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 mikonn
me
Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 192
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 Welcome to Virginia! 5th in series of Posts of VA finds Pics. help. 
#4441855 - 07/23/05 06:48 AM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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E.
Northern Virginia, usa.
Found on lawn.
Stem- 4 to 5 in. thicker at apex. undulating or whatever. fiborous spiralling down in some. lighter at top. blueing at base
Cap- 1/2 in to 1 1/2 in. conic to nearly flat with bump on top which is darker. margin up turned. increasing with age.
Gills- tan to nearly black . close to far with age. alway below margin.
print black.
??
any ideas.
more to come.
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LouiseLouise
starstruck
 
Registered: 11/02/04
Posts: 3,898
Loc: Searching w/my good eye c...
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Re: Welcome to Virginia! 5th in series of Posts of VA finds Pics. help. [Re: mikonn]
#4441874 - 07/23/05 07:10 AM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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All of the mushrooms you have shown in these four threads are Panaeolus subbalteatus
But why 4 threads? Were all of the mushrooms that you show found in the same group? If not how far apart? They're subbs.
To get a better idea of gill to stem relationship, cut one in half long way.
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"That's why you get in close to them, and then take the picture!! Don't be a pussy!" ~CC
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 Ramuh
Finder of thesubbs
Registered: 07/04/05
Posts: 837
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
Last seen: 9 years, 6 months
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Re: Welcome to Virginia! 5th in series of Posts of VA finds Pics. help. [Re: LouiseLouise]
#4441884 - 07/23/05 07:19 AM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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Actually IMO...tho ones in this thread all look like foes, while in some of the other threads I see subbs. I agree that this many threads was quite unnecessary though.
The prints in the other threads look pretty black, but this one to me looks like a foe print. The main thing making me say it is a foe, though, would be the gills. Not only do they hang pretty low, but they don't have that tight and closer pattern that the subbs seem to have.
But Im confused, the bottom half of these pics look completely different than the top half ones now that I look at it. So yeah..we need some organization here. Overall, through all of your posts, it would seem as if you have a foe/subb mix. Foes are inactive, subbs are active. Anyway, my first paragraph saying they were foes was based on the first two pics.
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Radio is down for a day or two to transfer all my music, and do some other work.
"Light, coming from my mind. We are one, the night has just begun"
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mikonn
me
Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 192
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Re: Welcome to Virginia! 5th in series of Posts of VA finds Pics. help. [Re: LouiseLouise]
#4441909 - 07/23/05 07:32 AM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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LouiseLouise
All of the mushrooms in the 5 threads where found in the same yard. The 5 mushrooms are markedly different. Some blue on there caps. stems are different. different colors, gills are different. age differently. They can not be all subbs. I posted five threads to address each different type of mushroom. Rather than loading up one thread with all that info. Its an attempt to be organized.
this one in particular has an upturn margin at any age, I do not believe that is true with subbs. the stems are not like subbs. the gills are not like subs. ? ? ?
what make you say it is a subb exactly?
Please take a closer look. I appreciate it.
Edited by mikonn (07/23/05 07:48 AM)
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mikonn
me
Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 192
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Re: Welcome to Virginia! 5th in series of Posts of VA finds Pics. help. [Re: Ramuh]
#4441920 - 07/23/05 07:37 AM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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Ramuh,
the 3rd and 4th pic in this post are simply different views of the mushrooms in the 1st pic. the 2nd pic are the same type of mushrooms. The exact same mushrooms. This mushroom blues at its base and has black prints. it is not a foe.
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LouiseLouise
starstruck
Registered: 11/02/04
Posts: 3,898
Loc: Searching w/my good eye c...
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Re: Welcome to Virginia! 5th in series of Posts of VA finds Pics. help. [Re: mikonn]
#4441935 - 07/23/05 07:47 AM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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ok, let's start from the beginning. All of your mushrooms print back. Though after more examining, I'm inclined to agree with Ramuh. So, that puts them in the panaeolus genus. They were growing out of the ground. that narrows it down pretty good to foens or subbs.
From what I see, the caps are an irregular shape. They are bruising blue at the base and the cap (most subbs don't bruise at all) I see a slight bulbous just below the cap. I see that the striation patterns are spiraling. All of those are characteristic of pan. subb. Just because they don't have the classic "belt" on the cap, some are lighter in the cap. There is no rule that says the gills of subbs cannot hang below the level of the cap.
I don't know what my tone sounds like to you, but I am not calling you stupid, nor am I arguing with you, just working together to help you identify what you found.
What other indicators do you see that says these are not subbs?
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"That's why you get in close to them, and then take the picture!! Don't be a pussy!" ~CC
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mikonn
me
Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 192
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Re: Welcome to Virginia! 5th in series of Posts of VA finds Pics. help. [Re: LouiseLouise]
#4441949 - 07/23/05 07:53 AM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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Thanks LouiseLouise
I just edited my previous reply. I'm not sure if my tone sounds aggressive, but definately I appreciate your help. I think the main characteristic with these is the persistant upturned margin at all ages, the coloring. the fairly thin long stems.
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LouiseLouise
starstruck
Registered: 11/02/04
Posts: 3,898
Loc: Searching w/my good eye c...
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Re: Welcome to Virginia! 5th in series of Posts of VA finds Pics. help. [Re: mikonn]
#4441959 - 07/23/05 08:02 AM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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It didn't Mikkon, just that I hate to see ppl go to calling each other nasty names when nothing has been implied. I'm not perfect, I am wrong alot of times too.
Yeah, I noticed that about this set of pics. in particular. If you say they bruise blue at the base just like the others, may be just the position they were in, more sun or something. It's amazing how the same mushrooms from the same general area can look so different. Imma go search for that page Gumby started, and bring it here. I don't know if you've read it, but it shows side by side comparisons, very interesting. I'll be back...
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"That's why you get in close to them, and then take the picture!! Don't be a pussy!" ~CC
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LouiseLouise
starstruck
Registered: 11/02/04
Posts: 3,898
Loc: Searching w/my good eye c...
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Re: Welcome to Virginia! 5th in series of Posts of VA finds Pics. help. [Re: mikonn]
#4441968 - 07/23/05 08:11 AM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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'ere ya go, check this out, very informative.
http://www.impakt.net/~tyler/subbs/
Thanks Gumby.
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"That's why you get in close to them, and then take the picture!! Don't be a pussy!" ~CC
Edited by LouiseLouise (07/23/05 08:13 AM)
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mikonn
me
Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 192
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Re: Welcome to Virginia! 5th in series of Posts of VA finds Pics. help. [Re: LouiseLouise]
#4441978 - 07/23/05 08:20 AM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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Thanks alot,
Yes that's a very interesting page. Helps alot with subbs.
Yes all the comments I made were refering to this post in particular.
Some of these definately did blue at base, I should say some more than others. Prints are definately black. I don't see how these can be subs.
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Ramuh
Finder of thesubbs
Registered: 07/04/05
Posts: 837
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
Last seen: 9 years, 6 months
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Re: Welcome to Virginia! 5th in series of Posts of VA finds Pics. help. [Re: mikonn]
#4443361 - 07/23/05 02:25 PM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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Well from the second picture the stems looked REALLY white, as opposed to the other ones, which is why I thought they were different mushrooms. The caps really have little to do with identifying between which is which really, as they both end up looking pretty darn close after some nice sun exporsure.
Judging by the third picture, I would say they are subbs all the way. By the second picture, I would say foes all the way...if all I saw was that second picture I would be pretty convinced they are foes. Since they are all the same in all the pics, though, they must be subbs...just with some odd lighting going on in that one pic.
Really the only thing that makes me doubt the subbness of these would be the gills being further apart than subbs Ive seen (and the stem color in pic #2). Everything else points to subb though, so yeah.
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Radio is down for a day or two to transfer all my music, and do some other work.
"Light, coming from my mind. We are one, the night has just begun"
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mikonn
me
Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 192
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Re: Welcome to Virginia! 5th in series of Posts of VA finds Pics. help. [Re: Ramuh]
#4443569 - 07/23/05 03:27 PM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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Ramuh,
Hi there. Are you saying that you have found subbs that have upturned margins and are nearly flat throughout there growth? I don't understand how this mushroom looks like a Panaeolus subbalteatus? would it be possible for you to post some images of ones you have found that are similiar?
thanks
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Ramuh
Finder of thesubbs
Registered: 07/04/05
Posts: 837
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
Last seen: 9 years, 6 months
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Re: Welcome to Virginia! 5th in series of Posts of VA finds Pics. help. [Re: mikonn]
#4443619 - 07/23/05 03:44 PM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
mikonn said:
Ramuh,
Hi there. Are you saying that you have found subbs that have upturned margins and are nearly flat throughout there growth? I don't understand how this mushroom looks like a Panaeolus subbalteatus? would it be possible for you to post some images of ones you have found that are similiar?
thanks
Here are characteristics that make it look like the active mushroom Panaeolus Subbalteatus. In the lower two pictures, the stems are a darker color with a reddish tint kinda in there. Foes are generally more whitish. Where the gills meet the stem at the top, I see the little lines that are usually a signature mark of subbs. On the stem itself, it looks like I can see the little spirals going down the stem on some of them, which is also a subb trait. The biggest thing is a JET BLACK sporeprint. Foes have a very very dark brown sporeprint (easily confused as black, until you find a subb and see what black truly is). Also, the caps are slightly deformed. This is possible in both species, but it is much more common in the subb.
So, are you saying that you think these are foes? I was under the impression you thought they were subbs anyway. As for pictures of subbs I have found...unfortunately the only one I have is a webcam shot I quickly took to show someone something. Here it is anyway. Ill have to take more shots of my finds from now on, now that I have a nice digital camera to use.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v113/Corrack/Picture5.jpg (showing of gills, note that they are much more tightly packed, which was my only complaint against your mushrooms).
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Radio is down for a day or two to transfer all my music, and do some other work.
"Light, coming from my mind. We are one, the night has just begun"
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Lysergic_Milkman
Dr. Fist
Registered: 10/21/04
Posts: 1,676
Loc: ATL
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Re: Welcome to Virginia! 5th in series of Posts of VA finds Pics. help. [Re: Ramuh]
#4443665 - 07/23/05 04:01 PM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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Are you sure your prints are black? those look like more like Psilocybe than either Panaeolus or Panaeolina.
The general size of the mushrooms is relatively small for Panaeolus subbalteatus, and doesnt fit the physical description, but Panaeolina foenisecii has a brown print and doesnt stain blue, so that is also unlikely.
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mikonn
me
Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 192
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Re: Welcome to Virginia! 5th in series of Posts of VA finds Pics. help. [Re: Lysergic_Milkman]
#4444149 - 07/23/05 06:33 PM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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thanks for looking.
I'm going to go back to all my prints and take better pics. should be able to post them soon.
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mikonn
me
Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 192
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Re: Welcome to Virginia! 5th in series of Posts of VA finds Pics. help. [Re: Lysergic_Milkman]
#4444309 - 07/23/05 07:19 PM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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ok. here are some better pics of the prints.
they look black. but some of the gills did seem to have a slight purplish tinge to them. i don't know.
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flowstone
blustering
Registered: 01/25/05
Posts: 6,485
Loc: precious
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Re: Welcome to Virginia! 5th in series of Posts of VA finds Pics. help. [Re: mikonn]
#4444944 - 07/23/05 10:20 PM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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All the ones pictured here are foes. look how thinly apart and brown the gills are even in fully mature specimens. Subbs will be black gilled when fully mature as long as they've been that way for a little bit.
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these long agonizing months without you...have been long and agonizing..
"War Doesn't Decide Who's Right... It Only Decides Who's Left."
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Ramuh
Finder of thesubbs
Registered: 07/04/05
Posts: 837
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
Last seen: 9 years, 6 months
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Re: Welcome to Virginia! 5th in series of Posts of VA finds Pics. help. [Re: flowstone]
#4444959 - 07/23/05 10:26 PM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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That set of sporeprints does NOT look black...well, it does, but not jet black like subbs.
Due to that they are pretty much for sure foes. Hence Im inclined to believe that the second picture has the colors closest to correct, which makes it look like a foe. Im still kinda baffled by the insane difference in colors in the same mushrooms just from two different angles :P.
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Radio is down for a day or two to transfer all my music, and do some other work.
"Light, coming from my mind. We are one, the night has just begun"
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mikonn
me
Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 192
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Re: Welcome to Virginia! 5th in series of Posts of VA finds Pics. help. [Re: flowstone]
#4445036 - 07/23/05 10:52 PM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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Flowstone,
Thanks for looking. I don't believe they are subbs. But i also don't believe they are foes. The prints are black. no brown at all.
the also blued on the bottom half on the stem.
here it shown it a little.
Unfortunately I didnt get very good pics of the bluing. Hopefully I be able to get some more and get better pics.
but it's not a foe.
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flowstone
blustering
Registered: 01/25/05
Posts: 6,485
Loc: precious
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Re: Welcome to Virginia! 5th in series of Posts of VA finds Pics. help. [Re: mikonn]
#4445049 - 07/23/05 10:55 PM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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You call that bluing? Have you ever seen a fresh cube? IMO there is no bluing there. And even on pan subs bluing is rare. Bluing is NOT(rarely) an ID factor when trying to identify subbs.
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these long agonizing months without you...have been long and agonizing..
"War Doesn't Decide Who's Right... It Only Decides Who's Left."
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mikonn
me
Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 192
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Re: Welcome to Virginia! 5th in series of Posts of VA finds Pics. help. [Re: flowstone]
#4445088 - 07/23/05 11:03 PM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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the photo does not show the blueing that well, and yes the blueing was not extensive, like one would see on a cube. there was a distinct blueing though. Again, I do not believe theses are subbs. I do not believe you would find even this modest blueing on a foe. I do not however know what they are.
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flowstone
blustering
Registered: 01/25/05
Posts: 6,485
Loc: precious
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Re: Welcome to Virginia! 5th in series of Posts of VA finds Pics. help. [Re: mikonn]
#4445101 - 07/23/05 11:07 PM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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The pictures you are posting are inconsistent and you've edited them already. Don't ask for right answers with this kind of information. The stem picture you posted, it looks like the one in the middle is of a different variety than the ones on the outside. Thus the cross strain pictures and confusion. Seriously, I've answered everything you could need to know. Just read it, and toss them if you aren't smart enough to figure it out. Good luck!
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these long agonizing months without you...have been long and agonizing..
"War Doesn't Decide Who's Right... It Only Decides Who's Left."
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Ramuh
Finder of thesubbs
Registered: 07/04/05
Posts: 837
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
Last seen: 9 years, 6 months
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Re: Welcome to Virginia! 5th in series of Posts of VA finds Pics. help. [Re: flowstone]
#4445117 - 07/23/05 11:10 PM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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Im decently convinced that these are foes now. Since many of the key ID points for subb / foe distinction arent very clear, I can really only go off the gills, which as I said before do not look like subb gills. Subb gills that I have found are more tightly packed and are darker with lighter white areas on the very edge, creating a cool looking contrast.
Also...just judging by the picture I still disagree that the prints are jet black.
Here is what you SHOULD look for when distiguishing between foes and subbs: Lines at the top of the stem where the gills meet the stem. Darker stems with a slight redness to them maybe. Closer gills with possibly some white edges. Black black black prints. Possible spirals going down the stem.
I mean..I can say all this really, but its still hard to explain well enough without actually finding several of both for yourself and then seeing it in your mind. At first I couldnt distiguish at all, but now out in the field I find myself becoming 95% or so accurate.
Also...generally if they look like this, have that kind of sporeprint, and grow in the lawn if its not a subb, its a foe.
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Radio is down for a day or two to transfer all my music, and do some other work.
"Light, coming from my mind. We are one, the night has just begun"
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mikonn
me
Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 192
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Re: Welcome to Virginia! 5th in series of Posts of VA finds Pics. help. [Re: flowstone]
#4445174 - 07/23/05 11:24 PM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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there are absolutely no inconsistencies in the pictures in this post. and im not sure what you are saying buy saying that i have edited them. the pictures of the stems that i posted was a closeup of this picture
posted earlier in the thread.
As you can see. they are from the same type, the two on either side of the stem a im refering too have been broken and do not have bases.
Please do not talk that not being smart enough trash. if you aren't interested anymore please just stop posting.
thank you.
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BetaDelta
Stranger
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Re: Welcome to Virginia! 5th in series of Posts of VA finds Pics. help. [Re: Ramuh]
#4445180 - 07/23/05 11:25 PM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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Yea I have to aggree with flowstone and say that is not bluing...And everything else he said was right too! haha,
Take care
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Ramuh
Finder of thesubbs
Registered: 07/04/05
Posts: 837
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
Last seen: 9 years, 6 months
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Re: Welcome to Virginia! 5th in series of Posts of VA finds Pics. help. [Re: BetaDelta]
#4445189 - 07/23/05 11:28 PM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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Just out of curiosity, mikonn, what makes you think that these aren't foes? I just ask this since we seem to agree that they arent subbs.
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Radio is down for a day or two to transfer all my music, and do some other work.
"Light, coming from my mind. We are one, the night has just begun"
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mikonn
me
Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 192
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Re: Welcome to Virginia! 5th in series of Posts of VA finds Pics. help. [Re: Ramuh]
#4445228 - 07/23/05 11:35 PM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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prints are black. no brown at all. some specimens exhibited blueing at base of stem, which is not evident in the pictures.
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Ramuh
Finder of thesubbs
Registered: 07/04/05
Posts: 837
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
Last seen: 9 years, 6 months
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Re: Welcome to Virginia! 5th in series of Posts of VA finds Pics. help. [Re: mikonn]
#4445270 - 07/23/05 11:45 PM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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Well...there is only one last thing I can do really to help you see this then. I have overlayed a print that I know to be a subb print onto your picture.
And overlaying a foe print on there makes it look pretty darn similar to your print. Also in PSP, hovering the color thing over your prints showed slightly higher red and green values, if you really want to get that technical.
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Radio is down for a day or two to transfer all my music, and do some other work.
"Light, coming from my mind. We are one, the night has just begun"
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mikonn
me
Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 192
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Re: Welcome to Virginia! 5th in series of Posts of VA finds Pics. help. [Re: Ramuh]
#4445320 - 07/24/05 12:11 AM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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ok. so here is an enlargement of the print in photoshop.
it definately shows a purplish tint, which could place it as Psilocybe as Lysergic_Milkman suggested.
Ramuh, thanks for getting techincal.
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mikonn
me
Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 192
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Re: Welcome to Virginia! 5th in series of Posts of VA finds Pics. help. [Re: mikonn]
#4447586 - 07/24/05 05:26 PM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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Here are some new pics of a few that I was able to pic today.
They are very young. you can see that the stems are no more that two inches in length. margin is still upturned and gills are still below the margin.
I'm not sure why so many people seem to believe these are foes. I've seen thousands of pics of foes and have picked thousands and thousands of them, at least, and I have never seen ones that fit these descriptions and pictures. Maybe I'm lost here. Could someone please post a picture they have of a foe that resembles these mushrooms?
It also seems that some people are acting rather agitated even belligerent (including someone giving me a lowish rating) after suggesting that I was perhaps not smart enough to understand what he/she was telling me.
It also seems that I have upset some by dividing my inquiry into 5 seperate threads for organizations sake. I was told that this is a "very bad" idea (from the same "helpful" individual refered to above). I actually seem to remember it being suggested at some point, when someone has a collection, that it would facillate id if they sorted through them seperated them out by distinquishable features and creating seperate posts for each. Why exactly is this so objectionable?
If one of the mods could consult on this it would be greatly appreciated. I really don't mean to be a bother and if this sort of thing is frowned upon I certainly not do it again.
Thanks for those who have been patient with my posts. If I at times seem argumentive,for the most part I do not mean to. I simply am trying to ask questions and learn more, and sometimes this entails pushing a bit.
I am going to continue to update my posts and hope everyone will feel free to contribute anything helpful (and I will also try to help others when it seems that I can be of help)
Thanks again.
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LouiseLouise
starstruck
Registered: 11/02/04
Posts: 3,898
Loc: Searching w/my good eye c...
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Re: Welcome to Virginia! 5th in series of Posts of VA finds Pics. help. [Re: mikonn]
#4448189 - 07/24/05 07:53 PM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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I've been considering your point. I see, those do look different in the ways that you describe. Are you using a field guide? I would say the next thing to do is to document every characteristic of those mushrooms. Maybe contact a local mycology group, try to find out more.
I say this, because I'm thinking by the time you cut one in half you may see some obvious differences to the subbs, after that you need a microscope, that will tell for sure.
peace
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"That's why you get in close to them, and then take the picture!! Don't be a pussy!" ~CC
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mikonn
me
Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 192
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Re: Welcome to Virginia! 5th in series of Posts of VA finds Pics. help. [Re: LouiseLouise]
#4448350 - 07/24/05 08:35 PM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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LouiseLouise,
thanks for the reply. I'll be continuing to document everything I can. There were some there went today and hopefully they will larger tomorrow. I'll keep posting.
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mikonn
me
Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 192
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Re: Welcome to Virginia! 5th in series of Posts of VA finds Pics. help. [Re: mikonn]
#4454964 - 07/26/05 10:06 AM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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Here are some new specimans picked today, including some pretty small and young ones.
here is a close-up of the base of a few of the stems.
the photo does not show it very well, unfortunately, but there is blueing. It seems that these specimens blue only at the very base, and the base seems to break of very easily when picked. Also the base darkens very quickly and the blueing is much harder to see.
here is a photo of the cap in half.
Edited by mikonn (07/26/05 10:58 AM)
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psiclops
# 1
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Posts: 1,965
Loc: PNW
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Re: Welcome to Virginia! 5th in series of Posts of VA finds Pics. help. [Re: Lysergic_Milkman]
#4455026 - 07/26/05 10:26 AM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Lysergic_Milkman said:
Are you sure your prints are black? those look like more like Psilocybe
What!!!!
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mikonn
me
Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 192
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 Re: Welcome to Virginia! 5th in series of Posts of VA finds Pics. help. [Re: mikonn]
#4506548 - 08/07/05 09:57 AM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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Thought I'd bump this to see if anyone might have any new ideas.
take alook at the other 4 if you are interested.
Thanks alot
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hyphae
born to grow
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Re: Welcome to Virginia! 5th in series of Posts of VA finds Pics. help. [Re: mikonn]
#4506574 - 08/07/05 10:13 AM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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From my experience picking foes and subbs I would say they don't even look like subbs at all and do resemble foes with longer than usual stems as far as my experiences, where these picked in taller grasses as opposed to freshly cut lawns?
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Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy.
Oyster Shell "Flour" $2 for 1lb. a hell of a deal 
Not what is overlay but rather what overlay is
Gas Exchange vs. FAE
"We all have priorities. I used a closet once setup a nice little lab trouble was all the shit that was in there ended up in the bedroom that pissed off the GF then I ended up dumping her as she was getting in the way of my sterile culture technique! Ya I got priorities too!!!"
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mikonn
me
Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 192
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Re: Welcome to Virginia! 5th in series of Posts of VA finds Pics. help. [Re: hyphae]
#4506589 - 08/07/05 10:21 AM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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I've found them on three or four occasions, when the lawn was pretty over grown and when it had been recently cut. Would you happen to have any pictures of foes that you have picked or that you know of that resemble these, in particular with the margin upturned and gills hanging pronouncedly below at nearly (as far as i've seen) all stages of maturation?
Thanks
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