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crunchytoast
oppositional
Registered: 04/07/05
Posts: 1,133
Loc: aporia
Last seen: 17 years, 1 day
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Re: Can truth be evil? [Re: MJF]
#4472205 - 07/29/05 11:57 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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lying is bad as being tactless IMO
-------------------- "consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger
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vampirism
Stranger
Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 8,120
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Re: Can truth be evil? [Re: SerioOria]
#4472224 - 07/30/05 12:00 AM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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not necessarily. Can you perceive perception; see beyond reality?
Note: yes, truth can be evil. Objectively evil? No. Subjectively? Most certainly. It's irrelevant what truth is, anyway Not like it exists.
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Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker
Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
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Re: Can truth be evil? [Re: vampirism]
#4472269 - 07/30/05 12:12 AM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
It's irrelevant what truth is, anyway Not like it exists.
That's the truth.
But the truth is you can learn to look beyond subjectivity. Because in the end, subjectivity really says nothing; all we know is this reality anyway, so why does it matter if it's subjective? It's absolute to us.
-------------------- So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
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Re: Can truth be evil? [Re: Ravus]
#4472321 - 07/30/05 12:24 AM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ravus said: But the truth is you can learn to look beyond subjectivity. Because in the end, subjectivity really says nothing; all we know is this reality anyway, so why does it matter if it's subjective? It's absolute to us.
Why does it matter if its subjective enough? Hhhm... probably because of the nature of the interplay between our environment and our mind, the manner that the mechanics that interpret and define our experience work in, etc. etc. etc....
Why does it matter if I think the Sun is, in actuality, a hologram created by the American government in order to trick us into not realizing that the actual Sun was destroyed by them some months ago so that they would be able to collect the particles from the Sun and transform them into a weapon of mass destruction, since it is an absolute, as a result of my perspective being subjective and all that is known to me?
Peace.
-------------------- If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker
Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
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Quote:
Hhhm... probably because of the nature of the interplay between our environment and our mind
Both are subjective and exist entirely within our perception/ headspace.
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the manner that the mechanics that interpret and define our experience work in
Yet this too exists entirely within our perception. So how is it anything more than subjective?
The point of subjectivity is everything is subjective. All that you perceive to exist only exists within your individual reality, and that is all we can confirm. We see other people, but do they actually exist or are they just datura visions? Do we create them? Do we create all of the universe? There's no way to tell, because we can't step outside of our reality.
And this is why I say subjectivity doesn't matter, because, taken to its end, it leads us nowhere. All we know is our reality, so to us, reality is absolute and objective; that is all that exists. Subjectivity loses its meaning, because even subjectivity is subjective. Yet for us, subjectivity is objective and absolute, because the only subjectivity that we know is the one that experience and create in our reality.
-------------------- So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
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Re: Can truth be evil? [Re: Ravus]
#4472451 - 07/30/05 12:47 AM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ravus said: Yet this too exists entirely within our perception. So how is it anything more than subjective?
Because the nature of reality is that it exists independantly of ourselves. If all of what we identify with as existance was simply a construct of our mind, I would not see the purpose of our physical senses and receptors. Clearly all of existance is known to us through the mind and as a result of the mind, but yet the mind would have absolutely no capability and no existance in itself if there was not an interplay between it and something else.
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The point of subjectivity is everything is subjective. All that you perceive to exist only exists within your individual reality, and that is all we can confirm. We see other people, but do they actually exist or are they just datura visions? Do we create them? Do we create all of the universe? There's no way to tell, because we can't step outside of our reality.
By the very nature of this, then, it is impossible to come to any conclusion about anything at all. The very fact that you have came to such a conclusion negates your conclusion, as it is based upon nothing.
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And this is why I say subjectivity doesn't matter, because, taken to its end, it leads us nowhere. All we know is our reality, so to us, reality is absolute and objective; that is all that exists.
And to claim that our reality, to us, is absolute and objective, taken to its end, leads us nowhere. The nature of the fact that we have an experience negates any possibillity of our perspective of reality being absolute and objective.
Peace.
-------------------- If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker
Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
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Because the nature of reality is that it exists independantly of ourselves.
There's no way to confirm this. It's pure speculation on what exists outside of our subjective reality, but there's no way to actually know if it's true.
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If all of what we identify with as existance was simply a construct of our mind, I would not see the purpose of our physical senses and receptors. Clearly all of existance is known to us through the mind and as a result of the mind, but yet the mind would have absolutely no capability and no existance in itself if there was not an interplay between it and something else.
How do we verify our physical senses and receptors? We verify the existence of our eyes because we can touch them, if we look in a mirror we can see them, in our reality we can see through them. Yet all of the evidence for our physical senses and even our mind exists entirely within our perception and our mind. Logic itself exists entirely within our subjective reality, so to use subjective logic to come to an objective conclusion (IE: I'm positive there is something outside of my reality) is uncertain and cannot be confirmed.
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By the very nature of this, then, it is impossible to come to any conclusion about anything at all.
Incorrect. We can come to countless conclusions within our reality. The only conclusions we can't confirm are those about existence outside of our reality, but within our reality we can use logic and science and reasoning to go in almost any possible direction of expansion.
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The very fact that you have came to such a conclusion negates your conclusion, as it is based upon nothing.
It is based in my subjective reality. What else would we base it in?
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And to claim that our reality, to us, is absolute and objective, taken to its end, leads us nowhere. The nature of the fact that we have an experience negates any possibillity of our perspective of reality being absolute and objective.
Why does experience negate the possibility of the experience being absolute? The only thing we can entirely confirm is the experience itself, so doesn't that make the experience the only absolute thing in existence to us? Anything outside of the experience is a complete quandary, but within the experience- that is where all knowledge and existence is based.
-------------------- So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: Can truth be evil? [Re: Ravus]
#4472595 - 07/30/05 01:22 AM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ravus said: There's no way to confirm this. It's pure speculation on what exists outside of our subjective reality, but there's no way to actually know if it's true.
Naturally. It's pure, reasonable, logical speculation based upon what we can directly observe from our environment as it occurs. Absolutely no way to confirm that it is true, but yet it is a concept that makes a lot of sense and doesn't result in a solipsistic downspiral in which nothing can exist, but yet the individual holding the belief still does (which sort of invalidates the whole claim, eh? )
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Incorrect. We can come to countless conclusions within our reality. The only conclusions we can't confirm are those about existence outside of our reality, but within our reality we can use logic and science and reasoning to go in almost any possible direction of expansion.
If all of these conclusions are based upon a conclusion that nothing can be concluded, then they are, in fact, baseless.
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It is based in my subjective reality. What else would we base it in?
It is based upon nothing because your subjective reality does not exist, as it has no space independant of it to exist within. I think. Honestly, this is new, open territory for me and I'm just spitting responses in an effort to learn.
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Why does experience negate the possibility of the experience being absolute?
It negates it, as, to experience, there has to be something that is experiencing the experience and something that is being experienced. If that which is experiencing, the experience itself, and that which is being experienced are not distinguished from each other, than nothing exists. Or something. The experience exists as the result of an interaction between two things. The mind cannot manifest this without interacting with something outside of itself, its environment. This isn't to say that aspects of the mind cannot interact, but even then, there are two distinct aspects interacting, and this requires a space in which to do this, which would exist objectively from these aspects.
If you can follow that, then you are probably fucking crazy.
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The only thing we can entirely confirm is the experience itself
You can confirm that the experience is being experienced, but you cannot confirm any context in which that experience exists. Therefore, to make any assumptions as to the context in which that experience exists, that is, to apply any meaning to it requires the concept of a subjective reality experiencing an objective reality; it requires that interplay.
Peace.
-------------------- If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger
Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
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Confusion seems a rational to this. Hail Eris.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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-------------------- If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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BlueCoyote
Beyond
Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: Can truth be evil? [Re: Ravus]
#4472915 - 07/30/05 03:45 AM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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Hey, there is something humans invented, called 'objectivity'. There are rules for that. Just this invention based the forthcoming of science and was constructed to overcome the struggles of subjectivity. Of course, one problem remains, that is, if some subjective mistakes were implanted in every human, they all would see this, at some point, as an objectivity. But still, objectivity can help someone out of many basic struggles.
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vampirism
Stranger
Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 8,120
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Re: Can truth be evil? [Re: Ravus]
#4473182 - 07/30/05 09:20 AM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ravus said:
Quote:
It's irrelevant what truth is, anyway Not like it exists.
That's the truth.
But the truth is you can learn to look beyond subjectivity. Because in the end, subjectivity really says nothing; all we know is this reality anyway, so why does it matter if it's subjective? It's absolute to us.
Look beyond subjectivity?
There's a problem with that idea. To be able to look or do anything, you must be subjective. If you take away subjectivity, you have nothing. Absolutely nothing exists unless you recognize its existence. If you trust the "objectivity" in science, all you're doing is taking someone else's word for it.
When you feel objective or look at things objectively, all you're doing is thinking in terms of absolutes; which are a total abstract anyway.
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Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker
Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
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Re: Can truth be evil? [Re: vampirism]
#4473341 - 07/30/05 11:17 AM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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There's a problem with that idea. To be able to look or do anything, you must be subjective.
There is no way to confirm anything outside the subjective reality though, so subjective compared to what? If all we can confirm is this "subjective" reality, doesn't that make this reality the only truth we can experience?
And in that case, each of the realities we experience solidifies to us, becoming absolute, as this reality is all that we know exists.
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If you take away subjectivity, you have nothing.
If you take away our reality, you possibly have nothing, because there's no way to know if there's anything else. Wouldn't that mean that our experience becomes absolute law if it's all there is?
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Absolutely nothing exists unless you recognize its existence.
We're just an ego floating through a reality created by the mind. "We" as the ego really have little control over what we recognize and don't recognize; the brain already does it for you by selecting what it shows to perceive and what it decides to filter out. Of course, this is scientific, and not able to be confirmed by our experience, since anything the brain filters out doesn't exist to us anyway. If indeed there is even anything out there to filter. Look at all the leaps of faith we must take, eh?
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When you feel objective or look at things objectively, all you're doing is thinking in terms of absolutes; which are a total abstract anyway.
Let's look at this simplified.
1) The only reality we can confirm is our own reality. We can confirm that we're experiencing it within this reality. 2) Anything outside of this reality is speculation, since it cannot be confirmed or experienced without becoming part of this reality. 3) Therefore, the only truth and substance that we know exists at all is this reality. 4) If this reality is all we can confirm exists, then it can't be subjective, because there's nothing else to compare it to to make it subjective. If it's all there is, then this reality is absolute, as there are no other differing viewpoints to make it subjective.
Reduced to the absurd, one could call it.
-------------------- So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Can truth be evil? [Re: Ravus]
#4473384 - 07/30/05 11:31 AM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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We're just an ego floating through a reality created by the mind. "We" as the ego really have little control over what we recognize and don't recognize; the brain already does it for you by selecting what it shows to perceive and what it decides to filter out. ________________________________________________________
How do you know for sure that we have little control over what we recogonize? While the brain seems to act as a filter. We don't necessarily know if it can by modified by things like psycheldelics. I also notice that emotionally we can filter things out of our consciousness, for instance ,putting trama into the unconsciousness, and at some better time retreiveing it into consciousness awareness. As one increases their ability to handle more of the chaos of consciousness, the filtering capacity of the brain may decrease. I'm of course just specualting here. But there may be some evidence for this. Even if "subjective"
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Re: Can truth be evil? [Re: MJF]
#4476840 - 07/31/05 10:29 AM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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If one equates the word TRUTH with the word REALITY, in the sense of Ultimate Reality (commonly called GOD), then one cannot attribute the dualistically separate categories of good and evil to that Reality.
The moral categories of good and evil translate pretty directly to those things that are pleasurable and painful to any given ego. That includes the collective ego or identity of one's family or clan or nation. GOD forbid that MY child be blown up by another's rifle grenade, but it's only collateral damage when it happens to someone who doesn't belong to MY people. The thing is, with one's ego expanded to cosmic proportion, the concept of my people can become expanded to all of humanity. MY child and all other children are 'US.' There is no longer 'US" and 'Them.' The anti-American terrorist is also one of US, as a member of humanity, but seeing that affiliation really requires a transcendental perspective that only GOD's grace can supply.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,061
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truth can't stand stll long enough to be tried in the court of good and evil
-------------------- _ 🧠 _
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