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OfflineMJF
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Desire
    #4466669 - 07/29/05 12:05 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

What would be the difference in overcoming a desire and being in denial about desire?

And I'm not talking about a simple desire (like wanting to smoke a cigarette).

But something more like
((....well...for me...one that I want to overcome but think that I could never overcome but only be in denial about....))
the desire to know all.

((And why do I think that somehow this desire is more complex than the simpler cigarette one?))


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: Desire [Re: MJF]
    #4466706 - 07/29/05 12:15 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

How would you ever know if your desire (for knowing "all") was satisfied....?


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

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Offlinedeff
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Re: Desire [Re: MJF]
    #4466713 - 07/29/05 12:17 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Desire one desire only.

And make that the desire to have only one desire :laugh:

That is if you're seeking desirelessness, which many aren't. Of course you still have one desire, but this might sort of close in on itself :smile:

Otherwise, nothing wrong with desires at all. If you want to know all, then try to know as much as you can. Have fun and enjoy this fading perception :cool:


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OfflineMJF
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Re: Desire [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #4466799 - 07/29/05 12:39 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

PhanTomCat said:
How would you ever know if your desire (for knowing "all") was satisfied....?




This is the reason for wanting to give up this desire....for the fact that it can never be satisfied...and leads to frustration.


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OfflineMJF
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Re: Desire [Re: deff]
    #4466812 - 07/29/05 12:42 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

deff said:
Desire one desire only.

And make that the desire to have only one desire :laugh:

That is if you're seeking desirelessness, which many aren't. Of course you still have one desire, but this might sort of close in on itself :smile:

Otherwise, nothing wrong with desires at all. If you want to know all, then try to know as much as you can. Have fun and enjoy this fading perception :cool:




That sounds nice and looks good on my computer screen (and I thank you for the reply) but I can't see how desiring desirelessness leads to the removal of other desires (because I allready have that desire...or maybe I just think I do).


Edited by MJF (07/29/05 12:49 AM)


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Desire [Re: MJF]
    #4466818 - 07/29/05 12:43 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

What would be the difference in overcoming a desire and being in denial about desire?




Overcoming would be permanent (presumably) while denial would be temporary, and eventually the denial would end.

Unless the denial was permanent, in which case they'd be the same. Or if the overcoming was temporary, the overcoming would also be indistinguishable from denial as the person returned to their previous self.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineMJF
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Re: Desire [Re: Ravus]
    #4466841 - 07/29/05 12:48 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:Unless the denial was permanent, in which case they'd be the same.




I had that same thought.
But I don't want to believe that they can be the same because....you could reach an end with artificial means...which is like cheating....and...I don't know...can you cheat?


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Desire [Re: MJF]
    #4466860 - 07/29/05 12:51 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

What is cheating? If you reach the same goal by another method, wouldn't "cheating" simply be... a shortcut?


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineMJF
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Re: Desire [Re: Ravus]
    #4466957 - 07/29/05 01:10 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
What is cheating? If you reach the same goal by another method, wouldn't "cheating" simply be... a shortcut?




But I value the means more than the ends. I consider the means to be where everything is gained....so if you cheat (take a short-cut) you won't gain as much.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Desire [Re: MJF]
    #4466996 - 07/29/05 01:17 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I assume when you say gain as much, you're talking about experience? In that case, you're just making experience and knowledge the other goal, so even though you say it's the means you want to gain, it's still actually the goal you're after.

Though in that case I don't know if there's a short-cut. :shrug:


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineMJF
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Re: Desire [Re: Ravus]
    #4467049 - 07/29/05 01:25 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

You are right that experience and knowledge is the goal that I am after. But I want it all...and I want it all now....and that is what is keeping me from stepping closer to the goal because....
I want to take one gaint step (basically I wanna be God...) which I can't do...and have stopped taking the little ones that I need to.


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OfflinePuZuZu
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Re: Desire [Re: MJF]
    #4467273 - 07/29/05 02:09 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I desire many things and find it pure torture to ignore. Either put yourself through a torture for a period of time and laugh at yourself later on when you overcome it or just give in. Thats what desire is all about... appealing to the senses.

I don't have very good discipline on myself as you can tell lol. But I think its a good practice to listen to your body. I can say I'm sucessfully vegetarian, exercising, 'straight' edge, and not laying around in sleazy relationships. Desire is a weakness of mine and I wish I could find out what hurts and what doesn't.


--------------------
"If you worried about falling off the bike, you would never get on."
Lance Armstrong



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OfflineMJF
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Re: Desire [Re: PuZuZu]
    #4467447 - 07/29/05 02:51 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

but how does one appeal to the desire of being all knowing?
you can't.
and you become stuck.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Desire [Re: MJF]
    #4467474 - 07/29/05 02:58 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Have desires and just discipline them. Nothing happens without desire. You smoke because you desire the feel. You don't because you desire your physical health. Whats the difference as either action is motivated by a desire?

It's what gets us out of bed in the morning. We can't escape it.

If one quits desiring its because they desire not to desire.

That said, just get it's motivational power to work for your ideals. Use it or be used by it.

I remember a time when I thought it would smart just to want nothing. Guess what I got? Nothing. That was dumb. So I decided it would be smart to allow myself to have again. Glad I did!

Spiritual types talk about surrender and the ils of resistance. If God/Source/Creator is all things then surrendering to God/Source/Creator is surrendering to all things.

Decide what you idealize and then surrender to it. Manifesting becomes an easy snap of the fingers when you do that. When we are manifesting we are creating and being like the Creator and in those moments can feel at one with source At one ment atonement.

I know some seek to realize their nothingness yet they never consider that what they will realize if they achieve it is "nothing".

If someone putting on a pretense tells me they are satisfied with "nothing" I would call B.S. on them becomes they have not achieved nothingness. A state of satisfaction is something.

If someone tells me they are dissatisfied with nothing, then I will know they mastered it.

Some think of God/Source/Creator as the great void. Experiencing the void is the same as experiencing lack or want or desire. We only experience those things when there is a perceived void. It never feels good either does it?

Nature tends to fill voids and acknowledging voids is the place to start. If you are satisfied with a void, you don't have one because your satisfaction has it fulfilled.

Many get stuck there just acknowledging the void and do not move on to the next phase of allowance and surrender to its being fulfilled.

Think of how frustration works. There is a tensing up and then a release, contraction and expansion. That's the heart beat of the divine pumping creative life force energy throughout existence. It lives and breaths through contractions and expansions of energy.

If your heart or lungs stop contracting and expanding, you will die. Same with the "human" spirit. To stay stuck contracted or expanded will kill the spirit within. Desire and surrender is contraction and expansion- CREATION at play.

It's a powerful energy force to work with. Just be choosy about what it is you desire and then allow yourself to have and surrender to it and you'll be as close to Godlike as you can get in the self realized sense.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleELECTRIC
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Re: Desire [Re: MJF]
    #4467642 - 07/29/05 03:55 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

"...well...for me...the desire to know all..."


Sounds more like a complex challenge rather than a simple desire.


--------------------
Nos confido phasmatis occultus in vicis postulo nostrum tutela donatus futurus.


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Desire [Re: ELECTRIC]
    #4468520 - 07/29/05 12:30 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

"If someone tells me they are dissatisfied with nothing, then I will know they mastered it."

What if this dissatisfaction is the push away from the source (void) and into material illusion. What if true bliss, contrary to all impulses and desires, was only found through absolute surrender?

(seriously, I dunno :cool:)


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Desire [Re: deff]
    #4468728 - 07/29/05 01:32 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Well, I started thinking about it methodically, looking at the mechanics involved retracing steps. Before you can surrender to something, there must be a state of resistance. That resistance is a lack of allowing.

You'll see it if you look at it this way. To actually surrender to the void/all that is or micro of the macro holographically speaking, you first having to be putting up resistance or surrender is an oxy moron.

The only other time we surrender to something if not resisting it is when we are attacking it. Even if in attack mode, to be there we have to be in fear we is still a state of resiting something.

Either way, we put up resistance or attack against an non ideal because we have an opposing ideal. If and when people finally give way and surrender, they have put so much emphasis on what resisting or attacking that the surrender goes to non ideal. How often do people think to surrender to the ideal in the first place?

The ones who's lives seem to go their way effortlessly do, they have the formula down to a science. They are at one with the flow of the force.

I am looking at how the energy flows before during and after resistance and release. That is the same as contraction and expansion. We know that's how natural creation works and so the source of creation naturally contracts and expands.

Here is an example of how to apply this formula now that I have it in words and not through intuitive accidental use.

Last night i went to bed late and wanted (desired) to sleep. There was much mental noise and I couldn't fall asleep. The more I resisted the noise and wanted to sleep, the worse it got. Then I remembered this post and the formula. I first thought to surrender to the noise (what I was resisting) to stop the resistance and then realized that's ass backwards to the formula.

I thought, sleep is what I want so sleep is what I must allow myself to have and surrender to that. That's the last thought I had before I drifted off in a snap.

The point is that desire was there, the desire to sleep. To be alive and avoid desire, even if its just a state of having casual non attached preferences, that element is in the mix.

I realize desire sounds like a strong word and casual non attached preferences can take its place. That's how it is for me.

MJF was struggling with the idea of desire and was also desiring to experience the God/Creator Self. So, I spelled it out for him.

Lets use your words of void and bliss. The void being the all that is makes it the same thing. The words just polarize it into two when its one and the same.

In the case of wanting sleep, I was in a lack of sleep, a void pit was there related to the being in the sleep state. Resistance to the void was in play as i danced around it wanting in. I was fighting the mental noise. Had I surrendered to the noise, it would have overtaken me. When I thought to surrender to sleep, where the void was, it over took me.

That you should be able to apply to your understanding of surrendering to the void and bliss. I have the counter of what most people do which is surrender to what they were putting up resistance against that kept them from fulfilling the void and experiencing the bliss of fulfillment with it.

If I were to say I was satisfied with the void, I would have been accepting it being there, the lack of sleep. I wasn't. I was dissatisfied with it. Only then, was I able to actually have something to surrender to. Only when the void was fulfilled with sleep did I become satisfied. Then, I did not have nothing, I had what I wanted, which was sleep, I had something.

Think on this for a while not philosophically but experimentally or energetically. Then, PUT IT TO THE TEST.

Perhaps you already live in perpetual surrender to what it is you desire and so , its so right in front of your nose, you can't see it.

Many people seem to live in almost perpetual resistance or attack against what is keeping them from there desire as they dance around an unfulfilled void where the bliss is.

Sorry this is wordy. I wanted to show what i am saying in a handful of lights for more to see if they care to understand it. Do more then that. Put it to the test the next time you feel in want of something or in a state of tension, attack or resistance.

Def, all I was saying with what you quoted is that void used in the sense of an empty pit is an unfulfilled place. if you are fulfilled with bliss then you are in a state of being at one with the all that is. Semantics!


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Re: Desire [Re: MJF]
    #4468785 - 07/29/05 01:49 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MJF said:
What would be the difference in overcoming a desire and being in denial about desire?

And I'm not talking about a simple desire (like wanting to smoke a cigarette).

But something more like
((....well...for me...one that I want to overcome but think that I could never overcome but only be in denial about....))
the desire to know all.

((And why do I think that somehow this desire is more complex than the simpler cigarette one?))




sure in the 4 noble truths you see that desire leads to suffering since things are impermanent.

in meditation you may find that any desire arising is a defilement of the practice - but you accept it and continue because that is the practice too.

someone might say "wanting the practice to be perfect is a defilement or a bad desire... you should have no desires at all ... see how imperfect your meditation is!"

that would be unfortunate advice.

desire arises and passes away.

that is a good way to deal with it.

you can get better at moving in this medium (mind) in which all things are arising and passing away. then you are free as a fish. was there a different liberation you were after?


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Desire [Re: MJF]
    #4473059 - 07/30/05 08:53 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MJF said:
What would be the difference in overcoming a desire and being in denial about desire?

And I'm not talking about a simple desire (like wanting to smoke a cigarette).

But something more like
((....well...for me...one that I want to overcome but think that I could never overcome but only be in denial about....))
the desire to know all.

((And why do I think that somehow this desire is more complex than the simpler cigarette one?))




the difference:

"are you going to eat that? cause if you are not, I'll eat it"
-"yes I'm going to eat it"
"ok, but if you feel like you can't, just let me know"
-"ok, enough already"
"ok, I don't really want it anyway"
-"yea right"
"no really"
-"ok"
"I tell you I don't want it!!!"
-"no? you can have it, I'm not hungry anymore, here you go"
"really??!! thanks!!"


or..


"I'm stuffed, can you eat this?"
"I can't I'm stuffed too, If you offered it an hour ago..."


overcoming the desire (by means of endulging it or simply turning it off) leaves you without the desire. Even if you are offered a direct way of endulging it, you don't give a shit.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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