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OfflineTurricaN
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Synaethesia - Seeing the music
    #4433653 - 07/21/05 03:50 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I was just wondering if anyone knew where there might be more info on Syneathesia experiences with shrooms and other hallucigens? I've searched the forums, but only found three matches that were nothing like what I was looking for, and my Google searches only describe the condition in basic terms for people who have it in every day life.

I was wondering because on my first shroom trip, which wasn't very strong (only 17.5gm fresh), I smoked some weed towards the end of the trip and had a very intense synaethesia experience, seeing alien figures, faces, Japanese Kanja and brightly coloured flashing rainbow patterns all as though projected onto the wall in front of me. When I say bright, I really do mean it was as bright as day.

I wanted to repeat the experience a few weeks afterwards, and tried a much stronger dose of mushrooms figuring that this would work, but I didn't have any weed. Whilst the trip was a whole magnitude stronger, the visuals weren't really anything to speak of. Just random colours and patterns that weren't dependant on the sound at all, and they were pretty faint and kinda floated about randomly.

However, I've also noticed that when I get really stoned on weed (without shrooms), if I look very careful at lights and detail in objects, things tend to pulse, change colour or shift around to the music. These things aren't bright, but are definitely there. My tolerance to weed is very low as I only use it once every couple of weeks, if that even.

Although I haven't confirmed it yet, my theory, at least for me, is that shrooms bring out the actual colours and patterns, whilst the weed is then able to take these patterns and organise them into shapes, colours and images based on the audio senses. Without the mushrooms however, the effect is essentially still there, but without the patterns, there's not much for the weed to work with so they effect really isn't visible.

I am going to try this again on Saturday, as the synaethesia is one of my ideals for tripping, but I would like to know if it's dangerous? I've read about HPPD and am wondering what the risk is, if my theory is correct, that such vivid hallucinations or synaethesia could persist screwing me up permanently? Also, is this a common effect for combining shrooms and weed? Anyone care to share their experiences of pyschodelically induced synaethesia?

Should be interesting to hear what anyone has to say in regards to this.
Cheers!


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OfflineDestruKtiKon
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Re: Synaethesia - Seeing the music [Re: TurricaN]
    #4434921 - 07/21/05 08:15 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

This effect is quite prominent for me on most drugs, especially psycedelics. LSD semms to be the best for 'seeing' and 'feeling music' ie: sitting in a chair being  crushed into the floor by infinite invisible waves of sonic intensity while an infinity sized vortex ebbs and flows with the music. Music comprehension is also increased by using psycedelics. If you have worries about getting screwed up permanently, my advice to you is to not take these drugs at all. I've also found that trying to recreate prevoius trips dosen't usually work and you usually end up dissapointed, or find out something new about yourself/reality/whatever. :smile: Also, you should try not to define what certain drugs can and cannot do.


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Edited by DestruKtiKon (07/21/05 08:16 PM)


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OfflineDrink_Punk_Soda
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Re: Synaethesia - Seeing the music [Re: TurricaN]
    #4436429 - 07/22/05 02:50 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I hate to say it, but seeing pulsing patterns (even if they are in your third eye  :grin:) isn't synesthesia.  Unless what you where seeing was the physical manifestation of the sound itself.

When I take shrooms, I frequently feel "colored" emotions, like someone will say something with serious overtones and it will "feel" red, or an intelligent conversation "feels" blue.  I also spent one trip struggling with an intense "emotion" to walk in a certain direction.  I guess my brain associated a need or the concept of "good" with "north" (or wherever it was.)

Another good example- an ex-housemate of mine ate a jalapeno while tripping, and freaked out because "it tasted way too loud!"  It took me the longest time to figure out what he meant by shouting "turn it down!" and pointing to his face. :lol:


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OfflineTurricaN
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Re: Synaethesia - Seeing the music [Re: Drink_Punk_Soda]
    #4437671 - 07/22/05 12:58 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Drink_Punk_Soda said:
I hate to say it, but seeing pulsing patterns (even if they are in your third eye  :grin:) isn't synesthesia.  Unless what you where seeing was the physical manifestation of the sound itself.



I don't exactly understand what you're saying.  What I saw (on shrooms + weed) were vivid, bright, flashing patterns that matched the feel, mood, rytham and even vibration of the music exactly (there was minimal mind-fuck) and covered my entire room, almost like living inside the most amazing computer music visualisation program ever created.  The volume even directly affected the intensity of the visuals, so as the songs faded out, the visuals dissapeared.  Is that not synaethesia?

Either way, synaethesia or not, it's still something that I would like to experience again.


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OfflineJabbawaya

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Re: Synaethesia - Seeing the music [Re: TurricaN]
    #4437724 - 07/22/05 01:12 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Synaesthesia is usually much more characteristic of LSD than psilocybin.


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OfflineDrink_Punk_Soda
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Re: Synaethesia - Seeing the music [Re: TurricaN]
    #4437765 - 07/22/05 01:23 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Synesthesia is defined as a shift in senses, ie. seeing sound, hearing colors, tasting scent, etc.  Seeing vibrant, pulsating patterns that respond to music is a badass hallucination (and I bet it was awesome, as I've had similar experiences) but unless you feel that you were perceiving the images with your ears, and not your eyes, it's not synesthesia.

Good luck recreating the experience though, that sounds like a heck of a time!  :grin:


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Re: Synaethesia - Seeing the music [Re: Jabbawaya]
    #4437794 - 07/22/05 01:32 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

hppd is funny because it means that the patient is cured of the illusion of consistent reality, but it is a disorder because the person wants to be as he was before.

before entheogen we are all trained up to isolate our senses and to act out only our fully rehearsed routines - at least in public.

only in the gym or the bathroom or in our dreams to we tend to try out something new, or let the fences down between our senses.

well, study mysticism or take some entheogen and unlearn separation; and - this can be a big plus in your life, or you can let it be the hppd syndrome, synaesthesia becomes a problem when forgetting that the fences between senses were erected in your infancy as the first part of socialization.

well we had to do it and we can do it again, But I kind of like a bit of overlap, or bleed accross these narrow little channels I had grown accustomed to.


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Re: Synaethesia - Seeing the music [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4444913 - 07/24/05 12:12 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

though i can't say i ever really hallucinated from shrooms i can definitely say I've had visual hallucinations (or more accurately alterations) with really good weed and jaras!
a friends face got totally messed up visually as if reality floated towards a fourth dimension (depth?)
a friends face looked exactly like another friend
my face morphed in the mirror again in a fourth dimension kinda way

my second (and last) experience with shrooms was 3.5 grams and i had no kind of visual alteration at all and i suspect that smoking weed might have generated the effect...
i think shrooms heighten the senses a lot and weed help us separate the senses and concentrate on our subconscious to generate hallucinations (but i haven't had the chance to check this out so i might be just talking bullshit) what i DO know though is that weed defently helps separate and unlearn the basic conditioning of senses!


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OfflineDaytripper420
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Re: Synaethesia - Seeing the music [Re: Simisu]
    #4444987 - 07/24/05 12:37 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

yeah ive never had halucinations on shrooms but i took some dramamine a couple days ago and i saw ants on the ceiling and a tic in the toilet. you know thos ceiling tiles that have those small holes in them well i saw the holes start moving around like ants and i thought they were ants until someone told me they did not see ants and i saw multicolored pictures on the wall as well. it was some crazy shit


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OfflineDrink_Punk_Soda
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Re: Synaethesia - Seeing the music [Re: Daytripper420]
    #4445002 - 07/24/05 12:41 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Dramamine, ugh.. I took two of 'em on a plane trip once, huge mistake.  I don't even get motion sickness, I just thought it'd knock me out for most of the trip.  Well it was a four hour trip, and I didn't feel anything until I was on land again.  Then I could barely stay awake or function for the rest of the evening.  It sucked.

I can't imagine the kiddies who eat a whole package of the stuff and stay awake to hallucinate.  That stuff wants to put you down so hard, it's no wonder your brain freaks out when you try to fight it. 

:thumbdown:


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OfflineDaytripper420
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Re: Synaethesia - Seeing the music [Re: Drink_Punk_Soda]
    #4445020 - 07/24/05 12:47 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

dude thats what i was thinking when i was tripping i was like i know why you halucintate cause everythings pretty normal but you get really tired and you really do TRIP your ASS OFF im tellin you i have the kelidescope images and everything man it was amazing. my friend said he was seein faces come up from the ground and shit but i did get pretty tired at first it goes away once you start tripping though seriosly if no one can get there hands on any psycadelics and wanna trip take 15 dramamine and youll be set


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OfflineDrink_Punk_Soda
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Re: Synaethesia - Seeing the music [Re: Daytripper420]
    #4445132 - 07/24/05 01:14 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Drink Punk Soda said:
I can't imagine the kiddies who eat a whole package of the stuff and stay awake to hallucinate.




Quote:

Daytripper420 said:
seriosly if no one can get there hands on any psycadelics and wanna trip take 15 dramamine and youll be set




Thanks for being a perfect example! By the way, Dimenhydrinate, the active chemical in dramamine (or similar products) can cause brain, stomach, liver, kidney, and nervous system damage when taken in above suggested doses (1-2 tabs.) Erowid is your friend.


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Re: Synaethesia - Seeing the music [Re: TurricaN]
    #4446100 - 07/24/05 08:19 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

TurricaN, I would say that what you experienced in your description WAS indeed a form of synaesthesia. It is widely accepted that synaesthesia can be induced in several other ways as well as actually having the 'disorder'. These include strokes, schizophrenia, sensory deprivation and yup, you guessed it, recreational / hallucinogenic drugs. Although the only 'true' synaesthesia is that which is experienced by those 'with' synaesthesia, in that they have had the hallucinations from birth and the hallucinations are robust, meaning that the hallucination is the same for any given stimulus each time. What you experienced was a temporary synaesthesic state.

The questions that you asked about the specific effects of shrooms and weed and other drugs on this induced synaesthesic state, are hard questions to answer. Infact they may never be answered, given that research with these drugs on humans is banned in most parts of the world.

Psychologists etc. are actually still only just beginning to develop theories on 'normal' synaesthesia as it is, let alone the 'artificial' versions. There are several different theories about the cause of the disorder that are still being debated and further researched. The one that I personally think is most applicable to the psychedelic induced synaesthesic state is Richard Cytowics 'Limbic mediation theory'.

The basic idea of it is that Cytowic believes that synaesthesia is a process that occurs in the limbic system. The limbic system is an area / process in the brain which gathers all of the individual aspects of our reality (vision, sound, touch, memories, thoughts etc) and joins them into the cohesive whole that we experience as 'normal realiy'. It is where, for instance, we can hear a cat meow and see the cat open its mouth at the same time and be able to associate the two so that we see the cat as meowing.

In synaesthesic subjects, it is thought that some of the process of the limbic system are supressed, causing them to not properly fulfill their purpose. So, for example, rather than having the cats meow 'glued' to the visual image of the cats mouth opening, the neuronal activity generated by the audio stimulation of the cats meow accidentally 'spills over' into the visual system and actually generates a visual image other than what your eyes are seeing.

The same theory could perhaps start to explain non sound-induced psychedelic hallucinations, in that they could infact still be a synaesthesic process, except a synaesthesia of a thought or memory, rather than a physical stimulus.

And for a more personal perspective, I can totally relate to the description of your experience. I too found that smoking some bud is often what triggers a synaesthesic experience, especially if your on another psychedelic. For me the combination is much more potent with phenethylamines (cactus, for example) than tryptamines (shrooms, acid) although it does occur with those too. I've experienced extremely vivid and detailed visuals being build directly from music. Elements of tone, rythm, tempo, and sound combinations all come into play to translate themselves into a visual masterpiece. I've also had experiences of this visual reality becoming a physically touchable realty or at least a 3D kind of landscape that one can be 'in'.

Synaesthesia is really an interesting thing, I think that psychology and humanity as a whole will have learned something good before all is said and done on the subject... thanks for sharing your experiences people! I always love to read about peoples crazy little mind glitches...


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OfflineTranceport
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Re: Synaethesia - Seeing the music [Re: zee_werp]
    #4449142 - 07/25/05 02:14 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Synaesthesia is very difficult to explain because it defies the default reality. Although I can't say definitively, I don't think you experienced synaesthesia. It sounds to me as if you had the more typical experience of music guiding the hallucinations.

I have experienced synaesthesia on two occasions: once on 2 grams of mushrooms and when I tried LSD. While on mushrooms, I ceased to perceive the music as a sound. It became a visual stimulus. The time it happened on LSD the music became a physical entity that was a "force" exerted on my body that made me physically move around without me having any real control over it. In both cases I really no longer "heard" the music as a sound.


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Re: Synaethesia - Seeing the music [Re: Tranceport]
    #4449506 - 07/25/05 04:31 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

That is not the definition of synaesthesia. Synesthetes still experience the stimulus in its original form as well as in the illusory form, at least in all of the patients that I have read about.

If you want to use the strict definition, then no he did not experience synaesthesia, because synaesthesia is a condition that a person has all the time and the only people who are really experiencing it are the people who actually 'have' the condition. As in they have it all the time and it is not the result of any drug.

But thats why I used the looser term, a 'temporary synaesthesic state', to describe what TurricaN said he experienced. I don't see why you don't think that this was a synaesthesic experience, Tranceport. He said "What I saw (on shrooms + weed) were vivid, bright, flashing patterns that matched the feel, mood, rytham and even vibration of the music exactly". This sounds like a perfect description of a synaesthesic experience to me. Synaesthesia on hallucinogens is not a rare occurance.

Infact I would be more inclined to describe TurricaN's experience as synaesthesia rather than what you claimed to be your synaesthesia, which sounds to me more like being pretty damn twisted and just getting lost / caught in your hallucinations. If you couldn't hear the music anymore, then how did you know that what you were seeing was being made by the music?


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Re: Synaethesia - Seeing the music [Re: zee_werp]
    #4450270 - 07/25/05 01:37 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

I would have to agree with zee-werp. How is music becoming a visual stimulus any different from exactly what Turrican says happened to him?
How could you say it is only synaethesia when the stimulus dissapears and is no longer there???

My senses always fuse on a sufficient dose and then I no longer care if I am seeing, hearing, feeling, or touching. At one point, my theory on what psychedelics did to one was to meld all the senses together. Of course, that was many years ago and as anyone knows the very nature of the psychedelic itself changes what you think it is. In other words observing creates.


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Re: Synaethesia - Seeing the music [Re: TurricaN]
    #4451107 - 07/25/05 05:11 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

I have been experiencing the same exact things since I mixed shrooms with weed on several occasions. Both intensification of visuals on shroom trips and having some shroom-like visuals while tripping only on weed.

In fact I started a similar topic (though with less scientific apprach :smile: last year. Here it is:

http://www.shroomery.org/archives/showfl...rue#Post3438667


I think it is archived, so you might have to re-log in order to see it.


Edited by alphaone (07/25/05 05:12 PM)


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Re: Synaethesia - Seeing the music [Re: alphaone]
    #4453963 - 07/26/05 03:59 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

alphaone, I went and checked out that post, it doesn't sound like synaesthesia that you are describing, but rather just an intensified experience when combining drugs.

Synaesthesia is a disorder where a persons senses get 'cross wired' so to speak, meaning that they for example can see sound (most common), taste words, feel smells, etc. any combination of the senses is possible and sometimes people can have synaesthesia in more than two sensory modalities at once.


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OfflineGinseng1
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Re: Synaethesia - Seeing the music [Re: zee_werp]
    #4454107 - 07/26/05 04:34 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Synaesthesia is beautiful in moderation.


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