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InvisibleUlysees
Power of Lard

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
Dolphins...
    #446360 - 11/04/01 03:53 AM (22 years, 3 months ago)

I had some thoughts on dolphins the other day, which might of course be total garbage, but they went something like this:
Dolphins are in fact as highly evolved as us (or moreso mentally). I don't think this is much disputed.
Back in the primordial soup, desciscions were made, and our forefathers decided to leave. Their brothers decided to stay in the sea. (I guess it wasn't a descision, but anyhow...)
Life evolved in both the sea and on land, long story short, we're here, dolphins are there.
There are some differences between living in the sea and living on land... Being on land permitted us to develop limbs, that we eventually began to use to modify our environments. The dolphins however could not. They need their fins and tails to move around efficiently, and they need to be pretty large to retain heat in the cold water. Thus, things like arms and thumbs are not available to them, and they cannot modify their environments. Despite those setbacks (as we would consider them) the dolphins continued to evolve mentally.
So my (possibly bogus) conclusion is this: Dolphins are like our cousins who ended up being hindered by their actual environment. (If you were to put one guy in the rain forest and one guy in the desert, you'd see the same results. The guy in the desert is at a natural disadvantage.)

Or, maybe it's more like this: Intelligent life just happened to evolve in both land and sea environments. The same disadvantages applied to the dolphins (locomotion, warmth, etc. as well as the added burden of not living in the atmosphere you breathe.)

What is the point of this? Buy dolphin friendly tuna. ;)


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InvisibleRevelation

 User Gallery

Registered: 08/04/01
Posts: 6,135
Loc: heart cave
Re: Dolphins... [Re: Ulysees]
    #446397 - 11/04/01 06:32 AM (22 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah..I think you're on the the right track with that theory. I just finished reading this book called "Nothing in this book is true but it's exactly how things are" and in it it says something about how dolphins and whales are more highly evolved than us. It also says that dolphins have "human hands" inside their fins.

I've always wondered what a blue whale thinks about. I would really like to swim along side one, maybe it would let me know.


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Edited by Revelation (11/04/01 09:27 AM)

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OfflineKeepAskingTime
addict
Registered: 05/14/01
Posts: 596
Loc: Central PA
Last seen: 19 years, 2 months
Re: Dolphins... [Re: Ulysees]
    #446542 - 11/04/01 11:16 AM (22 years, 3 months ago)

Yes, I think so. Btw Ulysses, read Shroomism's posts, he says Cetaceans(dlophins, whales, etc.) are highly evolved also.
I'm going to be ordering "Nothing..." very soon.....most concepts true....a lot of Tool's meaning can be found in that book too.


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I'm praying for infinite lapdances in heaven and an infinite supply of cocaine to snort out of Angelina Jolie's ass crack.

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InvisibleAdom
Totally Nude
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Registered: 09/30/01
Posts: 10,877
Loc: Way Up North
Re: Dolphins... [Re: KeepAskingTime]
    #446575 - 11/04/01 11:42 AM (22 years, 3 months ago)

I kept hearing about it and hearing about it so today finally I ordered "Nothing in th.......", and now I am eagerly awaiting its arrival.

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InvisibleRevelation

 User Gallery

Registered: 08/04/01
Posts: 6,135
Loc: heart cave
Re: Dolphins... [Re: Adom]
    #446636 - 11/04/01 12:51 PM (22 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah it's a great book, now i'm just waiting for the sequel "something in this book is true".....


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OfflineTimeleech
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Registered: 10/04/01
Posts: 590
Loc: Norway
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Re: Dolphins... [Re: Revelation]
    #446721 - 11/04/01 02:27 PM (22 years, 3 months ago)

Those books are flipped! Just remember the title while reading them... :)


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Eternally boggled, flummoxed, bewildered and surprised.
theophagy.org

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Offlinegnrm23
Carpal Tunnel
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Re: Dolphins... [Re: Ulysees]
    #446741 - 11/04/01 02:54 PM (22 years, 3 months ago)

well, actually dolphins & whales evolved on the land like the other mammals & eventually decided to move back into the sea...
(& it is quite possible that human ancestors had aquatic phase a few million years ago during a prolonged african drought...)
~~~
then again, maybe YHWH did make the plants and animals druing that first week, & formed man from the dust of the earth & breathed in adam'snostrils for that special touch...
or maybe aliens plopped us and other homonid races & cetaceans, etc from various other star systems from within the galactic community...
or coyote and the other animals in council came up with man as a joke...
or brahma is dreaming us all in his sleep...
or the people came from the drops of fluid spilled during the struggle between the twim brothers of the sky...
etc, etc...
~~~
anyway, if ontology recapitulates phylogeny in truth, our cousins in the sea have their offspring, during their embryonic journey, go through a state in which the cetacean fetus closely resembles that of the primate fetus... and continues to develop beyond that stage... mmm, food for thought, no?
and as to human ancestors spending a few hundred thousand years in the ocean shallows/estuaries (certainly time enough for noticable evolutionary alterations of primate phenotypic expression due to genomic selection of "desirable traits"...) well several human behavioral and physiological differences between homonid & pongid lines could be explained by a few hundred generations spent splashing in shallow waters (for an interesting exploration of this topic, please see _the descent of woman_ )
~~~
splish, splash, i was takin' a bath...
~~~


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old enough to know better
not old enough to care

Edited by gnrm23 (11/05/01 08:23 AM)

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OfflineD_Tox
Boddhisattva

Registered: 10/31/01
Posts: 239
Loc: Lab 23
Last seen: 21 years, 19 days
Re: Dolphins... [Re: gnrm23]
    #446902 - 11/04/01 05:50 PM (22 years, 3 months ago)

they are more socially advanced too!

They don't go to war and murder each other.


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D_Tox

to understand other people….to be aware
to understand animals….to be a decent person
to understand plants….. to be a refined individual
to understand the mushroom…to be enlightened

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InvisibleUlysees
Power of Lard

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
Re: Dolphins... [Re: D_Tox]
    #446906 - 11/04/01 05:55 PM (22 years, 3 months ago)

I'm moving to the ocean. :)


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InvisibleMeltingPenguin
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/29/01
Posts: 2,138
Loc: new england
Re: Dolphins... [Re: D_Tox]
    #446909 - 11/04/01 05:57 PM (22 years, 3 months ago)

What are you guys talking about? dolphins rape eachother all the time, they are in fact rape eachother more than people.


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Growing anything is good for the soul

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Anonymous

Re: Dolphins... [Re: MeltingPenguin]
    #447803 - 11/05/01 02:29 PM (22 years, 3 months ago)

Dolphins know nothing but love. Rape? I think not.
Dolphins and Humans are the only beings on Earth that have sex for pleasure.
I must keep this short as I am not on my computer and will still be away for a while :)
Dolphins are descendants from a race in the Sirius star system. They are the holders of the Earth's wisdom and history, and have stayed on Earth in order to help guide mankind into the next level. Have fun in the ocean.

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InvisibleIshmael
enthusiast

Registered: 10/28/99
Posts: 224
Re: Dolphins... [Re: ]
    #447866 - 11/05/01 03:29 PM (22 years, 3 months ago)

Actually, I think dolphins (a specific species of Odontocetes) evolved from a dog-like creature (ungulates) that was the progenator of whales and hippos as well. I understand the desire to diefy a creature as elegantly evolved as dolphins, but they're just animals...like human beings. But just because something occured naturally through a process of this planet doesn't mean that it's any less of a marvel. We shouldn't need to attribute some vauge extra-planar origin to things in order to find wonder in them. Finding wonder in our world is the essence of mysticism.

Ish

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OfflineTimeleech
addict
Registered: 10/04/01
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Re: Dolphins... [Re: Ulysees]
    #448011 - 11/05/01 06:03 PM (22 years, 3 months ago)

There is a Simpsons episode that explains this quite well.
The dolphins originally lived on land, humans in water, but humans chased the dolphins into the seas and took over the land for themselves...

Or if you prefer to have some more mystery read Hitchikers Guide to the Galaxy.

But seriously, it's possible.


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Eternally boggled, flummoxed, bewildered and surprised.
theophagy.org

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OfflineAxiom420
ADDICT

Registered: 03/22/01
Posts: 202
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Re: Dolphins... [Re: Ulysees]
    #448191 - 11/05/01 08:16 PM (22 years, 3 months ago)

yeah, dolphins....
they're aliens.
we all know it.
just 'cause they don't have space ships don't mean nothin'.


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"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen."
- Albert Einstein

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InvisibleUlysees
Power of Lard

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
Re: Dolphins... [Re: Axiom420]
    #448330 - 11/05/01 10:02 PM (22 years, 3 months ago)

Well, I'm more inclined to agree with Ishmael... I doubt they are aliens (I wouldn't rule it out I guess) but the possibility of that seems slim... I would say that there is a higher possibility that all life originated from something alien than dolphins being aliens. I put a lot of faith in the evolution theory, I'm sort of combining religious theology with science... I don't see any reason why dolphins would be aliens. I'm don't doubt that there are aliens somewhere, I just doubt that they are dolphins (but I guess I could be wrong. When I think about it I consider it a novel idea, and entirely within the realm of possibilities.)


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Edited by Ulysees (11/05/01 10:02 PM)

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Offlinezetek
enthusiast

Registered: 04/28/01
Posts: 210
Loc: United States
Last seen: 21 years, 10 months
Re: Dolphins... [Re: Ulysees]
    #450501 - 11/07/01 04:28 PM (22 years, 3 months ago)


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InvisibleUlysees
Power of Lard

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
Re: Dolphins... [Re: zetek]
    #450554 - 11/07/01 05:10 PM (22 years, 3 months ago)

Thanks for the link zetek. These things (which I had never heard before) might negate a few things I was pondering. Still, perhaps not. My ideas were of course just ponderings. I wonder how that affects the alien idea? Are these studies linked directly to dolphins as well? Perhaps dolphins could be to whales as what "humanoid" aliens are to us.


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OfflineJuggles
old hand
Registered: 02/07/01
Posts: 858
Loc: Massachusetts
Last seen: 20 years, 12 days
Re: Dolphins... [Re: Ulysees]
    #452192 - 11/08/01 08:24 PM (22 years, 3 months ago)

I have a question - If dolphins are as smart as us, doesn't that mean if we took a dolhpin from birth and communicated with it like you would a kid (except using a machine or a language that enables it to hear us and us to hear it) then shouldn't it grow up to have the intelligence of a human?


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If sometimes you feel yourself little, useless, and depressed, always remember that you were once the fastest and most victorious sperm out of hundreds of millions.

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InvisibleUlysees
Power of Lard

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
Re: Dolphins... [Re: Juggles]
    #452229 - 11/08/01 08:48 PM (22 years, 3 months ago)

I suppose they could, but I haven't heard of a machine able to do that... I think you first have to learn their language, break it down, and then you might be able to program it and "emit" it to the dolphin. They work on a totally different system than us. It's like when you get the internet through a phone line. Your computer is totally digital, and phones are analog (or something like that). You need a modem in between to change the signals over the phone line into a readable (off/on) message your computer can read.


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OfflineJuggles
old hand
Registered: 02/07/01
Posts: 858
Loc: Massachusetts
Last seen: 20 years, 12 days
Re: Dolphins... [Re: Ulysees]
    #452235 - 11/08/01 08:52 PM (22 years, 3 months ago)

But if we had them from birth don't you think we could teach them some kind of language that we both understand (like how we taught gorillas sign language)


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If sometimes you feel yourself little, useless, and depressed, always remember that you were once the fastest and most victorious sperm out of hundreds of millions.

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InvisibleUlysees
Power of Lard

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
Re: Dolphins... [Re: Juggles]
    #452258 - 11/08/01 09:14 PM (22 years, 3 months ago)

Wellll, Gorrilas are primates, very closely related to humans. I don't thing dolphins are quite as similar to us. We can "train" them to do things, lots of things, but I don't know how easy it would be to get them to "talk" back. Still, they are very intelligent, perhaps we are just too stupid to talk to them. (I believe their communication methods are supierior to ours, right? Maybe they're waiting for us to evolve to their level.) I don't know, I don't have much expertise in this area. :)


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Offlinegnrm23
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/29/99
Posts: 6,488
Loc: n. e. OH, USSA
Last seen: 4 months, 24 days
Re: Dolphins... [Re: Ulysees]
    #452321 - 11/08/01 10:09 PM (22 years, 3 months ago)

bookwyrm sez:
mind in the sea
man and dolphin (lilly)


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old enough to know better
not old enough to care

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InvisibleGrenade01
Registered: 09/25/01
Posts: 382
Loc: USA
Re: Dolphins... *DELETED* [Re: gnrm23]
    #452412 - 11/08/01 11:45 PM (22 years, 3 months ago)

Post deleted by Grenade01

Reason for deletion: .

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OfflineSpiralMix
journeyman
Registered: 10/09/01
Posts: 51
Loc: California
Last seen: 18 years, 5 months
Re: Dolphins... [Re: Grenade01]
    #452575 - 11/09/01 06:12 AM (22 years, 3 months ago)

Grenade01:
You're describing consciousness... which can be molded like a sculpture. Too bad humans are the sculptors molding the poor defenseless baby dolphins that will do anything to get a bite of food.


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Reflecting ourselves through Unity to escape the claws of Duality and become the
creator that experiences creation.

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InvisibleUlysees
Power of Lard

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
Re: Dolphins... [Re: SpiralMix]
    #452994 - 11/09/01 02:04 PM (22 years, 3 months ago)

There's Dolphins in a mall near here, and eventually they have become pissed. They're tired of screwing around everyday in front of crowds of rednecks. I believe they're dying, either through depression or suicide. These dolphins are stuck in a pool in a mall on the prairies, it's pretty sick.


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Anonymous

Re: Dolphins... [Re: Ulysees]
    #453947 - 11/10/01 01:24 PM (22 years, 3 months ago)

In reply to:

I suppose they could, but I haven't heard of a machine able to do that... I think you first have to learn their language, break it down, and then you might be able to program it and "emit" it to the dolphin. They work on a totally different system than us. It's like when you get the internet through a phone line. Your computer is totally digital, and phones are analog (or something like that). You need a modem in between to change the signals over the phone line into a readable (off/on) message your computer can read.




It's called Telepathy, and it is a Universal Language. Mind to Mind communication, no conscious filters or limiting verbal interpretations.

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Dolphins... [Re: ]
    #460236 - 11/16/01 07:57 AM (22 years, 3 months ago)

It's called Telepathy, and it is a Universal Language

Except no one is able to reliably demonstrate it, which is why we have cell phones, e-mail, letters, FAX machines, smoke signals, semaphores, etc.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleStonerwitch
oilrig
Registered: 11/20/00
Posts: 147
Loc: England/Finland Etc.
Re: Dolphins... [Re: Ulysees]
    #460302 - 11/16/01 09:34 AM (22 years, 3 months ago)

I don't think there's enough physical or mental stimulus in the sea to allow these creatures to evolve beyond a certain point.
Especially if you're lacking limbs.

Very few things in the nature happen in vain, that is, in the long run.
The dolphins could have however very emotionallly charged lives, this has been suggested atleast. I just don't see what would be the benefit for them of this, or for the nature.

Anyway, there's no doubt that they are intelligent. But as soon as they come in contact with humans, it is not so obvious anymore what is purely impulsive behaviour and what is learned from humans, e.g. do a trick = get food.
For example my dog used to show unbelievable "intelligence" in getting food. I think this kind of intelligence is more like instincive driven intelligence and not the kind of intelligence you are talking about.
So far, in my opinion, humans are the only species that can be excluded from this group....Our motivation is not driven by survival anymore.


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**************************************************************
Yume Bitsu - Yume Bitsu





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InvisibleAdom
Totally Nude
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Registered: 09/30/01
Posts: 10,877
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Re: Dolphins... [Re: Stonerwitch]
    #460308 - 11/16/01 09:50 AM (22 years, 3 months ago)

In the same sense humans are pretty stupid too, they have no interest in money yet they are trained to center their lives around it.

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InvisibleStonerwitch
oilrig
Registered: 11/20/00
Posts: 147
Loc: England/Finland Etc.
Re: Dolphins... [Re: Adom]
    #460321 - 11/16/01 10:09 AM (22 years, 3 months ago)

Not me. I'm interested in getting money but I'm not trained to do so by any means:).

I wish money didn't excist though. I wish I could get my daily rations of food by slamming some squirrel skins on the desk.


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Yume Bitsu - Yume Bitsu





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OfflineTraveller
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Registered: 04/13/01
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Re: Dolphins... [Re: Stonerwitch]
    #460374 - 11/16/01 10:52 AM (22 years, 3 months ago)

"So far, in my opinion, humans are the only species that can be excluded from this group....Our motivation is not driven by survival anymore. "

maybe it's the christian influence on our school systems (i grew up in new zealand which was a british colony once upon a time so i expect the american school system is sort of similar) but for some reason we're not taught about (other kinds of) APES! but then on the other hand when i was in school no one had really done any research on them yet....anyway they don't have sufficiently developed vocal chords/mouths/tongues etc to speak but their problem solving skills are fantastic!! chimpanzees and gorillas are capable of imagining themselves in another being's (a human's) shoes....and sure it's still the case of solve this problem = get food, BUT if you were a hungry young human ape raised in captivity wouldn't you do the same?

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OfflineTraveller
enthusiast
Registered: 04/13/01
Posts: 309
Last seen: 16 years, 5 months
Re: Dolphins... [Re: Swami]
    #460376 - 11/16/01 10:54 AM (22 years, 3 months ago)

It's so good to read your comments sometimes Swami!!

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InvisibleAdom
Totally Nude
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Re: Dolphins... [Re: Stonerwitch]
    #460388 - 11/16/01 11:04 AM (22 years, 3 months ago)

I wasn't suggesting you acted this way, but surely you can see were I'm coming from, humans could be trained to believe or do just about anything.

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InvisibleUlysees
Power of Lard

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
Re: Dolphins... [Re: Adom]
    #460605 - 11/16/01 03:38 PM (22 years, 3 months ago)

I don't think we ever really stopped doing things for the sake of survival. Though we do a lot of things for enjoyment, these are usually done only when survival is taken care of. We just have the luxury of free time and resources to waste. Still, our primary function is survival, it will be that way as long as we are biological lifeforms. Perhaps even when we're not.


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OfflineAmoeba665
strange
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Loc: a hidden microutopia at t...
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Re: Dolphins... [Re: Ulysees]
    #460649 - 11/16/01 04:19 PM (22 years, 3 months ago)

well certainly survival is our first priority, but i don't think that it is our primary function. animals have the luxury of free time and resources also. they lounge around, relax, and generally be happy and enjoy their family's company. after they meet their need for survival and reproduction they are content. with humans this is not so. we continually need to find distractions to amuse us, whether they be entertainment or the continued pursuit of power in a twisted obsession with the need for "survival". when these distractions go away they are replaced by a yearning, a desire to push, and a tendency to be pulled inward.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Dolphins... [Re: Ulysees]
    #460709 - 11/16/01 05:35 PM (22 years, 3 months ago)

I like a little dolphin in my canned tuna - gives it extra flavor.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleRevelation

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Registered: 08/04/01
Posts: 6,135
Loc: heart cave
Re: Dolphins... [Re: Swami]
    #460718 - 11/16/01 05:57 PM (22 years, 3 months ago)

nice.


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OfflineTraveller
enthusiast
Registered: 04/13/01
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Re: Dolphins... [Re: Amoeba665]
    #460884 - 11/16/01 08:54 PM (22 years, 3 months ago)

while what you say seems to be true (about humans not being content when survival worries have been taken care of) I'm not sure that this is necessarily our natural state. I'm more inclined to believe that by separating ourselves from nature and filling our brains with unneccessary un-necessary neccesary....shit from day one, distractions everywhere we look and we are taught to pursue all this crap....we appear to be different but really it's just layers upon layers of superficial bullshit that makes us seem different.

ok i'm losing the plot of this post and thinking about my other earlier one.

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InvisibleUlysees
Power of Lard

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
Re: Dolphins... [Re: Traveller]
    #460967 - 11/16/01 10:47 PM (22 years, 3 months ago)

I think I agree with Traveller... heh heh. Maybe.
Anyhow, we are not any different than other animals in the basic sense: We first take care of things that allow us to survive (eating) then we mess around. It just so happens that Homo Sapiens got ahead of the game (we were more efficient than the other animals, due to many factors of evolution). We also developed the ability to store information, so that it could be passed down to younger generation (thus we don't have to function on pure instinct or learned behaviour, like other animals who don't have the ability to store information, or share information). So, by storing the information up and sharing it over thousands of years, we've accumulated all these things. We don't have them just because we're smart and we can invent things, that's not how it works. If a dolphin could write something down, like an instruction book of some sort, or even a cave drawing, they would be able to develop much more than they have by simply going on instinct all the time. You might be surprised to know that if you took a group of children, and didn't teach them anything, and raised them in the woods somewhere, they would be animals. It would take them a long time to develop a language and implement it (they probably wouldn't get past grunts). We owe almost everything we are to the people who wrote it down before us, they laid out the blueprints of how humans are to behave.


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Offlineshaggy101
Male

Registered: 08/16/00
Posts: 1,816
Loc: ..still waiting for godot
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
Re: Dolphins... [Re: Juggles]
    #461674 - 11/17/01 08:49 PM (22 years, 3 months ago)

music?

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