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InvisibleNewbie
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My next move...grain substrate (WBS)
    #4441613 - 07/23/05 05:32 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I'm reading great things about WBS substrates, and it seems like its pretty straight-forward, despite being in the advanced teks section. I have experience with PF only, but I think I'm going to try a wbs because of it's high yield. Is there any real secret or is it as simple as it sounds?

PS. I'm studying Doc's WBS tek and the 6T WBS tek.


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InvisibleMrMaddHatter
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Re: My next move...grain substrate (WBS) [Re: Newbie]
    #4441686 - 07/23/05 05:57 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Either of those teks are great. WBS is the shit!

And there is no real secret, just make sure you use a pressure cooker for sterilization and you'll be ok.

Then all you gotta worry about is your inoculation technique. :tongue:

Good luck :cool:


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InvisibleNewbie
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Re: My next move...grain substrate (WBS) [Re: MrMaddHatter]
    #4441724 - 07/23/05 06:22 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Nice! Yeah, I won't mind shelling out $60-$70 for a PC that will ensure sterile jars and a better chance at yields. Any ideas besides Wal-Mart for a good place to get one?


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Invisiblethemills
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Re: My next move...grain substrate (WBS) [Re: Newbie]
    #4441758 - 07/23/05 06:58 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

EBAY
Second Hand Store.


--------------------
There are 2 possible outcomes: If the result confirms the hypothesis, then you've made a measurement. If the result is contrary to the hypothesis, then you've made a discovery.
-Enrico Fermi
_________________________________________________________________________________________________
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InvisibleNewbie
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Re: My next move...grain substrate (WBS) [Re: themills]
    #4441767 - 07/23/05 07:16 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Hey mills, love the sig...that's deep man :stoned:


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Offlinedoc34
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Re: My next move...grain substrate (WBS) [Re: Newbie]
    #4441810 - 07/23/05 07:55 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

WBS Rocks !!!

Good luck--Just be extra clean when it comes to inoculation/print/syringe prep and you will do just fine.


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Re: My next move...grain substrate (WBS) [Re: doc34]
    #4441846 - 07/23/05 08:37 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Lol I was a clean FREAK when I did the PF cakes, I wiped the table, ousted the air, stopped the ac/fan, then I washed my hands with iodine surgical scrub,put on gloves and I basically flamed the needle for each new jar, and only did one hole at a time (replaced the tape immediately after inoculation.)


Edited by Newbie (07/23/05 08:38 AM)


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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: My next move...grain substrate (WBS) [Re: Newbie]
    #4441870 - 07/23/05 09:06 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Only usfull to flame the needle when you first get the syringe, if at all..after that, just wipe with alcohol and inject through the wipe, then pull it back out and throw a bandaid (or tape) over the hole in the tyvek you make.

For a PC, shop ebay. I've gotten 2, that hold 10 quart jars each, for just over 50 bucks shipped to my house. Keep in mind to hold 10 quarts, the PC needs to be like 21-23 quart because its wet volume, not with jars and such..so dont go getting a 4 quart PC or rinky dink ones you usually find at walmart for cheap, cause you'll curse yourself when your doing one quart at a time. Ace Hardware, and those type stores have them and jars too.


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


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OfflineBigBlazer8586
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Re: My next move...grain substrate (WBS) [Re: Newbie]
    #4441913 - 07/23/05 09:34 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

My friend used docs wild bird seed tek and after he did he began reading many people's teks for example, scatmanrav and he specifically says not to simmer the bird seed. I would definitely have to agree, just soak it. He has done both and the bird seed that was simmered got completely stalled and had to be thrown out. Read scatmanrav's grain tek and follow that. It works real well.


--------------------
I am a very sick person. All information contained above this line is fiction. Its all made up bullshit from the inner recesses of my strange mind.


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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: My next move...grain substrate (WBS) [Re: BigBlazer8586]
    #4441938 - 07/23/05 09:48 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Well, I do like to simmer it for 10 minutes, just enough to heat up the water so the seed steams when you drain it, and kill the bacteria that you germinate while soaking before dumping it down your sink. WBS quickly absorbs to much water though. Personally I like to mix rye in with my birdseed though, and that I simmer longer, so it holds more water ten the birdseed. Both of those with some verm added in, and you got a sweet grain mix..


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


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Re: My next move...grain substrate (WBS) [Re: Newbie]
    #4442173 - 07/23/05 12:10 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

NewbieShroomie said:
I'm reading great things about WBS substrates, and it seems like its pretty straight-forward, despite being in the advanced teks section.  I have experience with PF only, but I think I'm going to try a wbs because of it's high yield.  Is there any real secret or is it as simple as it sounds?

PS. I'm studying Doc's WBS tek and the 6T WBS tek.




I'm definitely going to WBS after my first grow is complete...  :grin:


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Offlinedoc34
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Re: My next move...grain substrate (WBS) [Re: scatmanrav]
    #4442406 - 07/23/05 12:59 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

scatmanrav said:
Well, I do like to simmer it for 10 minutes, just enough to heat up the water so the seed steams when you drain it, and kill the bacteria that you germinate while soaking before dumping it down your sink.




Soaking and simmering doesn't kill the endospores that are resistant to heat my friend,lol.
That's why we soak=to germinate those hard to kill endospores!
Why do we simmer? To add the most moisture we can to each individual grain without bursting them(5% is ok).
We PC so we can kill those endospores that we germinated in the soaking process!
Simmering may kill some of them, but, not all of them-if that was the case, we could just do the PF Tek with grains=boil the jars,lol.

Quote:

WBS quickly absorbs to much water though. Personally I like to mix rye in with my birdseed though, and that I simmer longer, so it holds more water ten the birdseed. Both of those with some verm added in, and you got a sweet grain mix..




Sounds like a great mix! :thumbup:

I have no problems with my WBS holding water  :wink:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/4396384/an/0/page/0

Straight WBS cased with 100% Coco-Coir, no verm, no Rye.
Amazing what a little Pennington's Brand Wild Bird Seed and a spore print can do.
:cool: :thumbup:


--------------------


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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: My next move...grain substrate (WBS) [Re: doc34]
    #4442695 - 07/23/05 01:42 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:


Soaking and simmering doesn't kill the endospores that are resistant to heat my friend,lol.
That's why we soak=to germinate those hard to kill endospores!
Why do we simmer? To add the most moisture we can to each individual grain without bursting them(5% is ok).
We PC so we can kill those endospores that we germinated in the soaking process!
Simmering may kill some of them, but, not all of them-if that was the case, we could just do the PF Tek with grains=boil the jars,lol.





Who said anything about endospores? I'm talking LIVE bacteria, you know, thats why the water smells like shit after a 24 hour soak? I'm not fond of dumping gallons and gallons of live bacteria water down my sink. A 10 minute boil will kill anything LIVING in the water so it wont continue to live in the sink. Im not worried about endospores in my drain pipes.

And that is not the only reason to simmer, I also simmer to heat up the grains. I do NOT rinse the seed EVER...it comes out of the bag, into the pot for 24 hours, the pot goes on the stove for 10 minutes, then it goes in the strainer. What the simmering and heating of the seeds does is allow the grains to steam as well as drain. I can do large batches (20 quarts) of grain, strained and ready to load in 20 minutes, because of the water steaming off, instead of having to let it drain for hours.

YOU dont have problems with WBS holding water, neither do I. I dont write teks and advise for people who know whats what. You can tell what your doing, alot of noobs cant. And I can tell you from answering many many people, that everything doesnt work for everyone the same way, sometimes you need to adjust. My mix is very hard to get wrong because of the varying content of seed, if any one ingredient has to much or to little water, there are 2 more ingredients to back it up (verm/wbs/rye), and thats not even including the varied seeds within WBS that make it good by itself. It takes a little more work, but only a little, and it seems to get fewer problems if people do it right and solve many problems for those who are having them. Of course though, always do what works for you..


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


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Offlinedoc34
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Re: My next move...grain substrate (WBS) [Re: scatmanrav]
    #4443549 - 07/23/05 05:21 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Hey, cool beans Bro!

I would like to do a test of the substance that is stuck to the sides of your drain pipe-I would be willing to bet that there are more bacteria and endospores in your drains than in your WBS/grains.

I'm not trying to dis-approve your technique Scat,by any means.

I'm just trying to explain.

Soaking the grains does not add enough water to carry them through a decent flush(if you add verm, yes)-not like I get any how.Soaking is just a precautionary step to help eliminate the bacteria and endospores that are heat resistant.

Simmering adds the perfect amount of water to each grain-each grain holds a different amount moisture(no two grains are the same).The only way you can get the perfect water content is if you knew how much water each individual grain holds-you can't, so simmering gets you as close as you can get.Yes, you can measure out the water and add it before Pc'ing-but you are still guessing.Simmering eliminates the guess work.By simmering, You are forcing each grain to hold as much water as it can without bursting.

Rinsing-I do this to clean the WBS of any and all unwanted additives like "Bird-Kote" and what ever else that is sprayed or added to the grains.I don't want to eat pesticides or bird-kote or whatever they add to keep the grains from spoiling/molding during growth/storage.

I have used my tek faithfully and to this day I have never had a contamed or stalled jar! Never!
My jars colonize from multispore in 10-14 days(quarts).
From Liquid Culture in 6-9 days!
They rip through the WBS very fast.But different strains colonise at different times.

I'm not trying to push my tek to get people to use it-I know for a fact that it works and it works so well that I use it everytime.
I have tried adding water prior to pc'ing = dry jars or too wet jars.
I have tried just soaking them = dried out.
Simmering = perfect. As long as you drain them properly they will be perfect.
But, don't believe me-------I'm a newbie too,lol.

Any how, use what works for you-I do!

Doc


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Offlinedoc34
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Re: My next move...grain substrate (WBS) [Re: doc34]
    #4443583 - 07/23/05 05:31 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Oh and BTW----They are called "Bacterial endospores".

Just so you know VVVVVVVV

http://www-micro.msb.le.ac.uk/video/endospores.html
http://www.arches.uga.edu/~pscantie/definition.html
http://www.answers.com/topic/endospore
http://aem.asm.org/cgi/content/abstract/71/7/3556


Definition :
"bacterial endospore"
A dormant body which certain Gram-positive bacteria can develop within them under conditions of stress (like lack of nutrients), which is highly resistant to harsh environmental conditions and which can develop into a new, live bacterium once conditions are good again.

Soaking germinates them.
Simmering may kill a few that are not heat resistant.
PC'ing kills them all!

I can post more if you want.


Doc


--------------------


Edited by doc34 (07/23/05 05:53 PM)


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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: My next move...grain substrate (WBS) [Re: doc34]
    #4443653 - 07/23/05 05:56 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

No "they" arent called bacteria endospores, I'm not talking about "them". Im talking about BACTERIA, not endospores. It actually goes

Soaking: Germinates endospores
Simmering: Heats seed, kills LIVE bacteria in the WATER that is present after a 24 hour soak, and yes of course adds water
PCing: Kills live bacteria and molds in the SEED (and water within of course), as well as spores

You seem to be trying to convince me that simmering is the way to go, you must have missed that I simmer all of my seed because (for one) soaking doesnt add enough water IMO, especially if your fruiting off of them. I of course PC everything too, because I'm not saying that this sterilizes anything. I'm not sure what your trying convince me of, I wasnt even talking to you to begin with. I was talking to someone that I said NOT to simmer birdseed, which I didnt. What I said was, it isnt needed IF you follow my tek for fruiting grains where the seed is 50-75% rye, and verm is added, THEN simmering the WBS isnt needed because water doesnt have to be added, theres plenty in the other seeds. HOWEVER I STILL simmer them JUST to kill the LIVE bacteria in the water that goes down my drain, and to get the seed steaming so it drains quicker--besides the whole adding water to it thing which isnt important if your follow everything else I do (which is what the person I replied to, was refering to).

I can post more if you want too :smirk:


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


Edited by scatmanrav (07/23/05 06:11 PM)


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Offlinedoc34
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Re: My next move...grain substrate (WBS) [Re: scatmanrav]
    #4443717 - 07/23/05 06:20 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Well excuse me for intruding upon you.

You obviously have all the answers for the newbies, so I will stay out of this one.

My appologies Scat--your doing a fine job!

I just thought that this was an "Open Forum" for the discussion of Mushroom Cultivation.But I am obviously mistaken-So I will take my knowledge elsewhere.

Peace,Love, And Shrooms Dude!

Doc

Ps-I wasn't trying to convince anyone of anything.I was trying to explain the real deal about Soaking/simmering.
And since he was studying my TEK-I have a right to explain the procedures of it,lol.

But, hey-we are all here for the love of mushrooms right?
At least I am.

So, I'm sorry if interupted this discusion = won't happen again, my friend.


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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: My next move...grain substrate (WBS) [Re: doc34]
    #4443756 - 07/23/05 06:32 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Yes but you made multiple posts to me, saying things like
"Simmering = perfect. As long as you drain them properly they will be perfect.
But, don't believe me" You didnt interupt the post, and you can post, but I was talking to the person right above me, who commented on what I said...so yes the reply you replied to was a conversation with just that person, above me (not the thread starter).

And the whole post was explaining something I already knew and I thought was explain in the tek. Then you make a second post right after "telling" me what bacteria endospores are and what the purpose for things are as if I'm not sure, or that I dont believe you. No where did I say anything about you posting what you post or your tek, I didnt even disagree with you. You posted everything you posted about what simmering is for in response to my post, which was just saying that I DO simmer, unlike the person above me said.

When someone goes "Scat doesnt simmer"
Then I go "yes I do, even if not to add extra water, to kill bacteria and heat the seed"
Then you reply to me saying "not to disprove scats tek but simmering works, but you dont have to believe me (like I didnt already)" and you go on to try and further explain to me why simmering works, again like I didnt believe or understand you or like thats against what I do.

All I was trying to do was tell you that it IS what I do, and everything you said PROVES my technique, not disproves it.

Now it is seeming to me it was more of a general post giving info to everyone else reading that, if that is the case, then I'm sorry...but you directed it at me by replying to me and saying "not to disprove me" and the "and they are called endospores" ect ect...directing things at me that I already know, as if I dont know them, or as if your saying the oppisite then me, when your saying the same thing as me..will get this kind of response in attempt to explain. That is all.

Sorry if there are hard feelings none here, just some discussion..


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


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Offlinedoc34
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Re: My next move...grain substrate (WBS) [Re: scatmanrav]
    #4443810 - 07/23/05 06:52 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

No hard feelings Scat,none at all my friend,lol.

It is just that when people post statements about a certain topic,some people may not see them the way they are intended = confusing.

I was just trying to explain further-and give a little more explaination of the process.

You know what it takes to cultivate(I have seen your posts)and I also know what it takes(I have seen my own posts--lmao!)to cultivate.

Together we could do...................................WOW!
(Doc invisions the whole world trippin on Scats/Doc's shrooms!)

lmao
No problems Scat!

newbie:
Yes, WBS is great!And every Tek that is archived here at the Shroomery works!
If they didn't work, Anno and the Shroom Crew would not Archive them--finding the one that works great for you is where all the work is.
Good Luck and Many Happy Shrooms to ya!

Scat----Keep up the great work by posting helpfull advice!

Doc


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OfflineEquilibriuM
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Re: My next move...grain substrate (WBS) [Re: doc34]
    #4444141 - 07/23/05 08:32 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

WOW THAT WAS INTENSE! LOL




WELL IM NOT GONNA DO EITHER OF YOUR WBS TEKS! SO THERE!

:smile: just playin... keep up the good work.


--------------------
HELP!!!!!!!!!


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