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OfflinePhluck
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Registered: 04/10/99
Posts: 11,394
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 3 months, 24 days
Re: Fish oil beats statin drugs [Re: zorbman]
    #4468061 - 07/29/05 06:33 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:


This would mean that even rare adverse events caused by statin "treatment" will, in comparison, be significant. Even 1 severe rhabdomyolysis event or 1 severe hepatitis event per hundred per year caused by a statin will be significant.





I don't follow your logic. I don't think it's one in 100 who are experiencing these effects. Making up numbers to help your case isn't exactly honest.

Your claims about amnesia are ridiculous. You're talking about old two anecdotes of old people getting two different brain disorders after starting lipitor. Considering how common brain disorders are among the old, and how many of them are on lipitor, this hardly seems significant.

Just because someone gets really angry and makes a website about something doesn't mean they aren't full of shit.

Quote:


Frequent side effects are probably a major reason why up to 75% of people taking statins discontinue their use. People hate this shitty drug when they use it and rightfully so. (Avorn J, et al. Persistence of use of lipid-lowering medications: a cross-national study. Journal of the American Medical Association, May 13, 1998; Vol. 279, No. 18: 1458-1462)

The public needs to wake up and demand better accountability from the medical establishment. They deserve better.
The time to stop the aggressive pushing of these poisons is now.




An angry rant without good facts to back it up is just an angry rant.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflinePhluck
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Registered: 04/10/99
Posts: 11,394
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 3 months, 24 days
Re: Fish oil beats statin drugs [Re: zorbman]
    #4468075 - 07/29/05 06:40 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:


Ten of the 14 patients (71%) developed abnormalities in the heart's diastolic phase (when the heart muscle fills with blood). Diastolic dysfunction is a major cause of congestive heart failure in older people.

Of the 10 patients who had worsening of LV diastolic function, 9 were supplemented with 300 mg/day of Coenzyme Q10 (100 mg orally 3 times daily) for an additional 3 months while continuing to take atorvastatin.

Eight of these 9 patients (89%) had reversal of one or markers of diastolic abnormality, four patients (44%) had reversal of all three of the diastolic parameters employed, while one patient had no change in the parameters.




Okay, and what about the control group?

Without the control, the results are meaningless, you're entirely guessing on cause and effect.

Listen, you're ignoring my question.

How do you know that there aren't just as many rare side effects with omega 3's, when they haven't been studied nearly as much?

You're just assuming that being "natural" makes them safer, which is nonsense.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Invisiblezorbman
blarrr
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Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,952
Re: Fish oil beats statin drugs [Re: Phluck]
    #4469763 - 07/29/05 03:00 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Making up numbers to help your case isn't exactly honest.

Throwing in the towel already?  :grin: Any unbiased person can see that I was demonstrating how easily statistics can be manipulated, not claiming those specific numbers applied to statins. You're the one being less than honest here. Typical tactic when someone is losing a debate.

Your claims about amnesia are ridiculous. You're talking about old two anecdotes of old people getting two different brain disorders after starting lipitor. Considering how common brain disorders are among the old, and how many of them are on lipitor, this hardly seems significant.

Your reading comprehension is what's ridiculous. "Old people"? Where did you get that idea? The stories I posted did not mention their ages! You're just making assumptions based upon your biases. If you had bothered to read the story you would know that Dr. Graveline started taking and being affected by this poison following his astronaut physical. Yes, he was a NASA doctor. You know those old codger astronauts, gotta keep 'em flying!  :rolleyes:

As far as there being only two anecdotes, there are many, many more where that came from. I won't bother posting them because you obviously don't read them and would sweep them under the rug anyhow.

There was no control group in the study I mentioned previously because it was a preliminary finding designed to raise questions about the toxicity of statins and encourage further study. Note that the group studied had no history of heart disease. What do you think the odds are that any control group would suddenly develop an over 70% rate of a very specific heart abnormality? Does this not create even an inkling of concern or should we sweep this under the rug also?

As to more research being done on statins as opposed to n3s, there has never been any reason to suspect these natural substances of toxicity. Omega 3 EFAs are being studied for their health effects and thus far, unlike statins, there is zero evidence they are toxic at any level of use. As far as flax goes, it has a long history of safe use dating back thousands of years to ancient Babylon. If it was toxic don't you think in all this time there would at least some reports of toxicity? If you have some evidence to the contrary, now would be the time to produce it.

An angry rant without good facts to back it up is just an angry rant.

I have provided facts every step of the way. If you start digging out from under the mountain of evidence against statins you might see the light.

It's interesting how you completely ignored the concerns of the Q10 medical experts on statin depletion of Coenzyme Q10. Did you find them to be ill-informed or angry? They seem like a pretty dispassionate bunch to me.

Here are the facts to date:

FACT: No conclusive evidence statins reduce CHD by lowering cholesterol levels or are any more effective than omega3 EFAs.
FACT: There are thousands of cases of unmentioned side effects from statins which are being ignored by statin makers.
FACT: Cholesterol lowering statins are poisonous.

If you would like to dispute any of the above, be my guest.


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch


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