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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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The natural rights thread to end all other natural rights threads
    #4442928 - 07/23/05 02:15 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I'll try and start this off at an appropriate place.

I have noticed amongst PA & L posters that there seem to be two camps of thought when it comes to the concept of "rights". The first camp says that rights are artificial constructs which have no natural legitimacy. The other side says that certain rights are naturally inherent, are owed to Man without question, are the basis for human behavior and interaction, and supercede other ideas.


Quote:

Paradigm said:

It's quite simple: A right is something owed to you.






Quote:

RandalFlagg said:

What is the justification that you are using when you say a right is something that is owed to you? You are taking what other men have said and created and you are saying that you have claim to it. These things that you lay claim to are not natural; they were created and agreed upon by other men. I can see no superceding order or natural law that gives these "rights" any legitimacy or natural origin. I have seen no proof that rights are naturally and inalienably granted.





Edited by RandalFlagg (07/23/05 02:23 PM)


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InvisibleKrishna
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Re: The natural rights thread to end all other natural rights threads [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4442990 - 07/23/05 02:26 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

well, for me, the existence of "natural rights" is something that can be explained/justified in two ways - firstly, the 'golden-rule' type of thing - that you would not do anything to anybody that you would not want them to do to you. thus, one can come up with all kinds of rights - the right to life, to movement, to freedom of thought, speech, expression (within the limitations that they don't impend anothers rights to those same things), etc. simple example - i wouldn't kill you, because i wouldn't find it 'fair' or 'just' if somebody killed me. thus, the right to life.

the second way (and here i'm close to commiting heresy in PA&L :wink: ) comes from the 'spiritual nature of man', for me. i view mankind, as well as all of 'existence' as being, essentially, one and the same - a part of a greater and infinite 'Being' - thus to 'harm' another would be the same as to 'harm' myself - and both equally destructive and pointless.

neither of these arguments would result in a list of rights, such as the UN Declaration of Human Rights - but both, in my mind, justify the need/inherent nature of certain 'rights'.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: The natural rights thread to end all other natural rights threads [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4442999 - 07/23/05 02:27 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

If a right can be violated, and all of them can, then they are obviously idealistic constructs of human thinking.

They are useful as goals to reach in politics, but in no way are they absolute or naturally created in simply existing. If they were, then we wouldn't have to fight so hard to keep them, and continuously lose many of them.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: The natural rights thread to end all other natural rights threads [Re: Krishna]
    #4443024 - 07/23/05 02:33 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Krishna said:
well, for me, the existence of "natural rights" is something that can be explained/justified in two ways - firstly, the 'golden-rule' type of thing - that you would not do anything to anybody that you would not want them to do to you.





That is more of a personal belief and hope than a logical explanation of rights and where their origins and legitimacy come from.

Quote:

Krishna said:
the second way (and here i'm close to commiting heresy in PA&L :wink: ) comes from the 'spiritual nature of man', for me. i view mankind, as well as all of 'existence' as being, essentially, one and the same - a part of a greater and infinite 'Being' - thus to 'harm' another would be the same as to 'harm' myself - and both equally destructive and pointless.





Including spirituality in the natural rights debate is quite acceptable in my opinion.  With spirituality there is the idea of something unseen that is greater than Man and His ideas and which may contain the proper wisdom to answer these questions.


Edited by RandalFlagg (07/23/05 02:34 PM)


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: The natural rights thread to end all other natural rights threads [Re: Ravus]
    #4443033 - 07/23/05 02:36 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
If a right can be violated, and all of them can, then they are obviously idealistic constructs of human thinking.





I disagree with that assumption. Just because a right can be violated doesn't mean that it is not something of natural origin.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: The natural rights thread to end all other natural rights threads [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4443284 - 07/23/05 04:05 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

People can preach about all these imaginary rights they seem to have, but if they can't practice them they don't realistically have them.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: The natural rights thread to end all other natural rights threads [Re: Redstorm]
    #4443321 - 07/23/05 04:14 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

People can preach about all these imaginary rights they seem to have, but if they can't practice them they don't realistically have them.




Not so. The fact that someone violates your rights does not indicate you have none. All it indicates is that someone has fucked you over.




Phred

*edit* this whole topic has been done to death already -- by most of the same participants. See http://www.shroomery.org/archives/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/3079426/page//fpart/1/vc/1 *end edit*


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Edited by Phred (09/14/05 05:37 PM)


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: The natural rights thread to end all other natural rights threads [Re: Phred]
    #4443344 - 07/23/05 04:21 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

So where do these imaginary rights hide away when you're not being allowed to use them?

I disagree with you strongly. If you are not granted rights, then how can you say you have them? Rights, to me, are not these abstract, magical things which you inherently own.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: The natural rights thread to end all other natural rights threads [Re: Redstorm]
    #4443375 - 07/23/05 04:28 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

You always have them. They are part of your metaphysical nature as a specimen of Homo sapiens sapiens.

The fundamental right (all others -- such as the right to property -- are corollaries) which every human possesses is the right to attempt to continue his existence. You as a human have that right whether you are acting in solitude or in the middle of crowded city.




Phred


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Offlinecb9fl
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Re: The natural rights thread to end all other natural rights threads [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4443395 - 07/23/05 04:34 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

After doing some reading on the subject it seems that the word rights is too ambiguous to be used by itself. "Rights" needs to be modified before it can have a full meaning. Natural rights are thus usually different from legal rights.

I believe one of the reason's this thread was started was that zappa failed to realize that the founding fathers unequivocally believed in natural rights and based this country's founding documents on that belief.


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It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: The natural rights thread to end all other natural rights threads [Re: Phred]
    #4443401 - 07/23/05 04:35 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

What the hell does a right matter for if it isn;t granted, though?


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Re: The natural rights thread to end all other natural rights threads [Re: Redstorm]
    #4443441 - 07/23/05 04:49 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

What the hell does a right matter for if it isn;t granted, though?




You continue to confuse the issue. It's not a question of "granting" anything. It's a question of not "stealing" something.

If you are by yourself (in isolation), you can always act in a manner which attempts to further your existence. However, in the company of others, you can act in a manner which attempts to further your existence only to the extent that those others do not prevent you from doing so.



Phred


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: The natural rights thread to end all other natural rights threads [Re: Phred]
    #4443443 - 07/23/05 04:50 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Yes, but what if others prevent you from doing so? What happens to these rights?


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: The natural rights thread to end all other natural rights threads [Re: Phred]
    #4443454 - 07/23/05 04:56 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
You always have them. They are part of your metaphysical nature as a specimen of Homo sapiens sapiens.

So you do believe in rights floating out there in the ether somewhere. In the absence of humans would there still be rights? Does the mouse have the right not to be eaten by the snake? Since without eating mice the snake would die does the snake have the right to eat mice? I myself do not find any reason to believe in the existence of anything that might be termed metaphysical or spiritual or religious. They are distractions. Rights are interpersonal agreements that arise from a collective agreement about what is in the best interests of the participants. They do not exist in the absence of a plurality of persons. One man alone has no rights. There is nothing "natural" about them. Fictitious and childish, like god.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: The natural rights thread to end all other natural rights threads [Re: Redstorm]
    #4443459 - 07/23/05 04:57 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
People can preach about all these imaginary rights they seem to have, but if they can't practice them they don't realistically have them.




Whether something is practised or not does not have any bearing on its legitimacy. It is possible for natural rights to exist and for them to be violated. The violation of rights doesn't mean that they don't exist naturally.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: The natural rights thread to end all other natural rights threads [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4443461 - 07/23/05 04:58 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Well if they exist, but can't be practiced, they have miniscule importance.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: The natural rights thread to end all other natural rights threads [Re: Phred]
    #4443473 - 07/23/05 05:03 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
You always have them. They are part of your metaphysical nature as a specimen of Homo sapiens sapiens.





And your justification for that belief is....? Didn't you write before that all alive things strive to stay alive and therefore legitimate "natural rights" (right to life, right to property, etc..) can be drawn from that? Just because alive things strive to stay alive doesn't mean the rights that you derive from that basic idea are valid or natural. They are constructs of your mind. They are your opinions.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: The natural rights thread to end all other natural rights threads [Re: cb9fl]
    #4443479 - 07/23/05 05:04 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

cb9fl said:
Natural rights are thus usually different from legal rights.





Yes they are.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: The natural rights thread to end all other natural rights threads [Re: Redstorm]
    #4443492 - 07/23/05 05:06 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Well if they exist, but can't be practiced, they have miniscule importance.




Good point. But they still have importance because they are a part of an established natural order that has more legitimacy than any other form of thought.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: The natural rights thread to end all other natural rights threads [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4443504 - 07/23/05 05:09 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Bah, the whole natural order thing is just as illegitimate as natural rights. Natural order is good in theory, but in practice, the world consists of governments who exist to increase their power, not to protect their citizen's rights.

If someone important told me I was a millionaire, but never in my life did I see a dollar of this money, would I be a millionaire?


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