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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Registered: 06/13/04
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Icelander]
    #4464457 - 07/28/05 12:23 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Yeah that is how I felt....but there are too many emotions being expressed to discuss it rationally...and I got tired of the insults.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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InvisibleArp
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Silversoul]
    #4464494 - 07/28/05 12:31 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
They need to be rewarded with something more than a pat on the back. The reward needs to be proportional to the disutility involved in the effort they've put in.




Let me tell you. It IS possible to feel good about being able to contribute WITHOUT necessarly having to recieve any wealth as compensation.

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Arp]
    #4464503 - 07/28/05 12:34 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Arp said:
Quote:

Paradigm said:
They need to be rewarded with something more than a pat on the back. The reward needs to be proportional to the disutility involved in the effort they've put in.




Let me tell you. It IS possible to feel good about being able to contribute WITHOUT necessarly having to recieve any wealth as compensation.



No shit. Try running a society based on that, and see where it gets you. You're not going to get people to go through years of medical school just to get paid the same as a janitor.


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InvisibleArp
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Silversoul]
    #4464523 - 07/28/05 12:43 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

You're not going to get people to go through years of medical school just to get paid the same as a janitor.

Don't you think people would be interested in learning & helping humanity unless they were compensated with wealth?

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Invisiblespud
I'm so fly.

Registered: 10/07/02
Posts: 44,410
Re: God Bless America [Re: Arp]
    #4464543 - 07/28/05 12:49 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Arp said:
You're not going to get people to go through years of medical school just to get paid the same as a janitor.

Don't you think people would be interested in learning & helping humanity unless they were compensated with wealth?




10 years of medical school is a bit much without monetary compensation.

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OfflineProsgeopax
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Arp]
    #4464556 - 07/28/05 12:53 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Newsflash! The facts are in, history has shown that 'from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs' leads to the economic disintegration of a society. Regardless of how wonderful it may sound, human nature is at odds with such naive utopian idealism. Organisms (humans included) respond to material incentives. Get used to it, it's the nature of life.


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.

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InvisibleArp
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4464594 - 07/28/05 01:07 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

I have no problems with slight differences in wages. Im not the jealous type.
What I don't like to see is poverty. Not that im suffering from it. Neither am I selfish.

10 years of medical school is a bit much without monetary compensation.

What about being able to help your fellow humans? Isnt that compensation enough?
Interests go beyond wealth & hunger for excess. You can study and be rewarded knowledge aswell.

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InvisibleArp
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Arp]
    #4464602 - 07/28/05 01:08 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Organisms (humans included) respond to material incentives. Get used to it, it's the nature of life.

Newsflash! We respond to alot more than material incentives.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: God Bless America [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #4464689 - 07/28/05 01:30 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
There is also an absence of crime, slums, and poverty...




Personally, I feel that it is important to maintain one's environment. :thumbup:

Quote:


although the suicide rate is rather high.




Sounds like Denmark to me. :lol:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Silversoul]
    #4464733 - 07/28/05 01:44 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

No, "market socialism" is what China currently has.

---blink in---
No. It's still comunism there.
Here in Germany, we have marketsocialism, which is called somehow translated: social market-economy.
But it falls more and more together, destructed ba greedy asocial capitalistic super-ego-profitlike industries and companies.
They ruin each country...

They are superevil
---blink out---


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Silversoul]
    #4464789 - 07/28/05 01:55 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Quote:

Arp said:
Quote:

Paradigm said:
They need to be rewarded with something more than a pat on the back. The reward needs to be proportional to the disutility involved in the effort they've put in.




Let me tell you. It IS possible to feel good about being able to contribute WITHOUT necessarly having to recieve any wealth as compensation.



No shit. Try running a society based on that, and see where it gets you. You're not going to get people to go through years of medical school just to get paid the same as a janitor.



Man, man, just get a look at the virgin-island.
But hurry, it soon will be destroyed by billionaires...


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Arp]
    #4464897 - 07/28/05 02:20 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Arp said:
I have no problems with slight differences in wages. Im not the jealous type.
What I don't like to see is poverty. Not that im suffering from it. Neither am I selfish.



Nor do I wish to see poverty, which is why I advocate Georgism, not socialism. Socialist policies have been the cause of more poverty than they have solved.

Quote:

10 years of medical school is a bit much without monetary compensation.

What about being able to help your fellow humans? Isnt that compensation enough?



Clearly not, or there would be no need for health insurance. It's possible to practice medicine for free, but very few people are willing to do it.

Quote:

Interests go beyond wealth & hunger for excess. You can study and be rewarded knowledge aswell.



I have quite a thirst for knowledge, but knowledge alone doesn't pay the bills. Also, there's more disutility involved in going to school than just studying. Homework and term papers are a bitch, and I'll be damned if I'm still making minimum wage when I graduate.


--------------------

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: God Bless America [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4464922 - 07/28/05 02:24 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
No, "market socialism" is what China currently has.

---blink in---
No. It's still comunism there.



Where have you been the last decade or so?  Private enterprise is thriving in China, which is one of the main reasons it is becoming a superpower right now.  The state still owns the raw materials such as steel, but commerce is everywhere in China.  They may still call it communism, but it bares no resemblance to Marx's vision.

Quote:

Here in Germany, we have marketsocialism, which is called somehow translated: social market-economy.



I believe the term "social democracy" is often used.  But essentially it is a capitalist welfare state.

Quote:

But it falls more and more together, destructed ba greedy asocial capitalistic super-ego-profitlike industries and companies.
They ruin each country...



Tell that to Hong Kong, or Taiwan, or Singapore, or South Korea.  Free market reforms have turned those places into economic giants.  Same goes for Ireland.

Quote:

They are superevil
---blink out---



:rolleyes:


--------------------

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InvisibleArp
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Silversoul]
    #4464942 - 07/28/05 02:29 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Socialist policies have been the cause of more poverty than they have solved.

Not in Sweden.

It's possible to practice medicine for free,but very few people are willing to do it.

Of course if you only value wealth.

I have quite a thirst for knowledge, but knowledge alone doesn't pay the bills.

In Sweden the guverment supports its people who wants to keep on
studying by lending them money. When done and people find related
jobs (often with a greater paycheck) they get to pay it back.

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Arp]
    #4464961 - 07/28/05 02:34 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

"n Sweden the guverment supports its people who wants to keep on
studying by lending them money. When done and people find related
jobs (often with a greater paycheck) they get to pay it back."

We have this in the US...it is called a student loan. And fuck getting one because I don't like owing people money.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Arp]
    #4464984 - 07/28/05 02:47 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Arp said:
Socialist policies have been the cause of more poverty than they have solved.

Not in Sweden.



I'm talking about the world as a whole. Sweden has enough private industry to keep its economy moving, but the socialist policies make the economy more sluggish. In Third World countries, socialism has had disastrous consequences. Developing countries can best serve their poor by opening up their markets.

Quote:

It's possible to practice medicine for free,but very few people are willing to do it.

Of course if you only value wealth.



Oh, cut the arrogant bullshit! 10 years of medical school is a drain on your life. It's a burden, or as economists would call it, a disutility. People don't take on such large burdens without expecting something in return. It is not selfish. It's simply common sense.

Quote:

I have quite a thirst for knowledge, but knowledge alone doesn't pay the bills.

In Sweden the guverment supports its people who wants to keep on
studying by lending them money. When done and people find related
jobs (often with a greater paycheck) they get to pay it back.



See Huehuecoytl's response.


--------------------

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InvisibleArp
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4464993 - 07/28/05 02:50 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
We have this in the US...it is called a student loan. And fuck getting one because I don't like owing people money.




So knowledge does pay the bills?

Yeah owing people money sucks.
The private enterprise in Sweden is turning more and more rentable apartments into "tenant-ownership" (if that is the right word).

It's very sad. Before the prices were regulated and you didn't have to owe a bank money nor have a great income to be able to find a decent place :rolleyes:

It can take several years today to find an rentable appartment and you need a steady income too. And they are very expensive!

A place to live, knowledge & food to eat should be ensured for everyone.
It still pretty much is but the way things are turning Im not sure for how long.

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Arp]
    #4465013 - 07/28/05 02:58 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

"A place to live, knowledge & food to eat should be ensured for everyone."

I am sure Sweden is a fine place to live, but I lived on $3.35 an hour for a few years in the US once (1986-90). I did't have the cash for a lot of stuff, but I never went hungry. As far as going to school I got a computer programming degree and never paid a dime. I got federal grants to cover the expenses. You don't pay back grants. I have been dirt poor before, but I have never suffered. I am middle class now...got a house in the country, 2 cars, broadband internet, and 5 computers in my living room. I only work for 9 months a year, but get paid for 12...I got it pretty good here in the US so I ain't complaining.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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InvisibleArp
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Arp]
    #4465020 - 07/28/05 03:01 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

but the socialist policies make the economy more sluggish.

So what if it is? Lets dont burn more resources than we have to.

It's simply common sense.

Doesn sound like common sense to me. Common sense is seeing that we should work together and not against eachother.
Working together does not exclude people from a decent life and put them in poverty.

History tells that people in poverty have a tendency to overthrow & work against the society - that doesn't make them richer though

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InvisibleArp
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4465051 - 07/28/05 03:11 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Maybe you are living the American dream but that doesnt mean there is any less poverty, less damage done to the enviroment, crime & bad health among the population as statistics can tell.

It is obvious which kind of politics have a tendency to affect these numbers in various ways.

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