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Offlinestvip
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Opioids from sources other than poppies and kratom (not pharmaceuticals)
    #4465526 - 07/28/05 07:29 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

As the inquisitive rubber soul knows, opioids are ubiquitous in the living world (from protozoa onwards, though I recall a vague mention of the fungi as participants in this feast) - the classical opiate morphine is present not only in the poppies of yore, but is synthesized all throughout the mammalian kingdom (humans too, you scheduled I cretins!), as well as amongst various worms (and probably elsewhere); other opioids - from the (nowadays) well-known kratom, to various other plants, amphibian secretions and even present in our basic ethnobotanical food forms (milk and grain proteins and peptides).

So - the question: does anyone have any experience with growing, harvesting or using these?
Personally, I've just ordered a good amount of dalea purpurea seeds (not all locations worldwide have ready access to kratom plants); I'll be happy to report on any progress made.


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OfflineWysefool
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Re: Opioids from sources other than poppies and kratom (not pharmaceuticals) [Re: stvip]
    #4465796 - 07/28/05 08:42 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

No I haven't heard of any other sources but I'm interested too. :grin:

Good luck with that dalea purpurea. What kind of conditions does it like? Sounds like a nice way to have a stealth opiate garden.


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InvisibleLocus
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Re: Opioids from sources other than poppies and kratom (not pharmaceuticals) [Re: stvip]
    #4465830 - 07/28/05 08:51 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I'd imagine i would know about any other sources, or any sources that were substantial enough to go through with the process.. and i can't really think of anything of the top of my head right now so hmm.. don't think so. But i'd be interested if there is :smile:


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Offlinestvip
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Re: Opioids from sources other than poppies and kratom (not pharmaceuticals) [Re: Locus]
    #4465924 - 07/28/05 09:11 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

I'd imagine i would know about any other sources, or any sources that were substantial enough to go through with the process..




Well, the idea is to break new ground here, not using something you can find in Erowid. After some research you'll find all of nature is brimming with readily available opioids. We're probably interested only in plants (though some phyllomedusa bicolor frogs are quite attractive fellows). Then there's the need to screen for bioavailability, potency, ease of cultivation and yield. I may have jumped the gun by choosing dalea purpurea (it was one of the first somewhat promising candidates I've encountered, but I've since found many more) but it's a nice plant nevertheless (nice looking, and symbiotocally fixes nitrogen, which can also be used by other plants).
There's much more than kratom waiting to be discovered and replace the sadly pilloried poppy. Also, sooner or later someone will find an easy way to favorably manipulate all those opioid peptides in milk, and possibly grains. Outlawing by scheduling can only go so far.


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OfflineMitchnast
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Re: Opioids from sources other than poppies and kratom (not pharmaceuticals) [Re: stvip]
    #4466230 - 07/28/05 10:35 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)



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Offlinenamaste
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Re: Opioids from sources other than poppies and kratom (not pharmaceuticals) [Re: stvip]
    #4466239 - 07/28/05 10:37 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Club-Foot Moss

Horse Chestnut


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OfflineMitchnast
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Re: Opioids from sources other than poppies and kratom (not pharmaceuticals) [Re: Mitchnast]
    #4466281 - 07/28/05 10:48 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Horse Chestnut you say?
ill look into that but i beleive its quite toxic


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Offlinestvip
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Re: Opioids from sources other than poppies and kratom (not pharmaceuticals) [Re: Mitchnast]
    #4467790 - 07/29/05 04:48 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Lactuca virosa may be a nice vendors' fad, but there's no confirmation of any significant opioid activity, just minor analgesia.
Neither do I see evidence for Horse Chestnut, or Club-Foot Moss (if by the latter you mean lycopodium).
Even if those did, I'm not looking for just a list of opioid-containing plants (I've already found dozens), but rather actual experience with growing, harvesting or using (or someone willing to try those). Another exception is if someone has researched a particular plant and found it to satisfy desirable qualities (urban cultivability, safety, yield, etc.)
Poppies are wonderful plants, not only as a source of opium, but their cultivation is illegal in major parts of the world, their product is illegal with grave implications almost everywhere, and they're annual plants, whose product is generally harvested at the end of life of the organism (unless someone would try using the "iceolation" method on leaves of growing plants - morphine producing lactifiers are present in leaves from the first few days, and the alkaloid mix is identical to that of regular opium).

Eventually, if people pursue this path, rather than continuing to rely on the DEA's scheduled list as a Good Drug Guide, I believe opioids will become like DMT - too many sources to realistically outlaw all the originating organisms. (i.e: the ultimate product might be illegal, but there will be no control of their omnipresent sources).

People must organize to overthrow the yoke of oppressive regimes. Currently, not enough of that is going around.


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InvisibleYoung_but_cool
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Re: Opioids from sources other than poppies and kratom (not pharmaceuticals) [Re: stvip]
    #4468014 - 07/29/05 07:43 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Maybe some experiments with myrhh? With you being in Israel it makes perfect sense :wink:. An extract from the resin or essential oil perhaps? Don't get your hopes up though.

http://www.archaeology.org/9605/newsbriefs/myrrh.html


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Offlinestvip
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Re: Opioids from sources other than poppies and kratom (not pharmaceuticals) [Re: Young_but_cool]
    #4468574 - 07/29/05 12:46 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Ah, myrrh - winner of the most idiosyncratically spelled word in the English dictionary contest (the Hebrew pronounciation is 'mor').
I can't seem to find any additional pertinent information beyond that blurb, however. Also, it's relatively expensive.

Perhaps if we'd organize some kind of distributive experiment: each member will commit to cultivating a certain species, then self-experiment and/or send samples to other members. Only if safety data is satisfactory, of course. I myself am limited by spatial and monetary considerations - with all the other projects going around, I don't think I'll be able to grow much more than the daleas this year.
What say you? I'm finding some very intersting plant candidates.


Edited by stvip (07/30/05 10:43 AM)


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Offlinepod3
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- [Re: stvip]
    #4470268 - 07/29/05 06:50 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

-


Edited by pod3 (10/26/06 01:05 PM)


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Offlinestvip
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Re: Opioids from sources other than poppies and kratom (not pharmaceuticals) [Re: pod3]
    #4470391 - 07/29/05 07:14 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Ah, I see that a synonym is huperzia selago. With this I am somewhat familiar. The plant contains potent cholinesterase inhibitors (huperzine A is one of them). I see nothing in the scientific literature about opioids, and even if such are present, the plant clearly does not satisfy minimal criteria (safety, foremost).
Anyhow, I ordered seeds of another candidate (hint: the genus already has a famous legal opioid-containing member).


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Offlinepod3
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- [Re: stvip]
    #4470439 - 07/29/05 07:21 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

-


Edited by pod3 (10/26/06 01:03 PM)


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Offlinestvip
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Re: Opioids from sources other than poppies and kratom (not pharmaceuticals) [Re: pod3]
    #4470478 - 07/29/05 07:29 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

As for Horse Chestnut - I know not whence the notion that it contains opioids. Anyhow, a large, slow-growing tree isn't going to replace the poppy in our hearts, minds and windowsills.


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Offlinepod3
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- [Re: stvip]
    #4481129 - 08/01/05 03:51 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

-


Edited by pod3 (10/26/06 01:04 PM)


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Offlinestvip
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Re: Opioids from sources other than poppies and kratom (not pharmaceuticals) [Re: pod3]
    #4481866 - 08/01/05 07:14 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Hmm. Considering the amount of discussion concerning kratom and poppies, and the popularity of other opioids, I thought this topic would garner more interest.


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Offlinestvip
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Re: Opioids from sources other than poppies and kratom (not pharmaceuticals) [Re: stvip]
    #4494057 - 08/04/05 09:15 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Is there anyone here growing salvia nemorosa in their gardens?
According to in vivo studies, it has definite opioidergic properties. However, I believe it's not clear whether this is mediated by direct receptor affinity or indirectly (several salvia species are cholinergic, which is quite nice in itself). On the other hand, there's good reason to speculate salvia species might very well contain mu agonists (more details about that can be had). Due to this uncertainty, it is far from being one of the best candidates I've found, but it is one of the easiest species to acquire (which is in stark contrast to those others), so it might be a good starting place; also, it belongs to a genus which is very widely used for medicinal purposes and is generally considered safe, and specifically for this species, maximum tolerated and lethal doses were established in mice, so there's a good safety margin.

(US residents can purchase a plant through Ebay rather cheaply)


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InvisibleYoung_but_cool
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Re: Opioids from sources other than poppies and kratom (not pharmaceuticals) [Re: stvip]
    #4494093 - 08/04/05 09:39 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

stvip said:
Hmm. Considering the amount of discussion concerning kratom and poppies, and the popularity of other opioids, I thought this topic would garner more interest.




Well, it is an interesting topic. I think the problem is that a plant with good opioid activity (at least if active orally in realistic amounts) would have gained some sort of cultural significance, just like every caffeine carrying plant has become central to every culture where such a plant is found. Opium and kratom are well known and utilized ethnobotanically, I'm not aware of any other. Wild lettuce , corydalis and prickly poppy etc just don't cut it. That is not to say there aren't any other good opioid plants, great discoveries are made sometimes. Its chocking for example that Pedicularis densiflora is unexplored territory pharmacologically when it's such an effective sedative (not recreational though), good tasting and visually attractive. Nothing is known about this plant.

The salvia nemorosa lead is interesting though. Any links to any studies? Do you know which variety they tested?


Edited by Young_but_cool (08/04/05 10:35 AM)


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Offlinestvip
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Re: Opioids from sources other than poppies and kratom (not pharmaceuticals) [Re: Young_but_cool]
    #4494189 - 08/04/05 10:42 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

I think the problem is that a plant with good opioid activity (at least if active orally in realistic amounts) would have gained some sort of cultural significance




That was how I was able to find the vast majority of the candidates - studies done on plants used by various cultures for analgesia (I am evaluating more based on my own research and speculation). They were then screened according to whether analgesia was central or peripheral, and whether it was reversible by naloxone. Candidates showing signficiant toxicity were discarded, as well as those that seemed unsustainable. This preliminary screening led to dozens of candidates. Per the comments in my previous posts, those first criteria are not explicitly indicative of opioid receptor affinity, but it does leave promising candidates. Several of these have additional research more indicative of direct opioid activation.
Believe me, there are several very interesting and promising ones out there.
By the way, opioids are everywhere - not just in plants, though those are probably the most convenient source (except for ordering pure chemicals, some of which are unscheduled).

Quote:

Opium and kratom is well known and utilized ethnobotanically, I'm not aware of any other. Wild lettuce , corydalis and prickly poppy etc just don't cut it.




"Ethnobotanical" vendors' catalogs isn't exactly the cutting-edge of diversity and research. They're just the ones who are capitalizing (through quite exorbitant prices) on the final research results of others. There's still much, much more to be found.
Mind you, we are extremely ignorant even about the ethnobotany of existing modern non-Western cultures, let alone various extinct ones.

Quote:

Its chocking for example that Pedicularis densiflora is unexplored territory pharmacologically when it's such an effective sedative (not recreational though), good tasting and visually attractive. Nothing is known about this plant.




Well, there are a few studies on the pharmacology of various species of the genus.

Quote:

The salvia nemorosa lead is interesting though. Any links to any studies? Do you know which variety they tested?




Unfortunately, the researchers didn't mention the variety (though it's probable they used a local indigenous culture from Iran).

http://razi.ams.ac.ir/AIM/0032/hosseinzadeh0032.html


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InvisibleYoung_but_cool
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Re: Opioids from sources other than poppies and kratom (not pharmaceuticals) [Re: stvip]
    #4494248 - 08/04/05 11:09 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Hehe, I didn't use the term "ethnobotanically" refering to vendors, rather in the "folk use" sense.

Quote:

Well, there are a few studies on the pharmacology of various species of the genus.




They haven't studied it hard enough though, I haven't seen anyting conclusive. Going by the effectivness of the plant one would imagine the big pharm corps would be all over it, luckily that doesn't seem to have happened yet.


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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics >> The Ethnobotanical Garden

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