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OfflineLuke
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Registered: 07/27/05
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Oriental religions and the restriction of inebriates
    #4459551 - 07/27/05 11:40 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

In Buddhism and Taoism we find precepts/rules for that followers should not use inebriates. What do you think? I think its absurd. Personally people who follow that guide line are viewing in black and white.

Since inbriates are tools towards reaching higher states of awareness. Since you are raising the five desires (5 senses).

I see this as the only flaws in Buddhism and Taoism.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Oriental religions and the restriction of inebriates [Re: Luke]
    #4459557 - 07/27/05 11:42 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Not all Buddhists and Taoists feel this way. :wink:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Oriental religions and the restriction of inebriates [Re: Luke]
    #4459649 - 07/27/05 12:14 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

I have read the Tao Te Ching several times. I am of the understanding that this is the source of Taoism. I have seen no such restriction in it. I view the Tao Te Ching as just like a users manual for living humans. I think you should be issued one at birth with the words "Read this before proceeding further" written on the front. It does not address a "moral" or a religious position. It just tells one the "way" of life and the rules it is governed by.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflinePedM
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Re: Oriental religions and the restriction of inebriates [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4459966 - 07/27/05 02:21 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Below is a discussion I had with Ven. Thubten Chodron on the subject. It applies here. She says that while drug induced experiences may be spiritually uplifting and beneficial in the short term, in the long term they impair our spiritual growth. She says that drug induced experiences are not sustainable, while the fruits of spiritual effort are. I tend to agree with her. My real name has been edited from the dialog.



> [Ped] writes:
>
>
> Dearest Venerable Chodron,
>
>
> You suggested on your website that those Dharma practitioners who are still
> using intoxicants might be suffering from unclear motivation, distracted
> by notions that the use of intoxicants is a social requirement, or that
> they are merely attached to the pleasure of intoxicants themselves. While
> these seem valid conclusions, I'm curious: is it ever true that the use of
> intoxicants might be done with a motivation congruent with a proper
> Dharma-motivation? Personally speaking, it's fairly safe to say that the
> use of marijuana in my teen years played a big part in causing me to
> question the nature of reality and of conciousness, thereby leading me to
> Dharma books and Dharma teachers, to whom I'm now quite devoted. Even
> today I still feel as though the occasional bit of marijuana might impact
> my conciousness just enough to keep my perspective from growing stale and
> too-comfortable. Because of it's subliminally psychedelic effect, the
> marijuana experience, if properly motivated, puts things in a new light,
> and in my experience it helps me discover where it is I've been deluding
> myself. Given that ridding one's self of delusions is at the heart of the
> end-goal of Dharma practice, it would seem to me that for some, the use of
> intoxicants might be, at least for part of the path, beneficial.
>
> I don't put this forward so that I might challenge the doctrine which
> states that the use of intoxicants is contrary to the Buddhist path --
> that would be disrespectful and a waste of time. My intent here is to
> gain a proper understanding of why it is Buddha spoke with such totality
> against the use of intoxicants.
>
> The word "psychedelic" means "mind manifesting". As far as I know,
> manifesting conciousness to the point of absolution is the objective of
> Dharma practice. Might psychedelic drugs such as marijuana play a role
> for some practitioners? Am I way off base with this idea? What do you
> think?
>
> Thank you for taking the time,
>
> Sincerely,
>
> [Ped]



> Hi [Ped],
>
> Many of us asked this same question to our teachers back in the 60s and 70s
> when we first came across the Dharma. I know from experience that sometimes
> new insights could come while taking intoxicants. I also know from
> experience that more often the mind would be hazy and unclear and that my
> behavior would go beyond the ethical discipline that I now know is so
> essential for spiritual growth. In addition, a drug induced experience is
> just that--one that is induced by an external substance. It's not an
> authentic experience. Or rather it's an authentically drug-induced
> experience. It doesn't come from one's own practice.
>
> In addition, Dharma practice requires great commitment and effort over a
> long period of time to bring great transformation. Of course experiences can
> happen quickly by using drugs, but those experiences are not sustainable,
> and in an attempt to get back to where we were while high, we turn to drugs
> once again. This stunts the development of our own joyous effort in the
> path. In fact, our motivation can change without our being aware of it to
> seeking a spiritually uplifting experience for ourselves rather than seeking
> to purify our mind and develop our beneficial qualities for the benefit of
> all beings. The spiritual insights we gain through putting in time and
> energy, through making the connection to the Three Jewels in our heart by
> means of devotion to the path, are genuine and more stable spiritual
> insights.
>
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> Ven. Chodron
>
> www.thubtenchodron.org
> www.sravastiabbey.org
>
> May all sentient beings have happiness and its causes.
> May all sentient beings be free from suffering and its causes.
> May all sentient beings never be separated from sorrowless bliss.
> May all sentient beings abide in equanimity, free of bias, attachment, and
> anger
>


--------------------


:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Oriental religions and the restriction of inebriates [Re: Ped]
    #4460029 - 07/27/05 02:37 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

"In addition, a drug induced experience is
just that--one that is induced by an external substance. It's not an
authentic experience. Or rather it's an authentically drug-induced
experience. It doesn't come from one's own practice."

In reality all religious experiences are drug induced. The human body is a complex drug lab. This goes back to the fallacy of natural/unnatural. This view is high minded, but uninformed.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflineLuke
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Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 168
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Re: Oriental religions and the restriction of inebriates [Re: Ped]
    #4460039 - 07/27/05 02:40 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Ped said:
Below is a discussion I had with Ven. Thubten Chodron on the subject. It applies here. She says that while drug induced experiences may be spiritually uplifting and beneficial in the short term, in the long term they impair our spiritual growth. She says that drug induced experiences are not sustainable, while the fruits of spiritual effort are. I tend to agree with her. My real name has been edited from the dialog.



> [Ped] writes:
>
>
> Dearest Venerable Chodron,
>
>
> You suggested on your website that those Dharma practitioners who are still
> using intoxicants might be suffering from unclear motivation, distracted
> by notions that the use of intoxicants is a social requirement, or that
> they are merely attached to the pleasure of intoxicants themselves. While
> these seem valid conclusions, I'm curious: is it ever true that the use of
> intoxicants might be done with a motivation congruent with a proper
> Dharma-motivation? Personally speaking, it's fairly safe to say that the
> use of marijuana in my teen years played a big part in causing me to
> question the nature of reality and of conciousness, thereby leading me to
> Dharma books and Dharma teachers, to whom I'm now quite devoted. Even
> today I still feel as though the occasional bit of marijuana might impact
> my conciousness just enough to keep my perspective from growing stale and
> too-comfortable. Because of it's subliminally psychedelic effect, the
> marijuana experience, if properly motivated, puts things in a new light,
> and in my experience it helps me discover where it is I've been deluding
> myself. Given that ridding one's self of delusions is at the heart of the
> end-goal of Dharma practice, it would seem to me that for some, the use of
> intoxicants might be, at least for part of the path, beneficial.
>
> I don't put this forward so that I might challenge the doctrine which
> states that the use of intoxicants is contrary to the Buddhist path --
> that would be disrespectful and a waste of time. My intent here is to
> gain a proper understanding of why it is Buddha spoke with such totality
> against the use of intoxicants.
>
> The word "psychedelic" means "mind manifesting". As far as I know,
> manifesting conciousness to the point of absolution is the objective of
> Dharma practice. Might psychedelic drugs such as marijuana play a role
> for some practitioners? Am I way off base with this idea? What do you
> think?
>
> Thank you for taking the time,
>
> Sincerely,
>
> [Ped]



> Hi [Ped],
>
> Many of us asked this same question to our teachers back in the 60s and 70s
> when we first came across the Dharma. I know from experience that sometimes
> new insights could come while taking intoxicants. I also know from
> experience that more often the mind would be hazy and unclear and that my
> behavior would go beyond the ethical discipline that I now know is so
> essential for spiritual growth. In addition, a drug induced experience is
> just that--one that is induced by an external substance. It's not an
> authentic experience. Or rather it's an authentically drug-induced
> experience. It doesn't come from one's own practice.
>
> In addition, Dharma practice requires great commitment and effort over a
> long period of time to bring great transformation. Of course experiences can
> happen quickly by using drugs, but those experiences are not sustainable,
> and in an attempt to get back to where we were while high, we turn to drugs
> once again. This stunts the development of our own joyous effort in the
> path. In fact, our motivation can change without our being aware of it to
> seeking a spiritually uplifting experience for ourselves rather than seeking
> to purify our mind and develop our beneficial qualities for the benefit of
> all beings. The spiritual insights we gain through putting in time and
> energy, through making the connection to the Three Jewels in our heart by
> means of devotion to the path, are genuine and more stable spiritual
> insights.
>
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> Ven. Chodron
>
> www.thubtenchodron.org
> www.sravastiabbey.org
>
> May all sentient beings have happiness and its causes.
> May all sentient beings be free from suffering and its causes.
> May all sentient beings never be separated from sorrowless bliss.
> May all sentient beings abide in equanimity, free of bias, attachment, and
> anger
>




Ya they wanna keep us in black and white. They are simply narrow minded towards drug use. I call it Dharma in black and white when people are against drug use. I disagree with what she says. The long term effects are beneficial. I can not explian in words how it is better. It is a zen thing.

Overall psychedelics are a short cut in consciousness. Drug use can lead towards merit. This merit addition is simply a bonus. With the expanded consciousness induced while on psychedelics. It gives you that extra push in higher being. It can blow you're mind straight out of the water, nothing from what you knew before.
Personally it is more wholesome of a journey with drugs.

I am a Taoist master myself. I take my drug use very seriously as part of my path. It is very precious and something worth taking homage/refudge in. I am typing from a higher state of being. Which where my ego does not resrict drugs. Because it is simply of a higher status.


Edited by Luke (07/27/05 02:49 PM)


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Oriental religions and the restriction of inebriates [Re: Luke]
    #4460048 - 07/27/05 02:43 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

"I am a Taoist master myself."

Your post was pretty good, but how can you define yourself as a "master". Self bestowed titles are rarely worth much.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleELECTRIC
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Re: Oriental religions and the restriction of inebriates [Re: Luke]
    #4460115 - 07/27/05 03:04 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

"In Buddhism and Taoism we find precepts/rules for that followers should not use inebriates. What do you think? I think its absurd."


If those are the rules distinguished by the Buddhists and Taoists, and you do not follow the rules, then me thinks that you are not Buddhist or Taoist.

You could very well be a master in whatever it is that you do; however, you are only overlapping with some of their principles... You've not immersed yourself completely into it.


If I make an apple pie, and instead of apples, I use pears, then although the finished product may resemble an apple pie, it is not an apple pie.


--------------------
Nos confido phasmatis occultus in vicis postulo nostrum tutela donatus futurus.


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OfflineLuke
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Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 168
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Re: Oriental religions and the restriction of inebriates [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4460125 - 07/27/05 03:09 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
"I am a Taoist master myself."

Your post was pretty good, but how can you define yourself as a "master". Self bestowed titles are rarely worth much.




Well I have received the Taoist seal by Taoist preists at a Taoist temple. I am returning to the temple shortly. Self bestowed titles are worth very much in the Tao. I have studied the Tao Te Ching and the I Ching throughly. I am with the hexagram of stagnation. That I am simply one of the masters of Heaven (yang force). Now these drugs contain the power of Heaven inside them. Even plain old alcohol. Thats all I can say, notice I will only say so much as I still sand at my position?

These are secrets of Heaven (chien) we are all dealing with here.
Thats why it cannot be treated as darkness. Because darkness can only be found on Earth (kun) (yin force).

I have spoken too much. I have gave you all that you need.


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Offlineeve69
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Re: Oriental religions and the restriction of inebriates [Re: Luke]
    #4460197 - 07/27/05 03:33 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Well I have received the Taoist seal by Taoist preists at a Taoist temple. I am returning to the temple shortly. Self bestowed titles are worth very much in the Tao. I have studied the Tao Te Ching and the I Ching throughly. I am with the hexagram of stagnation. That I am simply one of the masters of Heaven (yang force). Now these drugs contain the power of Heaven inside them. Even plain old alcohol. Thats all I can say, notice I will only say so much as I still sand at my position?

These are secrets of Heaven (chien) we are all dealing with here.
Thats why it cannot be treated as darkness. Because darkness can only be found on Earth (kun) (yin force).

I have spoken too much. I have gave you all that you need.





I understood what you said, and when I used to order poppy pods and threw an I Ching I always got The Dragon.

But...the Dao is not located in the hexagram but in the entire 64 hexagrams at once. Therefore, though a principle may be explained through the I Ching, the principle can only be comprehended through the mind. And the mind is at once the sum of the sixty four.

Therefore the Dragon, though ruling heaven, clings to the treasures of earth with careful possesiveness.


--------------------
...or something







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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Oriental religions and the restriction of inebriates [Re: Luke]
    #4460308 - 07/27/05 03:55 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

"I am simply one of the masters of Heaven"

Have you met Spacedragon?


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflinePedM
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Re: Oriental religions and the restriction of inebriates [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4460441 - 07/27/05 04:36 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

>> In reality all religious experiences are drug induced. The human body is a complex drug lab. This goes back to the fallacy of natural/unnatural. This view is high minded, but uninformed.

Buddhists don't subscribe to the belief that the mind stops at the limits of electrochemical reactions. Electrochemical reactions are seen as a client for conciousness as much as any other object of the material realm. Simply because there is a complex relationship between conciousness and the material realm does not mean that conciousness is a product of, or absolutely confined to, the material realm.


>> Ya they wanna keep us in black and white. They are simply narrow minded towards drug use.

This is bias. I think you are narrow minded toward the Dharma and it's practitioners.


>> I call it Dharma in black and white when people are against drug use.

Milarepa attained full enlightenment within the span of one life time having never used any kind of substance.* I know of no drugs users who have attained full enlightenment at all, much less through the use of drugs.

*See Life of Milarepa, Chapter 8, in which he is quoted (translated from his own pen) as saying "thusly, having kept purely the vows given to me by my incomparable master and father Marpa, I have forgotten all my previous bondage to samsara." One of these vows is to abstain from all intoxicants.


>> I disagree with what she says. The long term effects are beneficial.

I agree that there is the potential for beneficial long term effects. They are not long term effects which directly propel someone toward the ultimate goal of Dharma practice, nor are they comparable to the ultimate goal.


>> Overall psychedelics are a short cut in consciousness. Drug use can lead towards merit.

If you're speaking of spiritual merit in the Buddhist sense, spiritual experiences induced by drugs are a consumption of the merit of past positive action. Actions carried out during the experience can build more merit, but this requires great concentration and skillful means not usually available to individuals in the throws of the psychedelic experience.


>> I am a Taoist master myself.

A Taoist master knows that there is no such thing as a Taoist master. From our point of view as ordinary beings, a Taoist master is free from bias. Clearly you are not free from bias.



Niether myself nor Ven. Chodron challenged the potential for conventional benefit from psychedelic drug use. What I am saying, and what Ven. Chodron was saying, is that there is no ultimate benefit, in that drugs cannot be what propels someone to the ultimate goal of permanent liberation and pure conciousness.

If there was some scope of what permanent liberation means, and what the ramifications of pure conciousness are, it would be easy to understand that even the most profound psychedelic experience does not compare. If there is no belief in the achievability of a state of total liberation and enlightenment in the mystical sense, then there is no basis for comparison and of course the psychedelic experience would seem essential. If there is no belief that conciousness exceeds the limits of mere biology, then of course the psychedelic experience would seem the highest attainable human state of being.


--------------------


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Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Oriental religions and the restriction of inebriates [Re: Ped]
    #4460649 - 07/27/05 05:43 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

"Buddhists don't subscribe to the belief that the mind stops at the limits of electrochemical reactions. Electrochemical reactions are seen as a client for conciousness as much as any other object of the material realm."

Neither do I, but whether the "client" is started by meditation and acsetic living or by the introduction of a chemical is irrelevant. One's intent is all that matters.

"what Ven. Chodron was saying, is that there is no ultimate benefit"

I would challenge this notion. Thousands of people have conquered severe personal problems and found better lives by use of psychedelics. The Native American Church has a many people who conquered aloholism through the use of Peyote inspired religious experience...the Santo Daime Church has many similar stories where individuals have conquered drug abuse and alcoholism through the use of ayahuasca. Literally thousands have learned to access their higher nature through psychedlic influence. Man was acheiving higher states through psychedelics in the stone age. There is no reason to believe that Buddhist would not benefit. With the advantage of having a disciplined mind through meditation those benefits would be greater. In the end the reason I abandoned Buddhism some twenty years ago was the whole idea of handing authority for one's religion completely over to a guru was blind. I must note that drugs alone will not bring change...and neither will meditation...intent is what brings the change. Which tool you use is simply personal preference.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Offlinefreddurgan
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Re: Oriental religions and the restriction of inebriates [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4460738 - 07/27/05 06:10 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
"In addition, a drug induced experience is
just that--one that is induced by an external substance. It's not an
authentic experience. Or rather it's an authentically drug-induced
experience. It doesn't come from one's own practice."

In reality all religious experiences are drug induced. The human body is a complex drug lab. This goes back to the fallacy of natural/unnatural. This view is high minded, but uninformed.




It's not about unnatural/natural, it's about coming from the inside, or coming from the outside. Yes your brain is a drug lab, but are you changing your state with your own practice? Or something outside of you, ala drugs.


--------------------
Ishmael
http://www.ishmael.org

Ron Paul 2008!
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/


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Re: Oriental religions and the restriction of inebriates [Re: Luke]
    #4460761 - 07/27/05 06:17 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Luke said:
Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
"I am a Taoist master myself."

Your post was pretty good, but how can you define yourself as a "master". Self bestowed titles are rarely worth much.




Well I have received the Taoist seal by Taoist preists at a Taoist temple. I am returning to the temple shortly. Self bestowed titles are worth very much in the Tao. I have studied the Tao Te Ching and the I Ching throughly. I am with the hexagram of stagnation. That I am simply one of the masters of Heaven (yang force). Now these drugs contain the power of Heaven inside them. Even plain old alcohol. Thats all I can say, notice I will only say so much as I still sand at my position?

These are secrets of Heaven (chien) we are all dealing with here.
Thats why it cannot be treated as darkness. Because darkness can only be found on Earth (kun) (yin force).

I have spoken too much. I have gave you all that you need.



:whatever:
I bet you were the kid who used to throw the monopoly board over the table when you were losing.


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OfflinePedM
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Re: Oriental religions and the restriction of inebriates [Re: TheCow]
    #4460891 - 07/27/05 06:57 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

>> whether the "client" is started by meditation and acsetic living or by the introduction of a chemical is irrelevant. One's intent is all that matters.

Granted. But meditation and ascetism are ongoing processes; once properly started they do not end until the cessation of the organism. Psychedelic experiences procede within the range of 4-12 hours. If we're to confine our discussion to the impact any of these processes has on the brain, 4-12 hours every couple of weeks, or even every couple of days, is not going to impact the overall configuration of the brain in nearly the same way as meditation or ascetisism would. And, in addition to this, how can we account for the unintended and sometimes undesirabe impact psychedelic experiences may have when consumed repeatedly over a long period? Might these effects impair our ability to acheive our spiritual intent?


>> Thousands of people have conquered severe personal problems and found better lives by use of psychedelics.
>> The Native American Church has a many people who conquered aloholism through the use of Peyote inspired religious experience
>> The Santo Daime Church has many similar stories where individuals have conquered drug abuse and alcoholism through the use of ayahuasca.
>> Literally thousands have learned to access their higher nature through psychedlic influence.
>> Man was acheiving higher states through psychedelics in the stone age.

All of these are conventional benefits. They are not ultimate benefits. In the Buddhist context, conventional benefits help living beings live happier lives within samsara. Ultimate benefits help living beings escape samsara altogether. Psychedelic experiences possess no ultimate benefit in that they do not lead someone permanently or directly toward the supreme state of liberation and enlightenment. At best they lead living beings temporarily and indirectly toward contaminated experiences of liberation and enlightenment, experiences which in themselves are propelled by the karmic potential of past actions and are merely catalyzed by the drugs. Because they are experiences which are contaminated by the karma of past actions, they are transistory experiences which do not nourish the seed of enlightenment within. At best these experiences cause the individual to explore enlightenment under their own volition.


>> There is no reason to believe that Buddhist would not benefit. With the advantage of having a disciplined mind through meditation those benefits would be greater.

A Buddhist may benefit, but only conventionally speaking. Many highly accomplished lay and ordained Buddhists have, on the advice of their teachers, experimented with psychedelic drugs. Most memorable to me was when Kelsang Yonten spoke of LSD, saying "It's like a high-contrast version of samsara. With LSD, samsara and it's futility was thoroughly revealed, but what wasn't revealed was the way out."


>> I must note that drugs alone will not bring change...and neither will meditation...intent is what brings the change. Which tool you use is simply personal preference.

It's agreed that it's the intent which bears the fruit of any action, be it indulgence in psychedelic drugs or the practice of meditation. It's also agreed that both psychedelic drugs and meditation can be used as tools. However, certain tools have certain uses: one does not attempt to drive a screw with a hammer. Even though one may successfully fulfil their intent to hang a picture by driving a screw using a hammer, their picture will not hang well because it was hung improperly. By the same token, even though one may successfully fulfil their intent for spiritual awakening by preturbing the mind using psychedelic drugs, their awakening will not be stable because it was achieved improperly.

For overcoming conventional problems such as alcoholism, self-esteem issues, anger issues, even religious and spiritual issues, psychedelic drugs are a profound and powerful tool. You will not receive contest from me on that point. For stopping samsara and attaining the supreme and uninterruptable bliss of full enlightenment, however, psychedelic drugs have no use. At best they may help the individual identify and clear away some of the more coarse obstructions. Dedication to the spiritual path and training the mind is the only way to put an end to samsaric existence.


--------------------


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Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Oriental religions and the restriction of inebriates [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4461176 - 07/27/05 08:25 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
"Buddhists don't subscribe to the belief that the mind stops at the limits of electrochemical reactions. Electrochemical reactions are seen as a client for conciousness as much as any other object of the material realm."

Neither do I, but whether the "client" is started by meditation and acsetic living or by the introduction of a chemical is irrelevant. One's intent is all that matters.

"what Ven. Chodron was saying, is that there is no ultimate benefit"

I would challenge this notion. Thousands of people have conquered severe personal problems and found better lives by use of psychedelics. The Native American Church has a many people who conquered aloholism through the use of Peyote inspired religious experience...the Santo Daime Church has many similar stories where individuals have conquered drug abuse and alcoholism through the use of ayahuasca. Literally thousands have learned to access their higher nature through psychedlic influence. Man was acheiving higher states through psychedelics in the stone age. There is no reason to believe that Buddhist would not benefit. With the advantage of having a disciplined mind through meditation those benefits would be greater. In the end the reason I abandoned Buddhism some twenty years ago was the whole idea of handing authority for one's religion completely over to a guru was blind. I must note that drugs alone will not bring change...and neither will meditation...intent is what brings the change. Which tool you use is simply personal preference.




:thumbup: At the least!


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Oriental religions and the restriction of inebriates [Re: Luke]
    #4461259 - 07/27/05 08:54 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Luke said:
In Buddhism and Taoism we find precepts/rules for that followers should not use inebriates. What do you think? I think its absurd. Personally people who follow that guide line are viewing in black and white.

Since inbriates are tools towards reaching higher states of awareness. Since you are raising the five desires (5 senses).

I see this as the only flaws in Buddhism and Taoism.




My rather simple take on the subject

1)Many religions,many organisations,many lawmakers are aware of man's nature which can be somewhat of a burden to him.The nature we have amongst others engulfs making mistakes ,getting addicted or reassuring ourselvesi n pleasant states. Substances like psychedelics can help someone if used correctly but...have a look around.Dont go far away look at those forums and trip reports over erowid.Many of them exhibit signs of drug abuse some of them even picture them as "boredeom breakers" with reports starting like 'it was saturady night,my party was cancelled i was bored so i downed X drug".Thats propably what the religions try to avoid.Also they wouldnt like their students every weekend popping psychedelics would they? AN epidimiological study could be well in order here :Just look at clubs and raves.Its full of people indulging into psychedelics,MDMA and the rest.Are they full of sages,wise masters,philosophers etc etc? Thats not to say psychedelics are useless ,thats to say that repeated usage by itself is not a magic wisdom/enlightement/intelligence/philosophy pill.

2)Have you thought that ,given the laws nowadays, no religion,philosophy system and certainly not their masters or authoritative figures would like to give the ok ,the green light to an illegal action? (Hence the reply to Ped)


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OfflinePedM
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Re: Oriental religions and the restriction of inebriates [Re: Psiloman]
    #4461318 - 07/27/05 09:10 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

>> Have you thought that ,given the laws nowadays, no religion,philosophy system and certainly not their masters or authoritative figures would like to give the ok ,the green light to an illegal action?

If Ven. Chodron's objection had to do with breaking the law, she'd have said so just as simply.


--------------------


:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Oriental religions and the restriction of inebriates [Re: Ped]
    #4461423 - 07/27/05 09:32 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Chodron, is just another person.  How can they know what happens to all people who come into contact with psychedelics?  How typical of the Buddhist practioners to assume they know all. :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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