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OfflineMJF
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Can truth be evil?
    #4467169 - 07/29/05 01:46 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

and if so...can a lie be good?

I think so.


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Can truth be evil? [Re: MJF]
    #4467176 - 07/29/05 01:47 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

the truth is that there is no good or evil.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Can truth be evil? [Re: MJF]
    #4467186 - 07/29/05 01:48 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Evil and good are subjective. Supposedly the truth is not.

But where is evil? Evil exists in the eye of the person perceiving truth. So evidently if the truth does them harm, according to that person's subjective reality they'll think it evil. But this doesn't mean the truth itself is evil; it simply means the perception of it is.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineMJF
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Re: Can truth be evil? [Re: Ravus]
    #4467202 - 07/29/05 01:53 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

good point(s).


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Can truth be evil? [Re: MJF]
    #4467223 - 07/29/05 01:57 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Only if I think it is.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleELECTRIC
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Re: Can truth be evil? [Re: MJF]
    #4467609 - 07/29/05 03:43 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

"...can a lie be good?


I dunno? Can it be safe?


--------------------
Nos confido phasmatis occultus in vicis postulo nostrum tutela donatus futurus.


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InvisibleArp
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Re: Can truth be evil? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4467833 - 07/29/05 05:20 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
Only if I think it is.




:thumbup:

good and evil. truth and deception. just constructions

we are. and we arent. also constructions :grin:


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Can truth be evil? [Re: MJF]
    #4467974 - 07/29/05 07:22 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

> can a lie be good?

Blue is green.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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InvisibleLe_Canard
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Re: Can truth be evil? [Re: MJF]
    #4468055 - 07/29/05 08:28 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MJF said:
and if so...can a lie be good?

I think so.




Not per se, I don't believe. But then again, it's a matter of perception, I suppose. A white supremist can "believe" that his/her race is somehow superior to another, and can perceive that to be "truth"

By the same token, what would you say to a terminally ill child that he/she won't live much longer and never grow up? Sometimes the proverbial "white lie" can be good. Likewise, when a woman asks her boyfriend/husband "does this outfit make me look fat?". In this case, a little white can be a good thing, if not downright prudent.... :tongue:


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OfflineAvatarofAtavism
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Re: Can truth be evil? [Re: Le_Canard]
    #4468158 - 07/29/05 09:36 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

A lie can be useful.. functional.. directioned and well intentioned.

Truth is important to me. Truth - for better or worse - represents a solid point of reference from which to view all else. Even truth is contextual however. There is no absolute truth, it all becomes applications of logic. So, hit me with the truth any day, let me consider the morality of it.

Keep the truth from me if you wish, but you are keeping a monkey on your back. I am perfectly willing to take it for you.


--------------------
Do not despair, said the mystery. You will always have a friend in me. Untill the day you break my code. Then I will be gone, and you are free...
to manifest another.


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OfflineAvatarofAtavism
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Re: Can truth be evil? [Re: Le_Canard]
    #4468165 - 07/29/05 09:43 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

ToiletDuk said:
Quote:

MJF said:
and if so...can a lie be good?

I think so.




Not per se, I don't believe. But then again, it's a matter of perception, I suppose. A white supremist can "believe" that his/her race is somehow superior to another, and can perceive that to be "truth"

By the same token, what would you say to a terminally ill child that he/she won't live much longer and never grow up? Sometimes the proverbial "white lie" can be good. Likewise, when a woman asks her boyfriend/husband "does this outfit make me look fat?". In this case, a little white can be a good thing, if not downright prudent.... :tongue:




This is just the implicit nature of language.  What is being asked, is not what is in fact being asked.  "does this outfit make me look fat" is the same as "justify me, now".  There is no question of truth involved.  Our language is built upon these hidden assumptions, sometimes they are hidden within several layers.  Look at the language Darwin used, it is ludicrously full of such disinformation.


--------------------
Do not despair, said the mystery. You will always have a friend in me. Untill the day you break my code. Then I will be gone, and you are free...
to manifest another.


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OfflineThe_Hobbit
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Re: Can truth be evil? [Re: AvatarofAtavism]
    #4468175 - 07/29/05 09:53 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

AvatarofAtavism said:
This is just the implicit nature of language. What is being asked, is not what is in fact being asked. "does this outfit make me look fat" is the same as "justify me, now". There is no question of truth involved. Our language is built upon these hidden assumptions, sometimes they are hidden within several layers. Look at the language Darwin used, it is ludicrously full of such disinformation.



I hate that. Girls pull that stuff all the time. They say something, but it really means something else. If you don't act carefully, they think of you as inconsiderate for being purely logical about it. I've responded to "I'm fat" comments many times, disagreeing with the girl. I was just trying to make her feel better because I really didn't think she was fat, but she gave me an evil look for disputing her. I can't win. =(

I don't think there's such a thing as a good lie. There are lies that make things convienent, but you can never really justify lying. I would rather tell a sick little kid that he was about to die if that were the case.


--------------------
Smoking my hobbit leaf...
Please keep in mind that I am just a human being. Please read my posts carefully and interpret their meaning for yourself.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Can truth be evil? [Re: The_Hobbit]
    #4468178 - 07/29/05 09:59 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

only intentions can be "evil"-ish
i.e. with hatred
or with greed
or with delusion


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InvisibleLe_Canard
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Re: Can truth be evil? [Re: The_Hobbit]
    #4468192 - 07/29/05 10:06 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

hobbitcg said:

I hate that. Girls pull that stuff all the time. They say something, but it really means something else. If you don't act carefully, they think of you as inconsiderate for being purely logical about it. I've responded to "I'm fat" comments many times, disagreeing with the girl. I was just trying to make her feel better because I really didn't think she was fat, but she gave me an evil look for disputing her. I can't win. =(




Heh! You do have a point, there. We men are oftentimes just too dense to pick up what women really mean. And you're right - ya just can't win....  :grin:

Quote:

I don't think there's such a thing as a good lie. There are lies that make things convienent, but you can never really justify lying. I would rather tell a sick little kid that he was about to die if that were the case.




Morally, this is true. But things aren't that black and white, unfortunately.  Somtimes, brutal honesty can be very harmful to the feelings of others, paticularly if you care for that person.

As to my example, I suppose it would depend upon the emotional maturity of the child in question. Having said that, I would tell the parents the bad news, and leave it up to them to tell the kid or not.....


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OfflineAvatarofAtavism
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Re: Can truth be evil? [Re: Le_Canard]
    #4468203 - 07/29/05 10:15 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

ToiletDuk said:
Quote:

hobbitcg said:

I hate that. Girls pull that stuff all the time. They say something, but it really means something else. If you don't act carefully, they think of you as inconsiderate for being purely logical about it. I've responded to "I'm fat" comments many times, disagreeing with the girl. I was just trying to make her feel better because I really didn't think she was fat, but she gave me an evil look for disputing her. I can't win. =(




Heh! You do have a point, there. We men are oftentimes just too dense to pick up what women really mean. And you're right - ya just can't win....  :grin:

Quote:

I don't think there's such a thing as a good lie. There are lies that make things convienent, but you can never really justify lying. I would rather tell a sick little kid that he was about to die if that were the case.




Morally, this is true. But things aren't that black and white, unfortunately.  Somtimes, brutal honesty can be very harmful to the feelings of others, paticularly if you care for that person.

As to my example, I suppose it would depend upon the emotional maturity of the child in question. Having said that, I would tell the parents the bad news, and leave it up to them to tell the kid or not.....




It seems cruel to withhold information about a persons nature.

"If I had some food on my face, would you tell me?"
"If I contracted AIDS, would you tell me?"
"If I was retarded, would you tell me?"
"If I had X months to live, would you tell me?"

These differ in degree, but whatever the answer to the first, should apply to the rest.  You may feel compelled to sheild negative emotions, but you are sheilding reality...  Personally, I like to use mushrooms to break sheilds, espescially those that I am unaware of.


--------------------
Do not despair, said the mystery. You will always have a friend in me. Untill the day you break my code. Then I will be gone, and you are free...
to manifest another.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Can truth be evil? [Re: exclusive58]
    #4468364 - 07/29/05 11:37 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

exclusive58 said:
the truth is that there is no good or evil.




And yet even jack the ripper would mind about some things if you did to him. He would consider you bad for stealing his tool (whatever he used)

Wherever there is man, there is good and evil of some sort


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineLittleBen
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Re: Can truth be evil? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4468399 - 07/29/05 11:53 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Avatar was hitting an important point. To expand, lies dont change truth and telling 'the truth' doesnt make what you said true.


--------------------
Gaia, as you awaken, I heal myself. As I awaken, you are healed.


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InvisibleLe_Canard
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Re: Can truth be evil? [Re: AvatarofAtavism]
    #4468469 - 07/29/05 12:16 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

AvatarofAtavism said:

It seems cruel to withhold information about a persons nature.




Don't get me wrong here, if one of my friends is doing something harmful to themselves or really bugging me, I don't hesitate to say something....

"If I had some food on my face, would you tell me?"

I would, and I hope others would do me the same courtesy

"If I contracted AIDS, would you tell me?"

I would, provided you could handle it. Also, the earlier AIDS is detected, the more effective treatments can be. So that would be a favor, really

"If I was retarded, would you tell me?"

If you were retarded, would you be capable of understanding just exactly what that would entail?


"If I had X months to live, would you tell me?"

If you asked, and I knew I would. Personally, I really wouldn't want to know. Who wants a Sword of Damocles hanging over their heads...but that's just me.

These differ in degree, but whatever the answer to the first, should apply to the rest.


But is it so black and white?
Try this: The next time you're waited upon by an ugly clerk, just tell him or her "Jesus! You're hideous!". Or maybe when your GF sleeps over for the night, tell her first thing in the morning "You look like shit". I'd be interested to hear of the results. It IS, after all, reality, is it not?

Quote:

You may feel compelled to sheild negative emotions, but you are sheilding reality...




So the next time some jerk cuts in front of me in line and pisses me off, I should just call him an asshole? Well, that would be "real"....trouble, that is...

Quote:

Personally, I like to use mushrooms to break sheilds, espescially those that I am unaware of.




Most mind boggling revelations I've had on mushrooms sort of faded out when I sobered up. When I thought about it in (sober) retrospect, they seemed rather...nuts. Most of my breakthroughs (as it were) of this nature were reached stone cold sober....


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Can truth be evil? [Re: Le_Canard]
    #4469247 - 07/29/05 03:41 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Misrepresentation of the truth is misrepresentation of reality. Seperation from reality fucks our species and our evolution, and makes our experience of reality more difficult and full of needless effort. It is one thing to not know an aspect of reality, it is another thing altogether to have a misunderstanding of reality, as one will then feel the negative effects of having a definition of reality that reality does not conform to. :lol:

Truth is reality. Reality simply is, and it exists beyond any definition or adjective we assign to it. If we interact with others and do not reflect reality as it can directly be known and experienced, we further cloud the minds of everyone involved. Or something. :nut:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineSerioOria
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Re: Can truth be evil? [Re: exclusive58]
    #4471476 - 07/29/05 10:49 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

exclusive58 said:
the truth is that there is no good or evil.




only perception


--------------------
Live every day like it is your first
or
Live every day like it is your last
My ArT!!


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