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Invisiblebadchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,372
Re: This is ridiculous... [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4429490 - 07/20/05 05:15 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

psilocyberin said:

None of these even have any statistics. It is just a research group saying "yeah, well we put 12 kids on amphetamines and they did better at math".




Actually, all the original research papers DO have statistics. (these are the references beginning with www.ncbi....etc.). If we found the peer-reviewed article for the statistics on crime (the last link) I'd be willing to bet it had statistics as well.

Quote:

psilocyberin said: And the report about neurotransmitters was highly cloudy and vague and didnt really say anything exact....summary:"we just know that there are chemicals in the brain, and all these chemicals affect us in some way"...




This link by "Dr. Carver" does however, need to be referenced (as you stated). But keep in mind the paper was written for non-professionals in attempt to convey information they would actually understand.

Quote:

psilocyberin said:You know, sitting down one-on-one with a kid and helping them with math also has shown to improve math scores.



I'll assume you have no evidence for this? If you've ever tried teaching or tutoring you'll realize that some kids/individuals simply "don't get it" no matter how much time you spend with them.

Quote:

psilocyberin said:It is pure laziness on parents and teachers parts to allow the distribution of schedule 2 drugs to 6 year olds to fix a problem.




Perhaps you should volunteer your time to help then? FOr those that have never attempted teaching before it's obviously "laziness".

In general I agree with you on this point, but it's idealistic. The fact of the matter is that there is a lack of adequate teachers available. You cannot expect a teacher to be able to give individual attention to a group of 20-30 children. Throw in the awesome incentive of a 30K per year salary and the result is not enough teachers and not enough trained professionals to deal with the problem.

Quote:

psilocyberin said:These are children, and they act like children, they dont need to be on stimulants and speed. Adderall is quickly becoming a very popular and abused drug, especially in colleges. Why is it that my college friends can get a high similar to cocaine, with a similar dose they prescribe to even children?




Because the drug acts differently on different individuals. Presumably because you're friends don't have ADHD and have a different brain chemistry which causes them to react differently.

Quote:

psilocyberin said:Oh, its not a big deal... we are only giving them a LITTLE heroin, just enough to make them draw better, since my child has ACD (abstract conceptualization disorder)... now my child can play like miles davis! thank you heroin!




I'll assume you realize heroin and adderall have different mechanisms of action. Apples to oranges.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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OfflineSneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
 User Gallery
Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
Re: This is ridiculous... [Re: badchad]
    #4429607 - 07/20/05 05:49 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

I have tutored people before. It is frustrating as hell. But what kind of a teacher are you that says, "oh, i give up, go take some amphetamines!". There is no one in this world with the ability to communicate that cannot be taught to grasp things.
Our school system and design of society are not all encompassing, they dont make it available to suit everyones individual learning needs. But drugging them into conformity is so robotic.
If we spent a quarter of the money spent on psychopharmaceutical advertising, or a quarter of the psychopharmaceutical lobbying on teachers, i am willing to bet our test scores (since isnt that what REALLY matters /cynicism) would increase.
Im not saying I have the answers, and I ultimatly know that this drugging will continue, as well as underpaid, apathetic teachers, because modern psychiatry and psychology is so ingrained into our culture and is taught as and based off as an infallible and completly accurate explanation for the function of the brain, when in fact it is simply a theory.
There is no irrefutable proof so far that chamical imbalances cause ADD/ADHD. Even the president of the APA was quoted as saying this. I started this thread out with a psychiatrist saying "mental health is a bit of a crap shoot.
I am willing to bet that parents arent even told that adderall is an amphetamine. Im willing to bet that a majority of parents dont know that adderall is an amphetamine. If we replaced the word Adderall with amphetamine, you would see a drastic fall in sales.

It is all about the dollar with the pharmaceutical companies. Do you really think they are carrying out science and study in the name of advancement of culture, society and well being/health?

People like speed, or any stimulants, it is part of our culture to be hopped up on some stimulant. Companies are just finding ways to subvert the law and morality of society to make a big buck.


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Invisiblezorbman
blarrr
Male

Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,952
Re: This is ridiculous... [Re: Phluck]
    #4430003 - 07/20/05 07:15 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

What was his proof? Am I to believe that because his book was an impressive 400 pages, his logic and evidence was impeccable?

Please provide any evidence you have to dispute Dr. Gofman's findings. Thank you.

1998 study from the New England Journal of Medicine found that 96% of peer reviewed articles had financial ties to the drug they were studying.

Exactly my point... the medical journals are the ones investigating the issue and trying to deal with it.

That was back in 1998- the proposed changes you mentioned are more recent. But past history can be instructive in light of current proposals. Keep in mind that NEJM represented only one medical journal owning up to the truth TO its colleagues in its OWN publication, not to the public at large. I had never heard of this conflict of interest until I dug it up recently. What difference does a disclosure make if hardly anyone is aware of it? Do you not find the fact that 96% of peer reviewed articles had financial ties to the drug they were studying troubling?

The current proposed change sounds good in theory, but I seriously doubt it will happen in practice. A common tactic in any beauracracy is to form committees and "investigate" to death until the public heat is off, then return to business as usual. Some seem to have faith it this process; I don't in light of past history as I have clearly laid out. They didn't follow their self-proposed guidelines before, what makes you think they will now? Five of the most futile words in the English language are, "This time will be different."

So far you have failed to provide any statistical evidence to support your opinion that chemotherapy is effective.

The greatest authority I'm aware of on the numbers behind chemotherapy is biostatistician, Dr Uhlrich Abel who I mentioned in my previous post. He said the following after an exhaustive study of this subject, "Success of most chemotherapies is appalling. There is no scientific evidence for its ability to extend in any appreciable way the lives of patients suffering from the most common organic cancer. Chemotherapy for malignancies too advanced for surgery, which accounts for 80% of all cancers, is a scientific wasteland."

Dr. Alan C Nixon, former president of the American Chemical Society had this to say about the effectiveness of chemotherapy, "As a chemist trained to interpret data, it is incomprehensible to me that physicians can ignore the clear evidence that chemotherapy does much, much more harm than good."

There you have it- chemotherapy has done nothing for 80% of all cancers and 80% of chemotherapy administered was completely worthless.

You've read the accounts of a small handful of doctors who disagree with the use of chemotherapy (none of them are oncologists, of course, they're all speaking outside of their field of expertise)

The raw data of chemotherapy statistics are available and trained biostaticians can and have analyze(d) them. Is it really surprising that few oncologists have spoken out? It would cost them their jobs.

Want to hear what an insider has to say on this subject? John Bailer served for twenty years on the staff of the National Cancer Institute and as editor of its journal. In July 1990 he received the prestigious MacArthur Fellowship. He had this to say about orthodox cancer treatment, "My overall assessment is that the national cancer programme must be judged a qualified failure."

"We have poured vast amounts of money into the search for cancer cures over a very long period of time. We've brought some of the world's best research minds to bear on these problems. We've given it our best shot. It's time to admit it hasn't worked and start down another track."

http://www.users.muohio.edu/baileraj/

When someone stops chemo and starts eating well, they will always start to feel healthier and have increased energy, even if the cancer is growing back and destroying them. The cancer is a part of themselves, things that normally nourish your body and keep it healthy also feed the cancer. Attacking cancer is literally attacking part of yourself.

Your characterization of cancer is largely correct, but take a close look at the last two sentences. That is only true if you are only attacking the cancer with chemotherapy. Chemotherapy doesn't discriminate; It kills both cancer cells and healthy cells. There are some things that nourish the body and attack the cancer without damaging normal cells. For instance, The American Cancer Society even admits this is their new book, "The American Cancer Society's Guide to Complementary and Alternative Cancer Methods". It states on page 316 that Ellagic Acid [found in certain berries] has been proven to cause apoptosis (natural cell death) in cancer cells without harming healthy cells as chemotherapy does.

This has not been widely reported in the media. Note that there is no potential drug tie-in here since berries are readily available to the public in forests, people's backyards, and some grocery stores. That is just one example I found after a short search on the internet. Imagine how many more natural, non-toxic treatments are out there.

http://www.cancer.org/docroot/CRI/CRI_3_1.asp

Chemotherapy has long proven itself to be the most effective method of treating cancer. Not vitmins, vegetable shakes, magic potions or healing crystals. There are hundreds of people with books to sell tauting naturopathic methods of curing cancer, but none of them have any evidence to back them up other than anecdotes

And there probably won't be much scientific evidence forthcoming on substances that treat cancer naturally since there is little profit potential in this area. You can't patent a natural substance. No patent, no check. No check, no boat cruise to Cancun.

There are certainly disreputable individuals selling quack cures and books. There are also many people recommending natural treatments that don't stand to make a dime off their advice. Their only motivation is to help people. Compare someone dispensing free advice or even selling a $30 book to the money involved in the cancer industry. When you walk in their door you are worth probably $300,000 to them. Which group is more driven by profit and does all that money affect the way they view and treat cancer?

If you'd like, I can put you in contact with my father, who is a scientist, and the director of research at a cancer research institute. Since the vast majority of his funding comes through government grants, and he does not directly study the use of drugs, only the genetic origins of cancer, perhaps you'll find his word more credible than the scientists you seem to think make up the majority of cancer research.

I may indeed have some questions for your father- he sounds like an honorable man. But I will do so in a separate topic since I've already been complicit in taking this one astray of it's original goal, and I apologize to psilocyberin for my part in that.

Since you mentioned your father, I should probably mention that my own father is suffering from cancer. He was diagnosed earlier this year. My only interest is seeing that man return to health. To that end I will research any book, challenge any health care practitioner, and move heaven and earth to ensure his recovery. The main thing to me is not what credentials someone has, but "Does it work?". I follow the maxim, "Let truth be your authority, not authority your truth." I hope that orthodox medicine will start putting more effort and money into researching non-toxic methods of cancer treatment for the good of all those suffering from cancer. They should follow the truth where it leads them rather than the money.


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch


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Invisiblezorbman
blarrr
Male

Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,952
Re: This is ridiculous... [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4430569 - 07/20/05 09:41 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

There is no irrefutable proof so far that chamical imbalances cause ADD/ADHD.

That does seem to be the case. ADD/ADHD may be associated with a chemical imbalance in the brain, but it doesn't automatically follow that the imbalance caused the condition. I would be interested in seeing any studies demonstrating a causative effect.

Perhaps the condition could be a result of someone thinking a certain way over time and their brain responding by developing those parts of the brain that correspond with those thoughts/behaviors and attenuating those that do not. It has, for instance, been shown that if someone spends a lot of time focusing on music, the parts of the brain associated with music will develop. Maybe it is the same way with ADD/ADHD.

Perhaps more money should be spent on looking into non-drug angles of this condition. The pharms would lose a lot of money, but if they really care about public health rather than profit they shouldn't have a problem with it, right?


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch


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OfflineSneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
 User Gallery
Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
Re: This is ridiculous... [Re: zorbman]
    #4436846 - 07/22/05 02:21 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

:handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth:

a standing ovation!


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