|
 looner2
ABBA fan
Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
|
 Re: Crazy Chinese general  [Re: Krishna]
#4414332 - 07/17/05 10:07 AM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Krishna said:
Quote:
looner2 said:
Quote:
Swami said:
Nuking hundreds of US cities is not.
But nuking two Japanese cities was a model of rationality, no?
I don't know about a model of rationality, as war with Japan wasn't Philosophy 101.
It had to be done though, thats for sure.
ha! it's official - you have no freaking clue what you are talking about! seriously, do some research into the events leading up to the nuking of japan - it had next-to-nothing to do with WWII, and everything to do with flexing muscle to the Soviet Union (since the war was already basically over, or would have been in a matter of months, we already had to stragetically plan against our new enemy)
How would we have defeated Japan in a matter of months, specifically, in what manner?
--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth
|
niteowl
GrandPaw
 
Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc: 
|
Re: Crazy Chinese general [Re: Smallworlds]
#4414356 - 07/17/05 10:23 AM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Smallworlds said:
"We Chinese will prepare ourselves for the destruction of all of the cities east of Xian. Of course the Americans will have to be prepared that hundreds ... of cities will be destroyed by the Chinese," he added.
Im not sure that he was referring to US cities.
It would be nearly impossible for them to reach US soil.
I think he was referring to cities occupied by the US, in the region.....not cities in the US.
--------------------
Live for the moment you are in nowDon't be bogged down by your pastDon't be afraid of what lies in your future
|
 Smallworlds
Trippin' fool -Merry Prankster
Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 4,207
Last seen: 18 years, 6 months
|
Re: Crazy Chinese general [Re: niteowl]
#4414410 - 07/17/05 10:45 AM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Oh.
But what makes you so sure that they are not capable of reaching U.S. soil with ICBM's?
--------------------
Through the excercise of patience, one may learn humility..
Smoke plenty of green, and eat fungus!!!!
   
Trip Report
|
niteowl
GrandPaw
Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc:
|
Re: Crazy Chinese general [Re: Smallworlds]
#4414464 - 07/17/05 11:01 AM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Have you ever heard of the Patriot Missile Defence System
It would be nearly impossible for them to hit us with an ICBM
|
Baby_Hitler
Errorist
Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 27,652
Loc: To the limit!
Last seen: 2 hours, 4 minutes
|
Re: Crazy Chinese general [Re: niteowl]
#4414730 - 07/17/05 12:28 PM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
How many cities have those exactly?
--------------------
This space for rent
|
Smallworlds
Trippin' fool -Merry Prankster
Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 4,207
Last seen: 18 years, 6 months
|
Re: Crazy Chinese general [Re: Baby_Hitler]
#4415083 - 07/17/05 02:29 PM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
If they're there they're well hidden, that said, I'm sure we probably have something in place since Bush is fucking with the world.
--------------------
Through the excercise of patience, one may learn humility..
Smoke plenty of green, and eat fungus!!!!
Trip Report
|
d33p
Welcome to Violence
Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
Last seen: 10 years, 10 months
|
Re: Crazy Chinese general [Re: Krishna]
#4415087 - 07/17/05 02:30 PM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Krishna said:
ha! it's official - you have no freaking clue what you are talking about! seriously, do some research into the events leading up to the nuking of japan - it had next-to-nothing to do with WWII, and everything to do with flexing muscle to the Soviet Union (since the war was already basically over, or would have been in a matter of months, we already had to stragetically plan against our new enemy)
Let me guess...... you read that piece of shit book "The Decision to Use the Atomic Bomb" by Alperovitz. Am i right?
--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.
bang bang
|
Krishna
कृष्ण,LOL
Registered: 05/08/03
Posts: 23,285
Loc: oakland
|
Re: Crazy Chinese general [Re: d33p]
#4415197 - 07/17/05 03:00 PM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
d33p said:
Quote:
Krishna said:
ha! it's official - you have no freaking clue what you are talking about! seriously, do some research into the events leading up to the nuking of japan - it had next-to-nothing to do with WWII, and everything to do with flexing muscle to the Soviet Union (since the war was already basically over, or would have been in a matter of months, we already had to stragetically plan against our new enemy)
Let me guess...... you read that piece of shit book "The Decision to Use the Atomic Bomb" by Alperovitz. Am i right?
nope, never heard of it. however, i've done quite a bit of research on this topic. basically, the argument for the use of the bomb (except for the 'we need to flex to the USSR' idea) goes like, "japan saw their emporer as a god, and would never surrender, but would fight to the death for his honor." ok, fair enough. however, in their terms of surrender, we allowed them to keep their emporer as a ceremonial head-of-state (something we had previously refused to accept, thus somewhat sparking the decision to use the bomb).
as to how we would have ended the war in a matter of months - japan was majorily fucked - russia was coming up through china and was almost there. with the fall of the nazis, the entire war effort could be focused on japan. literally every military official at the time has been quoted saying that we did not need to use the bombs, and most certainly not two of them.
some examples -
admiral william d. leahy, the chief-of-staff, wrote in his memoirs, "[T]he use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender. . . ."
7 weeks before the bombs were dropped, he wrote, "It is my opinion at the present time that a surrender of Japan can be arranged with terms that can be accepted by Japan and that will make fully satisfactory provisions for America's defense against future trans-Pacific aggression."
admiral chester w. nimitz, the commander in chief of the pacific fleet, said, "The Japanese had, in fact, already sued for peace before the atomic age was announced to the world with the destruction of Hiroshima and before the Russian entry into the war."
admiral william f. halsey jr, the commander of the US 3rd fleet said, "The first atomic bomb was an unnecessary experiment. . . . It was a mistake to ever drop it. . . . [the scientists] had this toy and they wanted to try it out, so they dropped it. . . . It killed a lot of Japs, but the Japs had put out a lot of peace feelers through Russia long before."
Rear Admiral L. Lewis Strauss, special assistant to the Secretary of the Navy from 1944 to 1945 (and later chairman of the Atomic Energy Commission) said repeatedly that the a-bomb "was not necessary to bring the war to a successful conclusion. . . ."
The commanding general of the U.S. Army Air Forces, Henry H. "Hap" Arnold wrote in his memoirs, "it always appeared to us that, atomic bomb or no atomic bomb, the Japanese were already on the verge of collapse."
the commander of the Twenty-First Bomber Command, Major General Curtis E. LeMay, was reported in the New York Herald Tribune to have said flatly at one press conference that the atomic bomb "had nothing to do with the end of the war." He said the war would have been over in two weeks without the use of the atomic bomb or the Russian entry into the war.
Brigadier General Bonner Fellers (in charge of psychological warfare on MacArthur's wartime staff and subsequently MacArthur's military secretary in Tokyo) stated: "Obviously . . . the atomic bomb neither induced the Emperor's decision to surrender nor had any effect on the ultimate outcome of the war."
Colonel Charles "Tick" Bonesteel, 1945 chief of the War Department Operations Division Policy Section, subsequently recalled in a military history interview: "[T]he poor damn Japanese were putting feelers out by the ton so to speak, through Russia. . . ."
(all quotes from http://www.doug-long.com/guide1.htm)
i could keep going on and on and on... but basically every military official from the time has remarked in one way or another that the bombs had little-to-nothing to do with ending the war, and much more to do with flexing muscle to Russia.
--------------------
|
The_Red_Crayon
Exposer of Truth
Registered: 08/13/03
Posts: 13,673
Loc: Smokey Mtns. TN
Last seen: 6 years, 11 months
|
Re: Crazy Chinese general [Re: looner2]
#4416139 - 07/17/05 06:35 PM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
If we defend Taiwan and attack china with nuclear bombs. China and the United States will be devestated. Their is no point in starting a global war over a piece of land like that. That would be the apocalypse right their.
|
d33p
Welcome to Violence
Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
Last seen: 10 years, 10 months
|
Re: Crazy Chinese general [Re: Krishna]
#4416371 - 07/17/05 07:56 PM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
edit: I love all asians and when i say "jap" it is not meant as an insult. I just feel its ludicrous to type a much longer version of the word so many times because a few pc retards think its an insult.
nope, never heard of it. however, i've done quite a bit of research on this topic. basically, the argument for the use of the bomb (except for the 'we need to flex to the USSR' idea) goes like, "japan saw their emporer as a god, and would never surrender, but would fight to the death for his honor." ok, fair enough. however, in their terms of surrender, we allowed them to keep their emporer as a ceremonial head-of-state (something we had previously refused to accept, thus somewhat sparking the decision to use the bomb).
The japanese(by this i mean the SWC) were ready to surrender under these conditions: the Emperor must remain(not a ceremonial role), Japan must disarm her own troops and not surrender arms to a foreign power, and Japan must try her own war criminals. These conditions were unacceptable.
Are you familiar with the Potsdam Proclamation delivered on july 26th? This called for the unconditional surrender of the japs but does allow room for the emperor to maintain a wholly ceremonial role. The SWC chose to ignore these terms of surrender and PM Suzuki's words about it to reporters was interpreted as the Japs refusal of the terms.
I believe your confusion of the conditions under which the japs would surrender come from US intercepted diplomatic messages sent from Japan to the USSR attempting to achieve a negotiated peace through Russian intervention. These messages were sent by togo, a dove on the SWC, who alone had no formal authority to negotiate peace. Another problem with these messages is that many more secret transmissions which detailed a final massive buildup to repel an initial mainland invasion were intercepted as well.
as to how we would have ended the war in a matter of months - japan was majorly fucked - russia was coming up through china and was almost there. with the fall of the nazis, the entire war effort could be focused on japan. literally every military official at the time has been quoted saying that we did not need to use the bombs, and most certainly not two of them.
The Japs were majorly fucked by the time we invaded iwo jima. Still they were able to kill about 6,800 GIs with a combined total of roughly 26,000 causalities(MORE THAN THE JAPS) on an 8 mile stretch of island. The estimates made on the U.S. casualties was underestimated by 80 percent. 26,000 Casualties out of 70,000 Marines. Out of roughly 22,000 Japs only 200 were taken prisoner; the rest, dead. Does any of this mean anything to you? This wasn't even the mainland; these japs fought till the bitter end for 3 airstrips where kamikaze missions were flown out of. To me, this speaks volumes as to the will of the japs at the time.
The Americans did not want Russia to take over a large portion of Asia and then place it under it's sphere of influence. Therefore a quick end to the war in the pacific was not only advantageous as to prevent the Soviets from gaining increased influence but also to prevent the immense amount of causalities expected to occur in a mainland invasion.
Most importantly how exactly do think the war would have ended if the bombs were not dropped?
some examples -
admiral william d. leahy, the chief-of-staff, wrote in his memoirs, "[T]he use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender. . . ."
The conditions that the Japs were ready to surrender to were unacceptable and the japs were far from being already defeated.
7 weeks before the bombs were dropped, he wrote, "It is my opinion at the present time that a surrender of Japan can be arranged with terms that can be accepted by Japan and that will make fully satisfactory provisions for America's defense against future trans-Pacific aggression."
This guy is complete nut job if he thought the conditions that the japs wanted should have even been considered.
admiral chester w. nimitz, the commander in chief of the pacific fleet, said, "The Japanese had, in fact, already sued for peace before the atomic age was announced to the world with the destruction of Hiroshima and before the Russian entry into the war."
No they did not. Some doves on the SWC sent out peace feelers which were then broken off at the insistence of the hawks on the SWC.
admiral william f. halsey jr, the commander of the US 3rd fleet said, "The first atomic bomb was an unnecessary experiment. . . . It was a mistake to ever drop it. . . . [the scientists] had this toy and they wanted to try it out, so they dropped it. . . . It killed a lot of Japs, but the Japs had put out a lot of peace feelers through Russia long before."
The fire-bombing of tokyo in march 1945 killed more japs than the atomic bombing of hiroshima. Both were necessary evils in an attempt to end the war. The transmissions they sent to Russia were sent by Togo and possibly other doves who did not speak for Japan.
How did Halsey propose the war would end?
Rear Admiral L. Lewis Strauss, special assistant to the Secretary of the Navy from 1944 to 1945 (and later chairman of the Atomic Energy Commission) said repeatedly that the a-bomb "was not necessary to bring the war to a successful conclusion. . . ."
How did Strauss propose the war would end?
The commanding general of the U.S. Army Air Forces, Henry H. "Hap" Arnold wrote in his memoirs, "it always appeared to us that, atomic bomb or no atomic bomb, the Japanese were already on the verge of collapse."
The Japs air force was virtually decimated by this point save for the estimated 9,000 fighters saved for kamikaze missions to repel a mainland invasion. I have no doubt that Arnold and his boys would have felt this way considering they could fly over Japan unchallenged.
the commander of the Twenty-First Bomber Command, Major General Curtis E. LeMay, was reported in the New York Herald Tribune to have said flatly at one press conference that the atomic bomb "had nothing to do with the end of the war." He said the war would have been over in two weeks without the use of the atomic bomb or the Russian entry into the war.
Do you actually believe what he says?
Brigadier General Bonner Fellers (in charge of psychological warfare on MacArthur's wartime staff and subsequently MacArthur's military secretary in Tokyo) stated: "Obviously . . . the atomic bomb neither induced the Emperor's decision to surrender nor had any effect on the ultimate outcome of the war."
Please supply the whole quote. Well it doesn't seem to obvious to me. Maybe you could actually explain how the atomic bomb neither induced the Emperor's decision to surrender nor effected the ultimate outcome of the war instead of supplying quotes that prove nothing. Also the text i reference later will challenge Fellers claim.
Colonel Charles "Tick" Bonesteel, 1945 chief of the War Department Operations Division Policy Section, subsequently recalled in a military history interview: "[T]he poor damn Japanese were putting feelers out by the ton so to speak, through Russia. . . ."
By the ton? A few ambassadors who had no formal authority is a ton?
(all quotes from http://www.doug-long.com/guide1.htm)
i could keep going on and on and on... but basically every military official from the time has remarked in one way or another that the bombs had little-to-nothing to do with ending the war, and much more to do with flexing muscle to Russia.
Rofl i just went to that link after writing everything i already have in this post. Remember when i asked you about Alperovitz's book? Read the very top of the link you supplied. Never heard of his book, ehhh? 
The problem with Alperovitz's book is that he completely ignores every piece of evidence that challenges his position on the bombing. Go ahead and read his book, its a joke. He also plays dumb on many occasions and unfortunately many readers seem to fall for his tricks.
I could go ahead and search for a bunch of quotes from other American Military heads who supported the bombs but it would take to much time and the quotes themselves are worthless.
If you really want to know how and why the Japs surrendered i suggest you read "Nihon no Ichiban Nagai Hi" or "Japan's Longest Day " by the Pacific War Research Society.
--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.
bang bang
Edited by d33p (07/17/05 09:51 PM)
|
tak
geo's henchman
Registered: 11/20/00
Posts: 3,776
Loc: nowhereland
|
Re: Crazy Chinese general [Re: d33p]
#4416980 - 07/17/05 10:46 PM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
It would be stupid to end the world over somethign so silly. Too bad some people will always have bully mentalities. I dunno where im gonna go in case of war. Not china, thats for sure!
--------------------
The DJ's took pills to stay awake and play for seven days.
|
Baby_Hitler
Errorist
Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 27,652
Loc: To the limit!
Last seen: 2 hours, 4 minutes
|
Re: Crazy Chinese general [Re: tak]
#4417216 - 07/17/05 11:27 PM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Just stop giving money to China.
--------------------
This space for rent
|
Krishna
कृष्ण,LOL
Registered: 05/08/03
Posts: 23,285
Loc: oakland
|
Re: Crazy Chinese general [Re: d33p]
#4418120 - 07/18/05 06:33 AM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
hehe yeah i did notice that the quotes i was using came from a discussion of that book. as i've said, i've never read the book myself. perhaps when i have some free-time in the upcoming months, i'll check it out (although i doubt it - i've got many other books waiting to be a'read that interest me much more). i've got to get back to work (hehe i keep slacking off!), but i remember seeing a few websites that compared and contrasted the pros/cons of using the bomb - and nearly all of them seemed to feel that in the end, the cons vastly outweighed the pros - and that the only indisputable 'pro' was to flex muscle to the USSR... i'll re-find some of those links and post them later this afternoon!
--------------------
|
Los_Pepes
Stranger
Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 731
|
Re: Crazy Chinese general [Re: Krishna]
#4424259 - 07/19/05 04:04 PM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Look at these links and see how the Chinese handle their dissidents. None of these dissidents are terrorists they simply disagree with the government. Before someone totally wasted on hashish says something about Gitmo and Abu Graib, the inmates there are killers.
http://www.faluninfo.net/
http://www.rescuecharles.org
Edited by Los_Pepes (07/19/05 04:07 PM)
|
niteowl
GrandPaw
Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc:
|
Re: Crazy Chinese general [Re: Los_Pepes]
#4426263 - 07/20/05 12:01 AM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
So, are we supposed to invade China next?
Is that our job......to be the worlds police....invade every nation that we don't agree with?
|
|
Threaded
Previous
Index
Next
Red Vein Kratom 
Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order
Edit 
Reply 
afoaf
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 all )
MAIA
KingOftheThing
exclusive58
zappaisgod
SlackerKM
luvdemshrooms
bumbleskunk