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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Registered: 06/15/02
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London mayor says West fueled Islamic radicalism
    #4427895 - 07/20/05 01:13 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Has anybody else been following what various British politicians are saying about the bombings in London? I have heard some flat out lies from Jack Straw (the British foreign minister I believe).

Let's be honest here....the reason those four guys blew up those subways and that bus is because of Britian being involved in the Iraqi invasion. Everybody knows it. Yet, some politicians are conveniently side-stepping that obvious fact.



http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050720/ts_nm/security_britain_mayor_dc



London mayor says West fueled Islamic radicalism

By Andrew Gray



LONDON (Reuters) - Western foreign policy has fueled the Islamist radicalism behind the bomb attacks which killed more than 50 people in London, the British capital's mayor Ken Livingstone said on Wednesday.

Livingstone, who earned the nickname "Red Ken" for his left-wing views, won widespread praise for a defiant response which helped unite London after the bombings. But he has revived his reputation for courting controversy in recent days.

Asked on Wednesday what he thought had motivated the four suspected suicide bombers, Livingstone cited Western policy in the Middle East and early American backing for Osama bin Laden.

"A lot of young people see the double standards, they see what happens in (U.S. detention camp) Guantanamo Bay, and they just think that there isn't a just foreign policy," he said.

Police say they believe there is a clear link between bin Laden's al Qaeda network and the four British Muslims who blew up three underground trains and a double-decker bus on July 7.

"You've just had 80 years of Western intervention into predominantly Arab lands because of a Western need for oil. We've propped up unsavory governments, we've overthrown ones that we didn't consider sympathetic," Livingstone said.

"I think the particular problem we have at the moment is that in the 1980s ... the Americans recruited and trained Osama bin Laden, taught him how to kill, to make bombs, and set him off to kill the Russians to drive them out of Afghanistan.

"They didn't give any thought to the fact that once he'd done that, he might turn on his creators," he told BBC radio.

ANGER OVER IRAQ

Prime Minister Tony Blair's government has insisted the bombings have no link to its foreign policy, particularly its decision to invade Iraq alongside the United States.

But an opinion poll this week showed two-thirds of Britons see a connection between the Iraq war and the bombings. A top think tank and a leaked intelligence memo have also suggested the war has made Britain more of a target for terrorists.

That did not stop the right-wing Daily Telegraph castigating Livingstone, a maverick member of Blair's Labour party who was celebrating London's selection as host of the 2012 Olympics just hours before the bombers struck.

Wednesday's edition of the paper featured a picture of the mayor between photographs of two radical Muslim clerics under the headline: "The men who blame Britain."

Livingstone has made clear he condemns all killing, including suicide bombing. But is also a long-standing critic of Israeli policies toward the Palestinians.

"If you have been under foreign occupation, and denied the right to vote, denied the right to run your own affairs, often denied the right to work, for three generations, I suspect if it had happened here in England, we would have produced a lot of suicide bombers ourselves," he said on Wednesday.

Israel's ambassador to London Zvi Heifetz accused the mayor of expressing sympathy for Palestinian militants.

"It is outrageous that the same mayor who rightfully condemned the suicide bombing in London as perverted faith', defends those who, under the same extremist banner, kill Israelis," he said in a statement.


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OfflinetrendalM
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Re: London mayor says West fueled Islamic radicalism [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4427945 - 07/20/05 01:22 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

The statements being made are by people who look back farther than just the immediate cause of the bombings.

Causality follows a chain of events, and no event happens in a vacuum without other events preceding it (and causing it).

In that sense, yes, the West has helped fuel Islamic radicalism which in turn resulted in 9/11, which in turn resulted in Operation Iraqi Liberation (OIL, lol), which in turn resulted in four Islamic guys blowing themselves up in London.


It's like looking at a dead man who's just died from a heart attack. Yes, he may have died from a heart attack....but just as important is what caused the heart attack?

Simply looking at the final cause leaves out a GREAT deal of vital information for why the final cause occurred.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: London mayor says West fueled Islamic radicalism [Re: trendal]
    #4427971 - 07/20/05 01:28 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
The statements being made are by people who look back farther than just the immediate cause of the bombings.

Simply looking at the final cause leaves out a GREAT deal of vital information for why the final cause occurred.





I have still heard ample comments from politicians who absolutely refuse to acknowledge why Muslim extremists are angry.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: London mayor says West fueled Islamic radicalism [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4428003 - 07/20/05 01:34 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
Quote:

trendal said:
The statements being made are by people who look back farther than just the immediate cause of the bombings.

Simply looking at the final cause leaves out a GREAT deal of vital information for why the final cause occurred.





I have still heard ample comments from politicians who absolutely refuse to acknowledge why Muslim extremists are angry.



The natural reaction of the emotionally immature is to assume that they have a monopoly on suffering.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: London mayor says West fueled Islamic radicalism [Re: Silversoul]
    #4428159 - 07/20/05 02:07 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Yes, Islam is a very immature religion :thumbup:


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OfflineHarryFlashmanVC
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Re: London mayor says West fueled Islamic radicalism [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4428174 - 07/20/05 02:11 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Red Ken is a notorious arse who loves to be centre stage, no matter who's teat he has to suckle at to be there.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: London mayor says West fueled Islamic radicalism [Re: HarryFlashmanVC]
    #4428210 - 07/20/05 02:17 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Red Ken is also famous for inviting radical Islamists to London to speak to the unwashed, and fawning all over the murderous fanatics in public to boot.

He is a disgrace to the City of London and to politicians everywhere. I'd have a tough time deciding who is worse -- Ken or George Galloway.



Phred


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: London mayor says West fueled Islamic radicalism [Re: Phred]
    #4428435 - 07/20/05 03:07 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

If we are placing blame, let's blame Europe.  If the European countries could get along, then there would have been no WWII.  If there had been no WWII, then America wouldn't have become an emperialistic country and the middle east would have been left alone.  Wow this is fun... I like the blame game.  :rolleyes:


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OfflineHarryFlashmanVC
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Re: London mayor says West fueled Islamic radicalism [Re: Seuss]
    #4429292 - 07/20/05 06:30 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

If you take a tennis ball and squeeze it a hundred times dayly you might get a better grip on historical facts.

America the "emperialistic" (sic) that stopped the middle east being left alone? Hardly. Britain was there before that. Or countless other Empires dating back millenia.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: London mayor says West fueled Islamic radicalism [Re: Phred]
    #4429310 - 07/20/05 06:33 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Red Ken is also famous for inviting radical Islamists to London to speak to the unwashed, and fawning all over the murderous fanatics in public to boot.

He is a disgrace to the City of London and to politicians everywhere. I'd have a tough time deciding who is worse -- Ken or George Galloway.






This guy may be a dumbass, but that doesn't change the fact that a lot of British politicians refuse to admit the obvious - London was attacked because Britian is in Iraq.


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OfflinetrendalM
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Re: London mayor says West fueled Islamic radicalism [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4429341 - 07/20/05 06:39 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I'm sure they're afraid of a repeat of the Spain attacks...

If they admit to their own people that they are being attacked because they are in Iraq it isn't too hard to see that at least SOME of those people will decide it's much better to just cut out and leave Iraq to avoid any future attacks.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: London mayor says West fueled Islamic radicalism [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4429534 - 07/20/05 07:26 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Yes, Islam is a very immature religion :thumbup:



Speaking of immature...


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: London mayor says West fueled Islamic radicalism [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4430417 - 07/20/05 10:49 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Why don't they hate the French, then? If we want to go back in time, the Crusades was largely carried out by the people and monarchy of the Franks. I suspect a terrorist attack at any time in Paris.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: London mayor says West fueled Islamic radicalism [Re: Redstorm]
    #4430927 - 07/21/05 12:57 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Why don't they hate the French, then?





These people who were involved in the London bombings obviously cared more about what is happening today than what happened 1,000 years ago.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: London mayor says West fueled Islamic radicalism [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4430960 - 07/21/05 01:03 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I was being sarcastic. :wink:


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: London mayor says West fueled Islamic radicalism [Re: Redstorm]
    #4430974 - 07/21/05 01:06 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
I was being sarcastic. :wink:





Whatever shorty....  :lol:


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: London mayor says West fueled Islamic radicalism [Re: HarryFlashmanVC]
    #4432126 - 07/21/05 06:45 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

> If you take a tennis ball and squeeze it a hundred times dayly you might get a better grip on historical facts.

Apparently you missed the sarcasm indicated by the rolling eyes. The point of my tirade was to show how easy it is to twist history to lay blame for current events upon others in the past. I certainly don't take myself too seriously, at least when politics are involved, and I hope nobody else does either.


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OfflineHarryFlashmanVC
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Re: London mayor says West fueled Islamic radicalism [Re: Seuss]
    #4432545 - 07/21/05 11:18 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Nope, though your "joke" was incredibly subtle I did get it. It might even have been mildly amusing if the context was accurate as I have said in my previous post. Perhaps words elucidating truthful information in an ironic way would allow you not to need a smilie to define when you were being sarcastic or not.

All in all 3/10 and a must try harder.


Edited by HarryFlashmanVC (07/21/05 11:21 AM)


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: London mayor says West fueled Islamic radicalism [Re: HarryFlashmanVC]
    #4432772 - 07/21/05 12:09 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

He never said anything false.

Britain pulled out of the Middle East a long, long time ago. If WWII didn't happen and the US did not become a global power and stick their nose in Middle Eastern affairs, they may very well be left alone.

Relax, you're not impressing anyone.


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OfflineTwister
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Re: London mayor says West fueled Islamic radicalism [Re: HarryFlashmanVC]
    #4432868 - 07/21/05 12:32 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I don't think blame for recent events can be placed on one side or the other. Yes, the West has done wrong in the Middle East; but at the same time certain Middle Easterners have also done wrong towards the West. While I don't even believe that there is a true right or wrong, I'm sure it can be agreed upon that both sides have overstepped their bounds on multiple occasions.

The issue that should be addressed is, why does any person or entity feel it necessary to treat another as though they are bad/wrong/inferior/unworthy/etc.? I would attribute it to human nature more than anything, as I don't think that there can be anything inherently wrong with a society, because that society is merely a conglomeration of the mentalities/ideals/opions/etc. of the individuals which make it up.

I think rather than trying to blame one side or another in any situation like this, we should just chalk it up to the fact that it is universal human nature which initiates and perpetuates these types of conflicts. Basically if poeple, even if it was only a small percentage, ACTUALLY followed the golden rule this place would be a lot more tolerable in my opinion.


Edited by Twister351 (07/21/05 12:47 PM)


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