: God Bless America [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4473072 - 07/30/05 07:01 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
That is just not true, Think about nomads.




Oh my god.

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
Welcome in the world of remote-controlled robo-minds ? No thanks.




Just as we have specialists in every area of the buisness sector that have their skills honed to a particular duty, so do we have leaders whos job is to protect our lives. Ideas are weak, and even the dullest can embrace one. It takes real strength to change ideas into actions, and those that lead have the courage to do so, and hence should be obeyed.

A nation remote-controlled-idea-followers (individuals) are what will tear down this country.

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:By the way, even the so called 'nationalists' are strongly capable of destroying the beloved nature of your country. Think about thoses industry, which claim 'for the wealth of the country' by destroying the environment and exploit the people.
And yes, Hitler also was a nationalist.




Yes, sometimes nationalists fail at doing what is best for the country, that is a fact of existence. Policy and strategy are extremely important, but as long as they are IN the interest of the nation, then they are doing their job.

Your industry comment was stupid.

Hitler also had black hair.


--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth


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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: God Bless America [Re: Ninjamutantballe]
    #4473274 - 07/30/05 10:30 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Ninjamutantballe said:
I just have to comment on paradigms idea of surviving versus helping
others. Isn't it a strange paradox that you claim you want to put
yourself in first room, to help yourself first, instead of others,
because you need to survive, when the fact is that this is a basic
condition manufactured by the very system you are trying to defend?



Nonsense. It is an axiom of nature. It existed long before capitalism, and even exists in socialism, despite the efforts of socialists to get rid of it. And I never said one should help themselves instead of helping others, only that one must help themselves first before they are able to hel[p others.

Quote:

This is interesting. How much DO you know about socialism, I mean really? Sounds like you have created yourself quite a boogieman.



As a former socialist, I can vouch for it pretty well.

Quote:

Who told you socialism advocates same wages?



History

Quote:

Then I think it's strange you put such effort in bombarding
socialism, when discussing to Arp, when he has never claimed
he defends socialism or less claims being a socialist? Not
everybody who criticizes capitalism is socialist.



He has posted a video in PAL from worldsocialism.org, and defended its claims.

Quote:

Also, would be interesting to hear how you mean
socialism CREATES poverty.



By robbing people of the fruits of their labor, it robs the nation of its productivity, and thus puts the economy in the shitter.


--------------------

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InvisibleArp
roving mycophagist
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Registered: 04/20/98
Posts: 2,191
Loc: in a van by the river
Re: God Bless America [Re: looner2]
    #4473350 - 07/30/05 11:21 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Strategy to eliminate stress on the enviroment, poverty & exploitation are priority #1

Of all things, these I value the most :thumbup:

Competing nations seldom are benefitial to these criteras.

Unite earth! If you feel so insecure, be proud of your planet!

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InvisibleArp
roving mycophagist
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Registered: 04/20/98
Posts: 2,191
Loc: in a van by the river
Re: God Bless America [Re: Arp]
    #4473359 - 07/30/05 11:23 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

He has posted a video in PAL from worldsocialism.org, and defended its claims.

I wanted a discussion. I also mentioned that I was into dialectic.
People see what they want to see & hear what they want to hear.

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InvisibleArp
roving mycophagist
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Registered: 04/20/98
Posts: 2,191
Loc: in a van by the river
Re: God Bless America [Re: Arp]
    #4473380 - 07/30/05 11:30 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

People see what they want to see & hear what they want to hear.

And that is ignorance my friend :rolleyes:

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InvisibleArp
roving mycophagist
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Registered: 04/20/98
Posts: 2,191
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Silversoul]
    #4473391 - 07/30/05 11:33 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

paradigm gallery

Oh my oh my :thumbdown:

Why am I not suprised? :frown:

Edited by Arp (07/30/05 12:25 PM)

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: God Bless America [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4473425 - 07/30/05 11:44 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
I appreciate your comment. It is a gross generalization among young liberals that patriots are idiots and dupes. I recently read Al Franken's book "Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them". I was moved by his assertion that a true patriot is not one who blindly follows the ruling party...for this individual is motivated by self interest, but a true patriot is not afraid to criticise his country to help his countrymen achieve a higher standard.




Right on. We agree on the definition of patriot. While personally I believe we are all one and for our benefit need to realize it. I also know that most people don't feel this way. If I believed my country was making the correct choices for the good of our stated beliefs, then I would defend her against all comers who would destroy that. That includes attack from inside the country.

I am currently engaged in this effort by living according to my beliefs about my country and sharing that with the people within my sphere of influence. Freedom of self expression as long as you don't harm another is worth fighting for. You don't necessarily have to use violence to fight. Often it's counterproductive. I find that loving others and allowing them the freedom to be themselves as long as they are not harming others is a patriotic act.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineNinjamutantballe
Ninjaballe?
Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 5
Last seen: 18 years, 9 months
Re: God Bless America [Re: Silversoul]
    #4473470 - 07/30/05 12:22 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Nonsense.  It is an axiom of nature.  It existed long before capitalism,
and even exists in socialism, despite the efforts of socialists to get rid
of it.  And I never said one should help themselves instead of helping
others, only that one must help themselves first before they are able to hel[p others.




Many things existed long before capitalism, which we have successfully abolished.
Having nature as excuse for anything is kinda poor, since humans possess the weakness
for mimic, sympathy and mas suggestion, which enables us, with joy, to sympathize with
practically everything, especially when we are scared and feel unsafe. This is no news
for those who are in charge systems, whether  is capitalism or any other system.

What is important here though is what atmosphere a system creates. If people in a
society feel safe and feel that one can survive, you will be able to help and, most
importantly, TRUST others, and if you trust others and they trust you, you feel like
a part of a society of people, without fear somebody of robbing ones livelihood.

If an animal feels stressed, threatened or intimidated, then NATURALLY it's human
nature to become hostile and suspicious of other people; every man for themselves / rat race...

Quote:

As a former socialist, I can vouch for it pretty well.




Being socialist is just puting a label for yourself.
It's just a word, the question is; do you understand that word?

One doesn't need to be a part of anything to understand the theory.
Every system that has been around does make sense, that is the tricky
part for everybody to understand. It just a matter of relation and
perspective. Where does a person want to see oneself. It's fully
configurable.

Quote:

History




History schmistory. It's foolish to be inductive, especially when
comes down to theory versus actual practice. History gives us very
good advise for things to come, but one has to watch out not to
make out of it something one wishes to be there, cause if you look
for it, you will find it. Everybody knows history repeats itself,
that is the POINT of doing something about things that don't work
out, rather than become deterministic about it.

The claim of same wages under socialism is false. What socialism
does advocate is that you get what your labor is worth. If you
work more, you get more. The more trying work, the more you get paid.

Many people today claim that educating oneself in order to sit
in an office and surf the web is as hard as failing school totally
and forced to work in a coalmine, or flushing the sewers, but STILL
we know who gets more paid.

Quote:

He has posted a video in PAL from worldsocialism.org, and defended its claims.




So that makes him socialist? Oh boy, by now, you probably have stamped me as socialist as well :wink:

Quote:

By robbing people of the fruits of their labor, it robs the nation of its productivity, and thus puts the economy in the shitter.




Ok, NOW it gets interesting! Being a former socialist, and (as you claimed) understanding it's
principals and all, shouldn't you be aware of the fact that when you work for a private company,
you are granting away your labor practically FOR FREE, and in gain, you are allowed to keep
some of the leftovers of the profit? Some strangers PROFIT from your labor. And
if you wish to keep more of the profit that YOU have created for them, you will most likely
to be replaced. Now, if you would put this in another system, let's say socialism, you'd either
get paid what your labor is worth, or the "profit" goes to the state - and who is the state
in such system? It's you! You and everybody else. And this money would be used to make reasonable
public schools, health care, raise the common welfare and other hippie-stuff, instead of the
money disappearing into private interests.

Who's economy is put in the shitter? The state's ???:)


--------------------
Ninja?

Edited by Ninjamutantballe (07/30/05 12:38 PM)

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: God Bless America [Re: Ninjamutantballe]
    #4473478 - 07/30/05 12:27 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Hey Ninja, Welcome to the Shroomery/fray. :grin: It seems you have something to say. Enjoy. :heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
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Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
Re: God Bless America [Re: Icelander]
    #4473597 - 07/30/05 01:15 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

I agree with you here on every level. I will say that I do view all humans as my brothers. Being partiotic towards my country does not violate this as it is a political construct not a spiritual one.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
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Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
Re: God Bless America [Re: Ninjamutantballe]
    #4473607 - 07/30/05 01:16 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

You asked me what purpose patriotism serves...it serves to improve the community my neighbors and I live in.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Invisiblespud
I'm so fly.

Registered: 10/07/02
Posts: 44,410
Re: God Bless America [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4473633 - 07/30/05 01:24 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Patriotism denotes positive attitudes by a person to their own nation, to its national homeland, its culture, its 'true' members, and to its interests. It is often associated with ethnocentrism - the belief that the national or ethnic group is superior to others, and should be used as a standard to judge them. Patriotism often implies a relatively less positive attitude to other nations, and to internal minorities which are not considered part of the nation. The word is derived from the Latin patria, fatherland, which has a much broader meaning than a geographical territory.

I don't think you realize the true definition of Patriotism.

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