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OfflineMJF
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Hallucinogens and Human Evolution
    #4425899 - 07/19/05 10:33 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

A few months ago I started having these vague intuitive thoughts that hallucinogens have actually played a major role in the evoltuion of human beings. Could hallucinogens played a role in evolving us from apes into humans, actually changing our conciousness and improving our language capabilities? I've recently discovered that this is a theory held by some scientists. Does anyone know more about this? Or what do you think about this idea? :mushroom2:

Edited by MJF (07/19/05 10:43 PM)

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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: MJF]
    #4425962 - 07/19/05 10:49 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

imo evolution is like this retrospective way of describing historic process specifically with genes. when it comes to the role of mushrooms in this i'm sure they played a role, but a defining one? it's pretty speculative.

but people use evolution to mean any kind of historic process or growth, or increase in complexity. since hallucinogens are part of our culture and the historic process we're in, i would say they are part of our evolution.


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger

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Offlinedanlennon3
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4425996 - 07/19/05 10:56 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

theres no way we can really tell.. personally, i think that hallucinogens played a big role in shaping humananity. even in the past 500 years, they have played a major role in our thinking. the great awakening was caused by an outbreak in ergot, which is whhat LSD is synthesized from.


--------------------
"Psychedelics should be used not to escape reality, but to embrace it"


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Invisiblemoog
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: MJF]
    #4426061 - 07/19/05 11:10 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

It's possible, but there are other pathways to higher consciousness than through psychotropic substances.....

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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: moog]
    #4426104 - 07/19/05 11:18 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

meditation?


--------------------
"Psychedelics should be used not to escape reality, but to embrace it"


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: MJF]
    #4426114 - 07/19/05 11:19 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Evolution takes place on the genetic level. Hallucinogens do not affect DNA.

End of story.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Offlinedanlennon3
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: Swami]
    #4426158 - 07/19/05 11:28 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Evolution takes place on the genetic level. Hallucinogens do not affect DNA.

End of story.




they don't not effect DNA.. but they do effect the conscious thought. the conscious thought is why we are not monkeys anymore...


--------------------
"Psychedelics should be used not to escape reality, but to embrace it"


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: Swami]
    #4426192 - 07/19/05 11:39 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

i thought the theory was something like, early humans were willing to eat the mushrooms and the neanderthals werent
mushroom-eating gave the humans an evolutionary advantage
and they passed on more of their genes

for mushrooms to play a role in evolution, they would not have to affect individual genes, only the composition of gene pool


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4426213 - 07/19/05 11:47 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

only the composition of gene pool

Which has nothing to do with language else sharks would be talking.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineMJF
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4426230 - 07/19/05 11:50 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

when cavemen ate acute quantities of mushrooms their site was better so they could hunt better...also the mushrooms helped develop language.
if mushroom eaters...are surviving better because of whatever it does to their brain...why can't the brain start doing it on its own?
in evolution...i think the environment and things like mushrooms can affect DNA....it just takes a really freaking long time.

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: MJF]
    #4426266 - 07/20/05 12:02 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

when cavemen ate acute quantities of mushrooms their site was better so they could hunt better
How many here have gone hunting whilst tripping? Show of hands please!

also the mushrooms helped develop language.
Evidence? On what would you base this?

i think ... things like mushrooms can affect DNA
Please post a copy of your PhD in microbiology or give sources or basis.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: Swami]
    #4426280 - 07/20/05 12:08 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Everything you experience will indirectly influence DNA.
Real end of story.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4426295 - 07/20/05 12:12 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Once again, what is your source? Because you said so? Lamarckism was discredited 150 years ago.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineMJF
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: Swami]
    #4426297 - 07/20/05 12:12 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
when cavemen ate acute quantities of mushrooms their site was better so they could hunt better
How many here have gone hunting whilst tripping? Show of hands please!

also the mushrooms helped develop language.
Evidence? On what would you base this?

i think ... things like mushrooms can affect DNA
Please post a copy of your PhD in microbiology or give sources or basis.




Dude...I'm not claiming that any of these things are true. I don't think cavemen went hunting while tripping their balls off...I did say "acute" amounts of mushrooms. Also on the language thing...while they were tripping they could have been having auditory hallucinations and they themselves probably made weird sounds and they eventually started associating specefic sounds to certain things. Like...while tripping they were in awe of something and they heard some noise and tried to recreate it and eventually they started calling it that. i don't know i'm just making shit up...but i think the theory is interesting.

Edited by MJF (07/20/05 12:16 AM)

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: MJF]
    #4426313 - 07/20/05 12:17 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Come on swami, your experiences play a main role in partnership and child-bearing, or even just survival itself.
So they do play a main (indirecte) role on DNA.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: MJF]
    #4426319 - 07/20/05 12:19 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

I assume you've read Food of the Gods by Terence Mckenna?

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OfflineMJF
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #4426326 - 07/20/05 12:20 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
I assume you've read Food of the Gods by Terence Mckenna?




No I haven't....yet. I actually just found out about it earlier today. Have you read it? If so, what did you think?

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: MJF]
    #4426334 - 07/20/05 12:23 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

The word "acute" does not apply to amount. But then again I thought you wrote that mushroom use increases one's ability to utilize language...

So you just make stuff up with zero basis because it sounds cool ? Do you understand that a theory, while being an incomplete picture, still needs SOME groundwork?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Invisiblespud
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: Swami]
    #4426347 - 07/20/05 12:28 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Swami, just out of curiosity, what's your take on Food of the Gods, and the assumptions made within.

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OfflineMJF
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: Swami]
    #4426350 - 07/20/05 12:28 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
The word "acute" does not apply to amount. But then again I thought you wrote that mushroom use increases one's ability to utilize language...

So you just make stuff up with zero basis because it sounds cool ? Do you understand that a theory, while being an incomplete picture, still needs SOME groundwork?




Acute cannot apply to amount? Are you sure about that? (edited: you're probably right on that...my grammar sucks)
I'll admit that I am incapable of forming a good theory. But what is wrong in discussing and formulating ideas? How do you think theories come about? And also...what is wrong with doing this for just entertianment purposes?

Edited by MJF (07/20/05 12:33 AM)

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: MJF]
    #4426370 - 07/20/05 12:35 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

I read the beginning of it. It was alright... I was bugged by the lack of groundwork his theory of hallucinogen evolution had. (Which is the same theory you have.) But, the whole book wasn't as groundless.
I'm planning on finishing it once I finish some of the other books I'm reading right now.

I suggest reading it if you want to know more about how psilocybin could have influenced human evolution.

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: spud]
    #4426372 - 07/20/05 12:35 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

His data to back the theory is flimsy at best and deeply flawed at worst.

What did you think of his "theory" in "True Hallucinations" wherein he claimed sound + psilocybin directly affected DNA and was about to create a race of super-humans?

Notice that his brother, a REAL scientist, totally distanced himself from that work.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

Edited by Swami (07/20/05 12:56 AM)

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Invisiblespud
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: Swami]
    #4426396 - 07/20/05 12:39 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

I'm a tad bit inebriated to say the least, but bare with me.

I'm not sure if I recall that theory, but it sounds like complete and utter shit.

It reminds me of that Japanese scientist who claimed that music was responsible for creating patterns in frozen water because water was alive. It could also clean dirty class or something.

Funny how these theories, when actuated in experiments, are never in peer reviewed journals.

The Jap guy even claims his was, though he doesn't provide any links to where it is.

I've searched for a long ass time once too.

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: Swami]
    #4426411 - 07/20/05 12:43 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
What did you think of his "theory" in "True Hallicunations" wherein he claimed sound + psilocybin directly affected DNA and was about to create a race of super-humans?




I haven't read True Hallucinations... but damn... that theory is fucking ridiculous. More baseless nonsense.

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: spud]
    #4426412 - 07/20/05 12:43 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

I'm a tad bit inebriated to say the least...

Nice to know that you are furthering evolution as we write... :lol:


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Invisiblespud
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: Swami]
    #4426422 - 07/20/05 12:44 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Transhumanism is the only way to artificially further evolution.  :grin:

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: spud]
    #4426430 - 07/20/05 12:47 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Transhumanism?
Hell yeah, brotha!
:thumbup:

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #4426453 - 07/20/05 12:50 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Are you talking about banging an alien chick?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Invisiblespud
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: Swami]
    #4426457 - 07/20/05 12:51 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Transhumanism is an emergent philosophy analysing or favouring the use of science and technology, especially neurotechnology, biotechnology, and nanotechnology, to overcome human limitations and improve the human condition.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transhumanism

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: Swami]
    #4426464 - 07/20/05 12:53 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Are you talking about banging an alien chick?




No. But thats not a bad idea.

http://www.extropy.org

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OfflineMJF
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: spud]
    #4426480 - 07/20/05 12:55 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

What is the goal of evolution? Why evolve? Just to survive better? Transhumanism sounds good...but I think we need some kind of social evolution as well.

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Invisiblespud
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: MJF]
    #4426484 - 07/20/05 12:57 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

I just want my hydraulic penis.


...

that doubles as a mp3 player.

iProd ?

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: MJF]
    #4426499 - 07/20/05 01:01 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

MJF said:
Why evolve? Just to survive better?




Sure. Survive better. Live longer and happier. Increased intellegence. Prevent/cure diseases. etc

"Specifically, transhumanism seeks to apply reason, science and technology for the purposes of reducing poverty, disease, disability, malnutrition and oppressive governments around the globe. Many transhumanists actively assess the potential for future technologies and innovative social systems to improve quality of all life, while seeking to make the material reality of the human condition fulfill the promise of legal and political equality by eliminating congenital mental and physical barriers."

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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #4426556 - 07/20/05 01:14 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

what does the majority of the scientific community think about psychedelics....for practical purposes other than recreational?

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: MJF]
    #4426599 - 07/20/05 01:23 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Which part of tha scientific community?

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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: Swami]
    #4427247 - 07/20/05 06:47 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

How many here have gone hunting whilst tripping? Show of hands please!
______________________________________________________-

I have! :grin: and so has Hue I believe. :grin: :thumbup: :thumbup:

It's quite a TRIP :wink:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: Icelander]
    #4427324 - 07/20/05 07:53 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

You shot a bunny?  :frown:


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineGomp
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: MJF]
    #4427374 - 07/20/05 08:24 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

MJF said:
A few months ago I started having these vague intuitive thoughts that hallucinogens have actually played a major role in the evoltuion of human beings. Could hallucinogens played a role in evolving us from apes into humans, actually changing our conciousness and improving our language capabilities? I've recently discovered that this is a theory held by some scientists. Does anyone know more about this? Or what do you think about this idea? :mushroom2:




""from apes into humans""

lol, why are apes still here, and not evolved in to us then?
You water-apes! :P h?h?

anyways..

feed an ape, hallucinogens, and repeate! maybe you will get an answer?

:smile:


--------------------


--------------------
Disclaimer!?

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: Swami]
    #4427379 - 07/20/05 08:27 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Ruffled Grouse to be exact.  :shocked:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: Icelander]
    #4427998 - 07/20/05 11:33 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

swami has taken over my job of repeating the definition of evolution.

replace the arcane word evolution with the generic term history, and there are certain blips that do seem affected by hallucinogens, and a temporarily more mad (transcendent) populous.

hard to measure as we are more mad now than ever.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: Icelander]
    #4428011 - 07/20/05 11:36 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

You are correct. I WENT hunting for deer with a bow...I ended up watching squirrels and butterflys and leaves and the clouds and wondering where I was and why I was so fucked up....you get the picture...no deer.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4428373 - 07/20/05 12:55 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Sounds like a real survival advantage. So much for that "theory".

Perhaps it was Cro Magnon man and not Homo Sapiens that was the early mushroom-eater.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: Icelander]
    #4428379 - 07/20/05 12:56 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Ruffled Grouse to be exact.

Hell, you would be ruffled too if hit by a shotgun blast! :eek:


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: Swami]
    #4428392 - 07/20/05 12:59 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Actually I thought I got one.  But damn, I guess I missed. Fucking patterns got in the way and blocked the shot. :tongue:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineMJF
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4428745 - 07/20/05 02:24 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
Which part of tha scientific community?



any part that is interested.
Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
You are correct. I WENT hunting for deer with a bow...I ended up watching squirrels and butterflys and leaves and the clouds and wondering where I was and why I was so fucked up....you get the picture...no deer.



you ate too many....to be helpful with your hunting.

Edited by MJF (07/20/05 02:26 PM)

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Invisiblemyndreach
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: Swami]
    #4428894 - 07/20/05 03:01 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Evolution takes place on the genetic level. Hallucinogens do not affect DNA.

End of story.




No it's not. You definately should read more about what you make blanket statements about.

Evolution is the result of certain species adapting better to environmental changes, and therefore gaining a higher chance to survive. Sometimes mutation causes these beneficial changes, but normally this isn't so. It is just the combination of the haploid gametes of the parents creating biological diversity. This diversity creates avantages and disadvantages. Those with the advantages have a higher chance of passing on their traits.

Evolution is the combination of environmental AND genetic factors. Hallucinogens in an organisms diet is an environmental condition.


Quote:

Sounds like a real survival advantage. So much for that "theory".




Psilocybin, at low sub-threshold doses, causes edge definition and binocular vision to become sharper. It also creates a higher sex drive. Hmmm...yeah I think reproducing more and being able to see better could be classified as an advantage. They also increase the ease with which the language centers process information.

So what monkeys do you think would survive better?

The ones who can see better, communicate better, and reproduce more...or the ones who can't?

Why do you have to be such an A-hole in all your responses I've seen?

Terrance McKenna spoke a lot about these things, btw. His Archaic Revival and Food of the Gods are both great books.

Edited by myndreach (07/20/05 03:05 PM)

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OfflineMJF
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: myndreach]
    #4429160 - 07/20/05 04:06 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

myndreach said:
Psilocybin, at low sub-threshold doses, causes edge definition and binocular vision to become sharper. It also creates a higher sex drive. Hmmm...yeah I think reproducing more and being able to see better could be classified as an advantage. They also increase the ease with which the language centers process information.




Thank you for posting that. It sounds so much better that way, rather then how I was articulating it.
How do you respond to myndreach's post Swami?
A little less hostility would be nice.

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: myndreach]
    #4429231 - 07/20/05 04:20 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

You definately should...
Make your point without making it about me. (I have only covered this logical fallacy about 300 times.) It adds nothing to your argument and is a bad habit.

Now perhaps you could point to some solid research that shows psilocybin causes genetic changes, but I doubt it.

Psilocybin, at low sub-threshold doses, causes edge definition and binocular vision to become sharper. It also creates a higher sex drive.

Is that you Terrence? Six billion people, with perhaps 99.999999999999999999% conceived when their parents were NOT tripping shoots down that whole theory. Sex drive in humans does not need enhancement.

Why do you have to be such an A-hole in all your responses I've seen?
And there you have it folks. When reason fails...


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: Swami]
    #4429240 - 07/20/05 04:22 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

"Sounds like a real survival advantage. So much for that "theory"

Tripping provides no survival advantage. When I was in the service I heard stories from vets about guys going into combat in Vietnam while tripping (idiots) and getting shot while immersed in the scenery or tracers or whatever.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: MJF]
    #4429241 - 07/20/05 04:23 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

A little less hostility would be nice.

Huh? There is no hostility here. That is merely your emotional response to having poorly-presented arguments deconstructed.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: Swami]
    #4429248 - 07/20/05 04:24 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
You definately should...
Make your point without making it about me. (I have only covered this logical fallacy about 300 times.) It adds nothing to your argument and is a bad habit.




Most Americans have learned about debate from watching politicians. Mudslinging is the name of that game! The idea seems to be: discredit the speaker, discredit their belief/platform.

Logic is a lost art.

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OfflineMJF
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: Swami]
    #4429270 - 07/20/05 04:27 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

"Six billion people, with perhaps 99.999999999999999999% conceived when their parents were NOT tripping shoots down that whole theory."

You are missing the point if that is what you think we are claiming...that once you eat mushrooms you become evolved.

What environmental factors could have led to a shift in conciousness from apes to humans as they are now? I think hallucinogens...as well as other foods and drugs...played a part.

"Why do you have to be such an A-hole in all your responses I've seen?
And there you have it folks. When reason fails... "

Saying that his reasoning failed just to calling you an a-hole is not much of a justification for me. People do get emotionally envolved, but they can still have reason. Plus...he called you an A-hole...after he gave all his reasoning.

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: Veritas]
    #4429279 - 07/20/05 04:28 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

This place has taught me that many people interpret disagreement of any sort as hostility. I have gotten caught up in it a few times myself, but I feel I have mostly learned better.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: MJF]
    #4429409 - 07/20/05 04:57 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

I think hallucinogens...played a part.

Third time is a charm they say. On what do you base this? You want to have a discussion, but dont discuss.

Are you going to present nothing more than a random, totally unsubstantiated idea without the slightest supporting evidence other than a cool book by a non-scientist who was in error about way too many things?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

Edited by Swami (07/20/05 05:23 PM)

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Offlinefalcon
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: MJF]
    #4429499 - 07/20/05 05:17 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Sub threshold doses are not the only things that will create
the increased ability to recognize patterns in your enviroment.
Stress and the onset of sickness are two that come to mind
immediately. It is a big jump to say that mushrooms increase someones
abilities afterwards
and a bigger jump to say that it effects their progeny.

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OfflineAislingGheal
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: Swami]
    #4430289 - 07/20/05 08:19 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Are you going to present nothing more than a random, totally unsubstantiated idea without the slightest supporting evidence other than a cool book by a non-scientist who was in error about way too many things?




I've always enjoyed Terence McKenna's works and admit that the above statement caught me by surprise, it seems you think he was a charlatan. Maybe I've had the wrong idea about McKenna, could you give some specific examples of errors he made and why he was wrong? I agree that the idea of mushroom induced human evolution is totally unsubstantiated and pure speculation, but McKenna said it was speculation not absolute truth. Do you think he was being dishonest in his presentation of himself and his ideas?


--------------------

"I hate having to pick between the lesser of two evils. But I'm glad Obama was elected. McCain was another war monger. I'd rather deal with our country going into debt than trying to take on afghanistan...oh wait FUCK!" - Fungus_tao

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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: Swami]
    #4430339 - 07/20/05 08:29 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
A little less hostility would be nice.

Huh? There is no hostility here. That is merely your emotional response to having poorly-presented arguments deconstructed.




you seem insensitive to people's emotional response to having poorly-presented arguments deconstructed.

?


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger

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OfflineTheCow
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4430413 - 07/20/05 08:47 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Hallucinogens have never made anything easier for me to understand. Even on threshold dosages, this has never been the case. I can always figure out engineering/math considerably better while sober, also reading I can understand better while sober. On threshold dosages my vision gets no better, I wear glasses, so would be very aware if my vision suddenly got sharper with no glasses. My sex drive has never increased, and in fact always decreases. The idea that humans somehow gained the ability of language through hallucinogens is interesting to me. Language is not a particularly hard concept to understand. Someone saw something, and called it some noise, now we have nouns. Maybe they were hunting, and saw a deer, and one hunter referred to it as this noun, then made a spear throwing motion, and made another sound. The other hunter could infer that this meant the action of throwing the spear at a deer is called something, now we have verbs. This is all in relation to the original noun. Original languages I am sure had words for everything, and verbs to describe actions involving specific things. Take the deer example, a hunter saw a deer, and started calling it a certain thing. In time his friend will call it that to denote if a deer is coming. One hunter creates the verb of lets go kill that shit, in relation to the deer. Now you have the verb lets go kill that shit in relation to a deer. I cant even possibly imagine how hallucinogens could play a role in that. It's a drug people, it's not sent from God, get over yourselves. Also I think it is wrong to assume that humans couldn't immediately figure out complex sounds. Sure grunts and whatnot would come more naturally, but children seem to figure out complex sounds fairly quickly. Granted they obviously have the extremely beneficial aspect of having their parents talking, but even from an extremely young age, they can sometimes make very interesting sounds, far beyond just basic grunting.

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: TheCow]
    #4431245 - 07/20/05 11:57 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

:thumbup:

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InvisibleLeftyBurnz
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: Swami]
    #4432544 - 07/21/05 09:18 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Sounds like a real survival advantage. So much for that "theory".

Perhaps it was Cro Magnon man and not Homo Sapiens that was the early mushroom-eater.




i hate to throw your case out, but i HAVE been bow hunting on a low-medium dose of shrooms and i have never been as focused hunting as i was that day, he must have eaten a much higher dosage, i ate 2 grams dried and i can definately tell you that it affected my sight, my patience and my stamina in a positive way. you cant throw out a theory because one guy ate too many shrooms and was staring at the ground instead of hunting, i got a direct heart shot on 2 deer at 50 yards and another at 65 yards, one shot each. usually im a little shaky and not too stealthy, but i was perfectly still that day and they never saw it comming.


--------------------

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: LeftyBurnz]
    #4432556 - 07/21/05 09:21 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

I am not surprised at this. A low dose has that effect on many people.


Where, may I ask. Do they allow a three deer bow season?  Hope you had use for all that meat. I can give you my address. :grin:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (07/21/05 09:23 AM)

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InvisibleLeftyBurnz
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: Icelander]
    #4432594 - 07/21/05 09:29 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

i only nailed 2, and i was right outside of the ocala national. and yes all of the meat went to use, i dont kill purely for sport, i only kill what i intend to eat. extra meat was used to make some tasty deer soup and what was left over i made deer jerky out of. there isnt anything like a good piece of deer jerky.


--------------------

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: LeftyBurnz]
    #4432820 - 07/21/05 10:22 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Yes, the way you wrote that was a little confusing. It sounded like three.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleLeftyBurnz
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: Icelander]
    #4432886 - 07/21/05 10:35 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

ohhhhh i see what you mean, yeah that does look a little confusing now that i read it again, ive also been paint balling many times on shrooms and i have to say it improved my performance there also.


--------------------

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: LeftyBurnz]
    #4432915 - 07/21/05 10:41 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

That sounds like fun,  :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineFrankieJustTrypt
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: Icelander]
    #4432919 - 07/21/05 10:43 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)



An interesting ethnography about the relationship between ayahuasca induced trances, pharmacology of the amazon, and DNA.

The Cosmic Serpent is a personal adventure, a fascinating study of anthropology and ethnopharmacology, and a revolutionary look at how intelligence and consciousness may come into being. In a first-person narrative of scientific discovery that open new perspectives on biology, anthropology, and the limits of rationalism. Jeremy Narby reveals how startlingly different the world around us appears when we open our minds to it.

Jeremy Narby, PhD, grew up in Canada and Switzerland, studied history at the University of Canterbury, and received his doctorate in anthropology from Stanford University.

Praise for THE COSMIC SERPENT:

The Cosmic Serpent reads more like a mystery novel than a standard anthropological study. I was particularly impressed by the honesty of the account, the cross disciplinary nature of the argument, and the courage and resoned conviction with which the author makes his argument.

Much is written lately about 'indigenous knowledge,' especially in the field of traditional plant and medical knowledge. The vast number of indigenous societies in the Amazon region have received much fame recently in this area because of their knowledge and use of hallucinogenic materials. Modern pharmaceuticals are especially interested in this knowledge, and many indigenous leaders and organizations have spoken about the need to protect their intellectual property rights, as well as to capture some of the economic benefits of such knowledge.

Jeremy Narby's book places the discussion of indigenous knowledge in a deeper philosophical and cosmological framework, arguing for an epistemic correspondence between the knowledge of Amazonian shamans and modern biologists. The argument which Narby make mines and reinterprets many of the sources in anthropology and biology on the subject. Some may argue that what Narby has found is mere chance or metaphoric correspondence, while others will appreciate the subleties and truth value of the argument.

Shelton H. Davis
Senior Sociologist
World Bank

There is superstition in avoiding superstition, as Bacon once remarked, and I honor Jeremy Narby for finding his way throught the numerous thickets that scientific reason has left behind in its attempts to turn plain truths of experience into the superstition it avoids. The Cosmic Serpent deals with the visionary experience that comes from taking ayahuasca, and Mr. Narby finds the claim that a plant means what it looks like is no superstition but a fact of experience: moreover, that the images of snakes and ladders that accompany the experience refer not only to the appearance of the ayahuasca vine but to that of the DNA spiral. To affirm this likeness he marshals the evidence of molecular biology and leaves the reader with the stunning intimation that the ayahuascan view of the world is none other than the scientific view seen from another perspective, that of selfhood rather than no self at all.

Francis Huxley
author of The Way of the Sacred.


--------------------
If you want a free lunch, you need to learn how to eat good advice.

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OfflineMJF
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: Swami]
    #4433658 - 07/21/05 01:51 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
I think hallucinogens...played a part.

Third time is a charm they say. On what do you base this? You want to have a discussion, but dont discuss.

Are you going to present nothing more than a random, totally unsubstantiated idea without the slightest supporting evidence other than a cool book by a non-scientist who was in error about way too many things?




I've given a couple examples of how I think they played a role in evolution (the hunting thing...and the language thing). I know that I don't have enough of supporting evidence. This is a speculative theory. But I have yet to hear your ideas on why these things are false (other than lack of evidence...which doesn't make something false..it just doesn't prove it to be true)....or what (if any) environmental factors could have played a role in our evolution? How do you think our evolution (from the mind of the ape to the human mind) came about? What are your thoughts on evolution?

Edited by MJF (07/21/05 01:53 PM)

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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: MJF]
    #4433728 - 07/21/05 02:09 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

i didn't read this thread but i think psychedelics have definitely played a roll in our culteral evolution (they have a long history of religious use) but i don't buy into any of the theories that claim they were integral in our physical evolution.

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: MJF]
    #4433791 - 07/21/05 02:22 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

the hunting thing
Even if (a HUGE if) shrooms helped with hunting, that would have no affect on genetic composition. Was the toking Olympic snow-boarder better able to pass on his skills because he smoked? There is no genetic correlation. Nor is there any archaelogical evidence linking mushrooms and hunting.

...and the language thing
The language thing? Where is there any possible correlation between serotonin levels and new permanent abilities?

Civilizations advanced rapidly in areas where there were no mushrooms or mushroom usage, such as in ancient Egypt or modern America (pre-Watson) so they were not a necessary component.

There would have to be some possible way for mushroom usage to affect genetics, there is none. Are the sons and daughters of tripping hippies from the '60s substantially different?

Whether or not I offer up a better or different theory has NOTHING to do with whether or not yours is valid, true?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

Edited by Swami (07/21/05 03:39 PM)

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: Swami]
    #4434133 - 07/21/05 03:38 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

There would have to be some possible way for mushroom usage to affect genetics, there is none. Are the sons and daughters of tripping hippies from the '60s substantially different?
_________________________________________________________

Fuck Swami, If you lived where I do you wouldn't have to ask that question. The daughters of these hippies are so fucking hot I can't believe it.  I'm not kidding, these little spawn are the most beatiful girls I have seen anywhere, ever. I'm convinced. :thumbup: :grin:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: Icelander]
    #4434148 - 07/21/05 03:41 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Fuck Swami, If you lived where I do you wouldn't have to ask that question. The daughters of these hippies are so fucking hot I can't believe it. I'm not kidding, these little spawn are the most beatiful girls I have seen anywhere, ever. I'm convinced.

You know, I have been meaning to visit you soon. Sounds like a good place for me to set up my "church".


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: Swami]
    #4434186 - 07/21/05 03:50 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Oh my, Yes,  I'm telling you. This is the believers paradise. I'm the Swami of my home town here.I'm considered a total skeptic.You would have a blast. But man these natural clear skinned beauties would knock you out. No makeup, no fix up boobs. Just beatiful. Just the place for your Church.

Come on out. You can crash at my place. :thumbup: :grin:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: Icelander]
    #4434210 - 07/21/05 03:57 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

I lived in Orange County for years. Has some of the most gorgeous babes around. They have a law that allows for the euthansia of the fat and homely.

However, I could not stand dating (most of) them. Superficiality and fakeness reigns supreme. (not you froggy :heart:) Depth is not a desirable quality. And I hate grabbing a handful of silicon or saline.

Um, not that I am into illegal activity, but how is the herb up your way? :spliff:


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: Swami]
    #4434361 - 07/21/05 04:23 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Well comeon, you can throw a stone into norther california potlands from here.  :thumbup: Not my thing anymore, but used to be.

Really there are some very cool women here where I live. I got the best one though. :heart: But I live here for the quality of the people who live here. It's without doubt the best I have seen anywhere in the ol US. But I haven't been everywhere.  It's liberal, and there is a great live and let live attitude.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: Swami]
    #4434363 - 07/21/05 04:23 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

My mother was a hippy, guess that did the trick for me!  :wink:
:hippie: :flowerchild:

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: Veritas]
    #4434378 - 07/21/05 04:25 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

You're  amazing Veritas. I love you. :heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: Icelander]
    #4434520 - 07/21/05 04:53 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

:inlove: :flowers: :birthday: :tripping: :happyheart: :hug: :iloveyou:

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