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InvisibleVeritas
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The Flow of the True Self
    #4468439 - 07/29/05 12:05 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

There have been several posts recently about enlightenment: whether it is possible, what it looks like when it happens, how authors of books about it are mostly posers, etc...

I think enlightenment may be very different from what we have read about it.  I have an inkling that it might be related to both knowing AND expressing your true self fully.  This is a challenging task, especially because we are taught that the self is a static thing we can "figure out" once and for all.  We try to "find ourselves" as though we were lost, and, once found, can be kept.

But the self changes every instant!  Our concept of who we are, when we don't cling to it, can flow and transform. 

The more I accept this flow, and release the need to define myself as one thing or another, the more bliss I experience.  All the years of self-analysis (trying to FIND myself  :crazy:) only refined my neurosis.  It has been letting go of my self, more by more, that brings me the joy I was searching for.


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: The Flow of the True Self [Re: Veritas]
    #4468480 - 07/29/05 12:19 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

What is "enlightenment," and why does there seem to be so much confusion about it in these times?

Well, the confusion arises because so many people write about it without knowing it directly. One can become an expert on it without knowing it directly. Because an expert means you know a lot "about" something, but you do not necessarily know "it.? Confusion arises there.

What is enlightenment? Again, it is so vast not any one definition would do it justice. It would be a tiny aspect of it. And you can look at it from so many perspectives, this one, that one, that one. And every time it looks as if it were different.

Another reason why it can be confusing is you reach one person's definition of enlightenment, he or she is looking from "this" perspective. And then you read somebody else's, and they are looking from that perspective. There's the ancient old Indian story of blind men describing an elephant, one touching the trunk, another a leg, the tail, and soon. [Laughter]

The confusion arises in trying to understand through the mind what enlightenment is. That is impossible. Any description is only a signpost. So the mind can only go a certain way, and then the signpost has to be left behind. And the mind gets attached to a signpost, which is a teaching or description, a concept. And then confusion arises because then it sees another signpost and says, "Oh, maybe that is the true one." It becomes defensive, identifies with "this one" and says that's me.

So, to the question. "What is enlightenment?" one could say simply, it is when there is no longer any identification with thinking. When there is no longer self-identification with thought processes and self-seeking through thinking. Then the compulsive nature of thinking ceases. Then gaps arise in the mind-stream. That means the unconditioned consciousness arises and is realized as stillness or presence. There is nobody there who "realizes." It is realized. It realizes itself. [Chuckle]

~Interview with Eckhart Tolle




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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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Offlinedeff
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Re: The Flow of the True Self [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #4468485 - 07/29/05 12:21 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

great interview :cool:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The Flow of the True Self [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #4468524 - 07/29/05 12:31 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

but he is pointing at a static form again which the knotty definition of enlightenment will promptly untie.
Quote:

when there is no longer any ...



nyahh uhhh.
this is again an assumption of an absolute - fixed or final state,
so clearly, this is not an enlightened POV,
in which where you would expect a
fundamental integration of change and
continuation of the process of
fundamentaly integrating change
,

though you should also expect that even these words would untie their own defining knot of meaning as the concept is really supposed to be unbounded.

and that has to be ok too


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Invisiblemoog
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Re: The Flow of the True Self [Re: Veritas]
    #4468554 - 07/29/05 12:40 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

yes! It's easy to find yourself once you've stopped trying to define yourself. :laugh:


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: The Flow of the True Self [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4468558 - 07/29/05 12:42 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Is there not many habits, characteristics, behaviors or attributes that once existed in people across the world, that no longer do today?

Moreover, I doubt Eckart Tolle is assuming that Death isn't going to knock on our doors someday.




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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The Flow of the True Self [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #4468599 - 07/29/05 12:54 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

far too many people equate death with connecting to the infinite or with having an ecstatic or enlightening experience.

the suicide bomber is an excellent example of how mysticism in that direction is a very distorted (even evil).

do they not go out exclaiming "god is great! - kaboom!"?

the habit of using death ((as in biological termination of the life form) as the epitomy of mystical experience is the most idiotic habit all around the world. It should not be supported in any way.

on the other hand, carefully using death and rebirth as metaphors can be useful, as can the term "jihad" in which a metaphorical war is waged upon our own personal bad habits to improve our own personal character(s)


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InvisibleArp
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Re: The Flow of the True Self [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4468619 - 07/29/05 01:00 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

so basicly saying: death is cool unless you force it upon someone :laugh:


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: The Flow of the True Self [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4468632 - 07/29/05 01:04 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

You misunderstood.
The context in which Death was brought up is related to the cessation of our human existence and all of the internal details that are being discussed at hand. What takes place beyond Death - if anything - is a different story.



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OfflineGomp
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Re: The Flow of the True Self [Re: Veritas]
    #4468641 - 07/29/05 01:05 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I miss read, the flower is the real self,
but I think I like it! :P


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The Flow of the True Self - no end in sight [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #4468731 - 07/29/05 01:33 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

a frequent error is where "cessation" gets tossed in to the same pot with "enlightenment", and it should not be.

this is a spiritual cullinary faux pas,

the hindu concept of cessation was morphed into nirvana, and that did get crunched up into some buddhist dishes, but those should only be served on holidays, in which the ancestors are honored.

dealing with absolute forms including the idea of cessation really misdirects the student quite a bit, but you could temporarily adopt such absolutes as "up" and "down" for instance (which are "pure" but relative concepts in any case) these do help in adjusting a stooping posture.

the idea of cessation, however externalizes a process and virtualizes it into the realm of mysticism. the closest thing to that of value, is unlearning habits. other than that there is a lot of work to do, on an on-going basis, to alleviate suffering, and you could take it to mean "no end in sight".


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: The Flow of the True Self - no end in sight [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4468819 - 07/29/05 02:00 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

redgreenvines said:
Quote:


[Eckart Tolle:]when there is no longer any ...

this is again an assumption of an absolute - fixed or final state,




This is the statement that I referred to with the subject of Death.

You assumed that Eckhart Tolle held an assumption pertinent to a fixed or final state.

I responded with the rationale that under the assumption Eckhart Tolle is sane and rational himself, he knows that Death will be everybody's fate, one way or another. Hence, it can be inferred that he, in fact, does not form an assumption or belief that anybody sustains any state that is absolutely fixed, final or otherwise.




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Offlineergot
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Re: The Flow of the True Self - no end in sight [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #4468918 - 07/29/05 02:28 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

A constantly transforming self is illusory. It's samsara. It's identification with a personal continuity. There's a reason Siddhartha taught anatman.


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"Remain a learner, never become a knower." - Osho


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The Flow of the True Self - no end in sight [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #4468934 - 07/29/05 02:33 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

So, to the question. "What is enlightenment?" one could say simply, it is when there is no longer any identification with thinking. When there is no longer self-identification with thought processes and self-seeking through thinking. Then the compulsive nature of thinking ceases. Then gaps arise in the mind-stream. That means the unconditioned consciousness arises and is realized as stillness or presence. There is nobody there who "realizes." It is realized. It realizes itself.




the quote above is clearly not about death, it is about a supposed gap in self-seeking in the onging thinking process. in which the absolute issue of "no longer any identification with thinking" is clearly elucidated.

what? cured?
seduced more like. silken language seduces. but my detector goes off when I see references to "cessation" and "no longer".


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The Flow of the True Self - no end in sight [Re: ergot]
    #4468949 - 07/29/05 02:37 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ergot said:
A constantly transforming self is illusory. It's samsara. It's identification with a personal continuity. There's a reason Siddhartha taught anatman.



the metaphorical births and rebirths and deaths go here
we experience the movie created by the procession of selves, but need not identify with it or see it as other than what it is.


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Offlinedeff
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Re: The Flow of the True Self - no end in sight [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4469109 - 07/29/05 03:12 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

not I, not self, just a phenomenon :cool:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The Flow of the True Self - no end in sight [Re: deff]
    #4469914 - 07/29/05 05:26 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

zackly,
more phenomena


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OfflineGomp
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Re: The Flow of the True Self - no end in sight [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4469951 - 07/29/05 05:36 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

lies


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The Flow of the True Self - no end in sight [Re: Gomp]
    #4470020 - 07/29/05 05:49 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

i was hoping that gomp, the essential true flowing self would arrive to imprint upon us


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: The Flow of the True Self - no end in sight [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4470697 - 07/29/05 08:07 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

the quote above is clearly not about death,

Nor was any claim made to the contrary.

If you already know this, and have learned from my previous post why Death was brought up, then why did you feel the need to point this out?

but my detector goes off when I see references to "cessation" and "no longer".

I "no longer" feed an addiction to nicotine. I came to a "cessation" of learning how to operate tricycles with training wheels many years ago. :ooo:







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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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