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Offlinealsey
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Re: quantum physics, and inequality. [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4434478 - 07/21/05 04:44 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

psilocyberin said:
well, the whole point of the theory is to say that existence comes about through an imbalance, or inequality in the function of the universe.




circular logic. you have the conclusion (the universe) in the premise (inequality in the universe).


--------------------
"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana

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Offlinealsey
meet me in thedreamtimewater...

Registered: 02/17/05
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Re: quantum physics, and inequality. [Re: alsey]
    #4434496 - 07/21/05 04:48 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

i don't see the connection between this magic equation and quantum physics.


--------------------
"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana

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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: quantum physics, and inequality. [Re: alsey]
    #4436790 - 07/22/05 02:10 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

ouch alsey.... but let me amend the theory.

First, i call it an inequality, because an equation is balanced, and inequality isnt, nor does it have a solution or balanced equation.
The variables i was talking about were things such as the 4 forces, superposition, and the "popping" in/out of existence of things like positrons.
The inequality would be the numeric expression of the entire function of the universe(s). It would be THE formula to explain how everything interacts, and maintains a physical balance. In no way do i even have the capability to delve any further or speculate as to what this formula could look like, but it is possible.
Recursion is a good example, but not entirly exactly what i am envisioning as the formula, but lets take a look at if this formula had this property. Trendal said that it doesnt take 20 times a second, just whichever observer, or person is plugging in numbers on the X. Now in a computer program, like Qbasic, when you set the size of a circle to equal x=x+1, you make it grow to infinity unless you place a stopping point like "if x=100 then x=0". I dont know the speed at which Qbasic plugs these numebrs into the equations, but it is somewhere around 20 times per second.
The frequency in which the universe would plug these numbers into the inequality or recursive formula is an unknown as well. Since what is the speed at which the universe functions? does anyone know? would we call it the speed of time? time is purely analog, so it is infinitly divisible into units.
But if i ever did attempt to lay out some figures to form such an inequality, i would use plancks time 10(raised to the -33) as the unit of time in which the numbers are plugged.

When i speak of existence through inequality, i am talking about a constant change and motion. If a universe was created with a perfectly balanced equation, there would be no propulsion, or catalyst to keep things at a constant ebb and flow. Much like the problem (thusly an impossiblity thanks to thermodynamic laws) with perpetual motion, we are going up against the walls of laws within the universe, and these laws are constants, and can be expressed as balanced, never changing and infallible equations, but if one were to be able to keep a constant "bending" of these laws, with an ebb and flow, one could most likely make a perpetual motion pendulum or whatever. The universe(s) however, as a whole, have the ability to (within the speculations of this theory) "bend" these laws, and like mathematician does, add 13 to this side, and subtract 13 from the other side, which never really changes the balance of the equation... this can be some sort of explanation for positrons popping in and out of existence.

Im having trouble explaining this, but here is the best way i can describe this theory: imagine a machine which its only driving force is the solving of an impossible to solve formula. By constantly changing and moving things and gears about to balance out or solve the formula, it gives itself propulsion, but any moment at which it actually solves it, it will be in complete stasis, because no change needs to come about to solve it anymore.


***(to phluck) I dont need to have a physics degree to theorize about anything, especially if it is only to be presented in a philosophy forum, and to only function as brain fun. I dont have any ambitions of seeing this in QP quarterly, or have physicists peer-reviewing it. So lighten up and either have fun with it, or dont, and stop bringing whatever personal enmity you have of me into every single thread I post. Everything you do comes from the "School of Swami", in which you make snide comments or strawman arguments regarding me and my characteristics to attempt to debunk my input. I can tell everything that is posted by me, you read with the intent purpose of finding a way to conflict with it, without ever reading it void of personal bias towards me.***

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Offlinealsey
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Re: quantum physics, and inequality. [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4437004 - 07/22/05 04:14 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

psilocyberin said:
First, i call it an inequality, because an equation is balanced, and inequality isnt, nor does it have a solution or balanced equation.
The variables i was talking about were things such as the 4 forces, superposition, and the "popping" in/out of existence of things like positrons.




let me clear a few things up.

superposition and spontaneous creation of particles are pretty well understood phenomena. these things happen because of the fundamental forces - more phenomena.

a phenomenon is not a variable. it is described by variables (such as energy, position, etc), but it is not a variable itself. it is not even a number; we describe it as a relation between numbers.

there is also the circular logic problem. you are using the fundamental forces (which exist in the universe) to explain the existence of the universe. before the universe, there are no fundamental forces.

Quote:


The inequality would be the numeric expression of the entire function of the universe(s). It would be THE formula to explain how everything interacts, and maintains a physical balance. In no way do i even have the capability to delve any further or speculate as to what this formula could look like, but it is possible.




it has already been speculated on, its called the unified theory. the equations of the m-theories are probably pretty close to it. however, such an equation does not explain how anything came into existence, it just explains how existing things work.

Quote:


Recursion is a good example, but not entirly exactly what i am envisioning as the formula, but lets take a look at if this formula had this property. Trendal said that it doesnt take 20 times a second, just whichever observer, or person is plugging in numbers on the X. Now in a computer program, like Qbasic, when you set the size of a circle to equal x=x+1, you make it grow to infinity unless you place a stopping point like "if x=100 then x=0". I dont know the speed at which Qbasic plugs these numebrs into the equations, but it is somewhere around 20 times per second.
The frequency in which the universe would plug these numbers into the inequality or recursive formula is an unknown as well. Since what is the speed at which the universe functions? does anyone know? would we call it the speed of time? time is purely analog, so it is infinitly divisible into units.
But if i ever did attempt to lay out some figures to form such an inequality, i would use plancks time 10(raised to the -33) as the unit of time in which the numbers are plugged.




yes, that sounds nice, but it is nevertheless arbitrary. the planck time just reperesents an increment of time beyond which no meaning can be applied in the physical world. since you are postulating an equation describing something outside of the physical world (before its existence), then the limits of the physical world do not apply.

the planck time, BTW, is 10^-43s.

Quote:


When i speak of existence through inequality, i am talking about a constant change and motion. If a universe was created with a perfectly balanced equation, there would be no propulsion, or catalyst to keep things at a constant ebb and flow.




the universe appears to be tending towards a state of uniformity. balance, if you like. it will reach a state with maximum entropy in which there is no ebb and flow (except on the quantum scale). but this is just following the laws of thermodynamics, not some magic equation.

Quote:


Much like the problem (thusly an impossiblity thanks to thermodynamic laws) with perpetual motion, we are going up against the walls of laws within the universe, and these laws are constants, and can be expressed as balanced, never changing and infallible equations, but if one were to be able to keep a constant "bending" of these laws, with an ebb and flow, one could most likely make a perpetual motion pendulum or whatever. The universe(s) however, as a whole, have the ability to (within the speculations of this theory) "bend" these laws, and like mathematician does, add 13 to this side, and subtract 13 from the other side, which never really changes the balance of the equation... this can be some sort of explanation for positrons popping in and out of existence.




you can't add 13 to one side and subtract it from the other. you either add to both sides or subtract from both sides. and doing that changes absolutely nothing in the equation. for example:

y = f(x) is no different to y + 13 = f(x) + 13. the 13s are just unnecesary terms which can be removed to leave the simpler expression. you're dealing with a difference in expression, not equation.

there is already an explanation for positrions popping into existence. what i thought you were trying to do was explain the existence of the universe, not the behaviour of things that exist within it.

Quote:


Im having trouble explaining this, but here is the best way i can describe this theory: imagine a machine which its only driving force is the solving of an impossible to solve formula. By constantly changing and moving things and gears about to balance out or solve the formula, it gives itself propulsion, but any moment at which it actually solves it, it will be in complete stasis, because no change needs to come about to solve it anymore.




ok, that makes sense, but who made the machine that solves the equation?

the main problems i have with your theory are:

-what do the variables mean? forces and phenomena are not variables.
-why are the variables variable? why aren't they constants?
-why do the variables change at a particular rate? what value do they start with?

to me it seems you are essentially proposing an equation of god. an equation that describes something that causes the existence of the universe. to use your analogy, god is like the machine trying to solve the equation. when he does, the universe is born. well, the problem remains; who created god? what is the machine? who created the machine?


--------------------
"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana

Edited by alsey (07/22/05 04:23 AM)

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: quantum physics, and inequality. [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4437399 - 07/22/05 08:51 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Everything you do comes from the "School of Swami", in which you make snide comments or strawman arguments regarding me and my characteristics to attempt to debunk my input.

Oh come on, Swami didn't invent being skeptical, and trying to paint me as a mindless clone of him is just an attempt at an insult. I made a thread about exactly what I'm talking about here before I'd had any kind of discussion with you; trying to theorize about something without actually going out of your way to learn about it. No, I'm not going after you specifically, it just happens that you've made several threads that have caught my attention recently. Lighten up, I don't know what you're talking about with strawman arguments, do you even have any examples of strawmen I used?

This is my beef, and it's not directed at you specifically, there are dozens of people in this forum who are guilty of it:

People want to have big, important ideas. They want to have an idea about how the greatest minds got it all wrong, and are approaching things from the wrong perspective. They also want to be able to come up with these ideas without having to do any work, just kind of mulling it over in their minds and summing it all up in a paragraph.

Uninformed opinions about why quantum physics gets it all wrong don't count as philosophy, they are half-baked attempts at physics and math. If you want to engage in a little mental masturbation on a very advanced topic, the best place to start is not creating theories about how they get it all wrong. The best place to start is by asking questions. Not trying to answer them without so much as cracking open a book. Go to a library, read the wikipedia article on the topic, hell, track down a professor at a university, you might be suprised at how approachable they'll be with curious outsiders.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Offlinealsey
meet me in thedreamtimewater...

Registered: 02/17/05
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Re: quantum physics, and inequality. [Re: Phluck]
    #4437514 - 07/22/05 09:46 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

i think there are two ways to come to theories of knowledge and existence: the rationalistic approach - deciding what you can know purely through rational thought, a la descartes, and the scientific approach - learning through observation. using the rationalist method, one can start with no knowledge of science or philosophy or anything.

however, you are right in saying that trying to incorporate scientific theories into your thought without understanding them will nearly always result in failure.

psilocyberin, i don't want to offend you, i admire your efforts at trying to explain existence, but you don't seem to understand much of what you have incorporated into your theory. quantum physics is simply a description of the existing world. it does not and never will explain how things came into existence. theoretical physics and the unified theories are no different; they only describe the behaviour of things; they do not explain existence.

as a logical positivist, i believe that the reasons for existence cannot be known. science will never give us the answers to those questions. science is a search for the most logical descriptions of how things happen. it will never give an answer as to why.

the current ideas in the world of theoretical physics about the origin of our universe are based on the interactions between 10- or 11- dimensional 'membranes'. these theories rely heavily on the existence of other universes. there is something else beyond our universe. but again this does not get to the root of the problem. science will never get to 'the first cause'. that is the domain of metaphysics, which IMO is an invalid form of thought anyway.

if you do have questions about quantum physics, ask away, but no matter how much you learn about it you will never find the answer to the problem of existence.

its almost like 'quantum' has become this magic word that people will invoke to explain anything. i mean, you havn't included a single piece of quantum theory in your postulation. quantum physics is the wave description of matter and energy, that is all. examine the origins of quantum theory and the 'magic' will dissapear, and you will be left with just another formal, well-defined scientific theory.


--------------------
"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana

Edited by alsey (07/22/05 02:14 PM)

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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: quantum physics, and inequality. [Re: alsey]
    #4438449 - 07/22/05 02:20 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Ok, in my first post, i stated to everyone to have at it. i am not particularly emotionally attached to this "theory". It has just been something i peice together in my head as i fell asleep in the last week.
Alsey, trendal and even phluck, I thank you for being a voice of scientific opposition here. I wanted that to see if this theory could actually have any merit, and to do so, the first step was to put it through the S&P gauntlet. even some of the firsts posts in this acted as a catalyst for more thought and better explanations about it. They helped, which is why I put most of my pot head theories on here.

I have read and grasped a few QP books so far, but advanced mathematics beyond Ohm's laws have always escaped me very easily, so I read many layman explanations. But I do understand many of the concepts of QP.
Alsey , you got me on the equation and math stuff, partly due to my inability to express with the correct terms. On a couple occasions I have attempted to bring out some threads on QP, but they always ended in arguing semantics or trying to get people to grasp something as simple as the implications the Young Slit Experiment had. I also have no one around me that even wants to hear real theories, let alone my abstract half-assed ideas.
I would like to know what the "crossover" point of quantum into macro physics is. I was unaware that it had been figured out.


Id like to delve into conversations about QP, especially with some people who know more about it than I do. So, I am shelving the inequality theory for now, it has been beaten down, and needs to heal or adapt. Last thought about it though, is that my machine i was envisioning would work almost exactly as a Segway does.

But, tell me more about some explanations of positrons popping in and out of existence, and how superposition has been explained (as long as you seriously dont try to bring up the many-worlds theory).

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Offlinealsey
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Re: quantum physics, and inequality. [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4438776 - 07/22/05 03:34 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

it takes some courage to propose a theory and be willing to accept criticism, and you can only learn from it.

Quote:

psilocyberin said:
Alsey , you got me on the equation and math stuff, partly due to my inability to express with the correct terms. On a couple occasions I have attempted to bring out some threads on QP, but they always ended in arguing semantics or trying to get people to grasp something as simple as the implications the Young Slit Experiment had.




perhaps i was being perdantic, but science has very well-defined language which is necessary to convey its precise meanings. bring in science, and you have to bring strict definitions with it, if you are going to talk about it any human language.

Quote:


I would like to know what the "crossover" point of quantum into macro physics is. I was unaware that it had been figured out.




the truth is, there is no crossover point. the principles of quantum theory hold true on all scales, its just that in the macro world, we use the approximation that is classical physics.

there is a point, however, where quantum phenomena become so significant, that classical physics cannot explain with any accuracy what is going on. this point is the planck length - roughly 1.6x10^-35 metres.

Quote:


Last thought about it though, is that my machine i was envisioning would work almost exactly as a Segway does.




but there is still the problem of the machine's existence. where did it come from? by using a machine to explain the origin of the universe, you simply push the question back a little further - where did the machine come from?

Quote:


But, tell me more about some explanations of positrons popping in and out of existence, and how superposition has been explained (as long as you seriously dont try to bring up the many-worlds theory).




ok, positrions popping into existence:

heisenberg's uncertainty principle states

(dE)(dt) > h/(2*pi)

where dE is the uncertainty in the energy of a system, dt is the uncertainty in the time of its measurement, and h is planck's constant.

(aside: it is interesting that in this particular thread, we have run into heisenberg's uncertainty principle - i cannot think of any other principle in physics that is expressed as an inequality).

now consider a vacuum. due to the uncertainty principle, there is an uncertainty in the energy of vacuum. this means that even though the vacuum appears to have zero energy, there is actually uncertainty in this - that vacuum can have non-zero energy for periods of time consistent with the uncertainty principle.

this energy is bosonic - i.e. non-matter. much of it will be electromagnetic energy carried by photons. if the energy of one of these photons is greater than the combined energy of the rest mass of the electron and the rest mass of the positron, an electron-positron pair will be formed.

superposition:

this involves some very nasty maths, so i'll give a purely qualitative explanation.

quantum superposition occurs when something has more than one value for an observable quantity. an example of this is two-slit diffraction: the position of the photon passing through the slits has two values - one value places it in one slit, and the other value places it in the other.

observable quantities correspond to what are called eigenstates which are a kind of vector. these are complex functions that, when operated on by an operator result in a scalar projection called an eigenvalue. in quantum mechanics, an eigenvalue represents a quantity that can be measured.

urgh...i'm getting lost in my own explanation here. basically in quantum mechanics you can have wavefunctions (descriptions of particles) that are eigenvectors, and under particular operations these eigenvectors project more than one eigenvalue and hence more than one value for the observable quantity.

this is really degree level physics, and its very difficult to explain using words alone.

as for the many-worlds theory; it is theoretically valid. there is even observable evidence to support it. the strange behaviour of gravity and the phenomena of 'dark matter' can be explained by other universes influencing our own through the greater 11- dimensional space.

some recommendations: read a brief history of time and the universe in a nutshell by stephen hawking. if you want to go beyond the qualitative; start with an introductory undergraduate physics text but be prepared to learn a lot of maths. to really get to grips with quantum physics, a thorough understanding of classical wave theory will help.


--------------------
"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana

Edited by alsey (07/22/05 03:47 PM)

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