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SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 11 months, 16 days

quantum physics, and inequality.
#4432335  07/21/05 09:47 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) 


Maybe this should go into the science forum, but IMO this is more like a philosophical/theory thread. This is what i call my inequality theory for the existence of the universe. I have never brought it up, so it could be easily debunked, im not sure, or maybe you guys can help me work out some of its flaws, but go ahead and rip at it, it wont bother me.
Psilo's inequality theory: Lets say there is an equation, which i can give you that will only work as long as you constantly (literally) about 20 times every second, have to change every single unknown. Like X=X+1, but much more complex and many more variables. Now lets look at our universe (or universes) as such an equation. Through having this inequality, and needing to constantly alter and borrow, or change or take both yes and no at the same time as an answer, it can continue to perpetuate itself into infinity being this constantly lopsided equation which will never at any point be completely balanced. As if the Big Bang, or creation, was simply an equation that is impossible to solve, but nonetheless a question that has been posed. If once the big bang/creation/whatever happened and it was instantly universal stability, there would not be a need for change, motion, time, or even existence. This is what I believe QP is chasing after... trying to find equality in an inequality system. The unified theory may one day be discovered, but i dont think the point in which the 4 forces work together will be a constant number, but a moving number based on the ever changing equation that is the universe. The unified theory would be the X in the X=X+1.
have fun...

trendal
tangential derivation
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,633
Loc: Ontario, Canada

Re: quantum physics, and inequality. [Re: SneezingPenis]
#4432461  07/21/05 10:46 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) 


Lets say there is an equation, which i can give you that will only work as long as you constantly (literally) about 20 times every second, have to change every single unknown.
Does any such equation exist? I don't know of any...

Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 11 months, 16 days

Re: quantum physics, and inequality. [Re: trendal]
#4432562  07/21/05 11:23 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) 


it would be simple. All it would have to be is variables on each side dependant on a variable on the other side.
much like the x=x+1 equation, which is used in some computer programming to make something constantly grow. Lets say x=1, then apply it to the equation, once you are done applying it to the equation, the variable x has changed.

trendal
tangential derivation
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,633
Loc: Ontario, Canada

Re: quantum physics, and inequality. [Re: SneezingPenis]
#4432583  07/21/05 11:27 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) 


Yes that's called "recursion" but it doesn't require each recursive step to happen at all, certainly not "20 times a second" or anything like that.
The equation progresses when you want it to...not on it's own.

Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

trendal
tangential derivation
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,633
Loc: Ontario, Canada

Re: quantum physics, and inequality. [Re: trendal]
#4432607  07/21/05 11:31 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) 


What I mean is, an equation like x=x+1 makes sense whether you actually perform the recursion or not.
You do not have to go through the process of recursion to understand that x=x+1 is a recursive function...thus it "makes sense" with or without the actual act of recursion.

Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 11 months, 16 days

Re: quantum physics, and inequality. [Re: trendal]
#4432669  07/21/05 11:44 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) 


right, but there has to be an equation out there where by solving one side, you have changed the other side, and thusly changed the variables you were solving on one side, so that a solution is so close, but not quite and you have to keep on attempting to solve the other side, back and forth the anomalies switch. Im no advanced mathemetician, and I only skimmed over this to not understand it at all, and maybe you cn shed some light on it, but some impossible equations would be nonlinear partial differentiation equations. Maybe there isnt a formula out there like what I am explaining, but i sense that you completly get my meaning, but do you think it would be possible for such a type of equation or inequality to exist. My idea is that maybe Quantum physicists shouldnt be looking for an equality, or balanced equation, and maybe an inequality, or unbalanced equation.

trendal
tangential derivation
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,633
Loc: Ontario, Canada

Re: quantum physics, and inequality. [Re: SneezingPenis]
#4432706  07/21/05 11:52 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) 


Hmm. Well I certainly know equations that are "unbalanced" (in that their variables change interdependantly, constantly) which do exist, but that doesn't mean they "don't make sense" without the changing variables.
Take a look at the Mandelbrot fractal for a good example of a recursiveequation that doesn't always work out to an exact answer. Some starting values will fall to 0 within a given number of recursions  say 100  but other starting values will continue to "jump around" the 0 mark into infinity.
Personally, I think that if a "final equation" is possible...one which can describe all of existence with just the one equation...it will be a relatively simple equation, easily balanced, and using only wholenumber values for it's constants.

Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 11 months, 16 days

Re: quantum physics, and inequality. [Re: trendal]
#4432735  07/21/05 12:00 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) 


well, the whole point of the theory is to say that existence comes about through an imbalance, or inequality in the function of the universe. I think if everything was so balanced and simple, we would have figured out the unified theory by now.

trendal
tangential derivation
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,633
Loc: Ontario, Canada

Re: quantum physics, and inequality. [Re: SneezingPenis]
#4433038  07/21/05 01:14 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) 


Well by "simple" I mean simple from the point of view of someone who already knows the equation. Hindisght is 2020
Using Mandelbrot again as an example: I remember the first time I looked at the Mandelbrot set. I was amazed at the complexity involved, and at first decided that the process involved in creating the Mandelbrot set must be equally complex!
Then, when I actually looked at the equation I realized how incredibly simple the underlying equation and process were! Without actually knowing the equation, I could only expect it to be complex....but once I did know the equation, I saw the simplicity and elegance that it contained.

Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 11 months, 16 days

Re: quantum physics, and inequality. [Re: trendal]
#4433132  07/21/05 01:45 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) 


well, simplicity is relative anyway. My logic leading up to the theory was based on some thoughts about the actual point, in relation to size, at which matter crosses over from being ruled by the macro, to ruled by quantum physics. So, i started to look at buckyballs, or C60, which is much larger than certain things still ruled by the macro physics, but buckyballs are still governed in many ways by quantum physics, so i thought there had to be a fluctuation in the definition of this crossover point, which after a few more bowls I arrived at this theory...

trendal
tangential derivation
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,633
Loc: Ontario, Canada

Re: quantum physics, and inequality. [Re: SneezingPenis]
#4433256  07/21/05 02:15 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) 


Well in my opinion there is no crossover "point" between the quantum world and the macro world...more of a "smearing out" of quantum effects on larger scales.
There are some things even in macroscale that behave entirely in a quantum manner, such as BoseEinstein Condensates and various superconducting materials.

Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 11 months, 16 days

Re: quantum physics, and inequality. [Re: trendal]
#4433348  07/21/05 02:36 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) 


so, if there was an equation, that could express in its entirety the universe, do you think it would be a balanced equation, or more like a recursion type equation?

Phluck
Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 11,393
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Re: quantum physics, and inequality. [Re: SneezingPenis]
#4433412  07/21/05 02:46 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) 


I think if everything was so balanced and simple, we would have figured out the unified theory by now.
Why's that? Just 'cause it kinda seems that way?
 "I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.isafter.us

trendal
tangential derivation
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,633
Loc: Ontario, Canada

Re: quantum physics, and inequality. [Re: SneezingPenis]
#4433441  07/21/05 02:52 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) 


I think it would be perfectly balanced, with no need for recursive steps or anything like that.
Like E=MC^2.
I also think it would have WHOLENUMBER constants, instead of the seemingly arbitrary numbers we currently have.

Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 11 months, 16 days

Re: quantum physics, and inequality. [Re: trendal]
#4433622  07/21/05 03:39 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) 


so, beyond your own personal opinions, do you think in some way that it is a valid beginning to a theory? or atleast good for mental masturbation experiments?

Phluck
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 04/11/99
Posts: 11,393
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Re: quantum physics, and inequality. [Re: SneezingPenis]
#4433640  07/21/05 03:44 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) 


I don't really see any justification for it other than, 'it seems like it should be this way'. It's a guess, not a theory.
Perhaps with a degree in particle physics, you could make it into an educated guess, but it doesn't seem like your grasp of quantum physics goes beyond the VERY simplified version presented in The Elegant Universe. Admittedly, neither does mine, which is why I don't think any guesses I make on the topic would hold any water, or even make any sense to someone who has a more complete understanding of the math behind quantum physics.
 "I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.isafter.us

trendal
tangential derivation
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,633
Loc: Ontario, Canada

Re: quantum physics, and inequality. [Re: SneezingPenis]
#4433652  07/21/05 03:50 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) 


Well you can form the basis for a "theory" from just about anything...it's only once you enter the experimentation/verification stage that most bases fall apart.
I think you could develop some kind of working general theory if you follow along with your idea, though. Maybe toss in Entropy, as Entropy is one of the BEST examples of an "unbalanced" process in nature (entropy, when averaged, ALWAYS increases  why?)

Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

alsey
meet me in thedreamtimewater...
Registered: 02/17/05
Posts: 1,203
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Re: quantum physics, and inequality. [Re: SneezingPenis]
#4434425  07/21/05 06:33 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) 


Quote:
psilocyberin said: Psilo's inequality theory: Lets say there is an equation, which i can give you that will only work as long as you constantly (literally) about 20 times every second, have to change every single unknown.
that wouldn't be an equation. also, what do the variables mean? you cannot just go from numbers to existence. numbers on their own are just a projection of our ability to think logically.
also, you said an equation which you can give me. who gave the universe its equation?
Quote:
Like X=X+1, but much more complex and many more variables. Now lets look at our universe (or universes) as such an equation. Through having this inequality, and needing to constantly alter and borrow, or change or take both yes and no at the same time as an answer, it can continue to perpetuate itself into infinity being this constantly lopsided equation which will never at any point be completely balanced.
an inequality is by definition not an equation. this sounds like 'the anomaly' in the matrix. that has meaning because the numbers represent things in the system, and there is a law being followed (the programming). your theory has no meaning for the numbers, and you havn't explained why the variables are variables.
no matter how complex your inequality is, it will, at any one state, be equivalent to
a > b
a specific case, for example, might be 3 > 2. ok, 3 > 2, but what does that have to do with existence?
Quote:
As if the Big Bang, or creation, was simply an equation that is impossible to solve, but nonetheless a question that has been posed.
if an expression has no solution, it is not an equation, it is a statement of nontruth.
Quote:
If once the big bang/creation/whatever happened and it was instantly universal stability, there would not be a need for change, motion, time, or even existence.
why not?
Quote:
This is what I believe QP is chasing after... trying to find equality in an inequality system. The unified theory may one day be discovered, but i dont think the point in which the 4 forces work together will be a constant number, but a moving number based on the ever changing equation that is the universe. The unified theory would be the X in the X=X+1.
the unified theories of physics do not explain how things came into existence. they just explains how things work.
the grand unification energy has already been calculated  10^15GeV.
 "Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come facetoface with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels."  ven. henepola gunaratana
Edited by alsey (07/21/05 06:52 PM)

alsey
meet me in thedreamtimewater...
Registered: 02/17/05
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Re: quantum physics, and inequality. [Re: SneezingPenis]
#4434443  07/21/05 06:36 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) 


Quote:
psilocyberin said: it would be simple. All it would have to be is variables on each side dependant on a variable on the other side.
much like the x=x+1 equation, which is used in some computer programming to make something constantly grow. Lets say x=1, then apply it to the equation, once you are done applying it to the equation, the variable x has changed.
that would usually be written as x = x(subscript n) + 1. x = x + 1 is a false statement. still, you would have to give some meaning to the numbers before they have any relevance. there is also the problem of what value the iteration starts with.
 "Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come facetoface with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels."  ven. henepola gunaratana

alsey
meet me in thedreamtimewater...
Registered: 02/17/05
Posts: 1,203
Last seen: 9 years, 25 days

Re: quantum physics, and inequality. [Re: SneezingPenis]
#4434464  07/21/05 06:41 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) 


Quote:
psilocyberin said: some impossible equations would be nonlinear partial differentiation equations.
those equations still have solutions, only we cannot deduce them algebraicly.
 "Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come facetoface with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels."  ven. henepola gunaratana
 




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