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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: Icelander]
    #4428011 - 07/20/05 11:36 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

You are correct. I WENT hunting for deer with a bow...I ended up watching squirrels and butterflys and leaves and the clouds and wondering where I was and why I was so fucked up....you get the picture...no deer.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4428373 - 07/20/05 12:55 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Sounds like a real survival advantage. So much for that "theory".

Perhaps it was Cro Magnon man and not Homo Sapiens that was the early mushroom-eater.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: Icelander]
    #4428379 - 07/20/05 12:56 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Ruffled Grouse to be exact.

Hell, you would be ruffled too if hit by a shotgun blast! :eek:


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: Swami]
    #4428392 - 07/20/05 12:59 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Actually I thought I got one.  But damn, I guess I missed. Fucking patterns got in the way and blocked the shot. :tongue:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineMJF
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4428745 - 07/20/05 02:24 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
Which part of tha scientific community?



any part that is interested.
Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
You are correct. I WENT hunting for deer with a bow...I ended up watching squirrels and butterflys and leaves and the clouds and wondering where I was and why I was so fucked up....you get the picture...no deer.



you ate too many....to be helpful with your hunting.


Edited by MJF (07/20/05 02:26 PM)


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Invisiblemyndreach
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: Swami]
    #4428894 - 07/20/05 03:01 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Evolution takes place on the genetic level. Hallucinogens do not affect DNA.

End of story.




No it's not. You definately should read more about what you make blanket statements about.

Evolution is the result of certain species adapting better to environmental changes, and therefore gaining a higher chance to survive. Sometimes mutation causes these beneficial changes, but normally this isn't so. It is just the combination of the haploid gametes of the parents creating biological diversity. This diversity creates avantages and disadvantages. Those with the advantages have a higher chance of passing on their traits.

Evolution is the combination of environmental AND genetic factors. Hallucinogens in an organisms diet is an environmental condition.


Quote:

Sounds like a real survival advantage. So much for that "theory".




Psilocybin, at low sub-threshold doses, causes edge definition and binocular vision to become sharper. It also creates a higher sex drive. Hmmm...yeah I think reproducing more and being able to see better could be classified as an advantage. They also increase the ease with which the language centers process information.

So what monkeys do you think would survive better?

The ones who can see better, communicate better, and reproduce more...or the ones who can't?

Why do you have to be such an A-hole in all your responses I've seen?

Terrance McKenna spoke a lot about these things, btw. His Archaic Revival and Food of the Gods are both great books.


Edited by myndreach (07/20/05 03:05 PM)


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OfflineMJF
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: myndreach]
    #4429160 - 07/20/05 04:06 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

myndreach said:
Psilocybin, at low sub-threshold doses, causes edge definition and binocular vision to become sharper. It also creates a higher sex drive. Hmmm...yeah I think reproducing more and being able to see better could be classified as an advantage. They also increase the ease with which the language centers process information.




Thank you for posting that. It sounds so much better that way, rather then how I was articulating it.
How do you respond to myndreach's post Swami?
A little less hostility would be nice.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: myndreach]
    #4429231 - 07/20/05 04:20 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

You definately should...
Make your point without making it about me. (I have only covered this logical fallacy about 300 times.) It adds nothing to your argument and is a bad habit.

Now perhaps you could point to some solid research that shows psilocybin causes genetic changes, but I doubt it.

Psilocybin, at low sub-threshold doses, causes edge definition and binocular vision to become sharper. It also creates a higher sex drive.

Is that you Terrence? Six billion people, with perhaps 99.999999999999999999% conceived when their parents were NOT tripping shoots down that whole theory. Sex drive in humans does not need enhancement.

Why do you have to be such an A-hole in all your responses I've seen?
And there you have it folks. When reason fails...


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: Swami]
    #4429240 - 07/20/05 04:22 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

"Sounds like a real survival advantage. So much for that "theory"

Tripping provides no survival advantage. When I was in the service I heard stories from vets about guys going into combat in Vietnam while tripping (idiots) and getting shot while immersed in the scenery or tracers or whatever.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: MJF]
    #4429241 - 07/20/05 04:23 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

A little less hostility would be nice.

Huh? There is no hostility here. That is merely your emotional response to having poorly-presented arguments deconstructed.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: Swami]
    #4429248 - 07/20/05 04:24 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
You definately should...
Make your point without making it about me. (I have only covered this logical fallacy about 300 times.) It adds nothing to your argument and is a bad habit.




Most Americans have learned about debate from watching politicians. Mudslinging is the name of that game! The idea seems to be: discredit the speaker, discredit their belief/platform.

Logic is a lost art.


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OfflineMJF
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: Swami]
    #4429270 - 07/20/05 04:27 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

"Six billion people, with perhaps 99.999999999999999999% conceived when their parents were NOT tripping shoots down that whole theory."

You are missing the point if that is what you think we are claiming...that once you eat mushrooms you become evolved.

What environmental factors could have led to a shift in conciousness from apes to humans as they are now? I think hallucinogens...as well as other foods and drugs...played a part.

"Why do you have to be such an A-hole in all your responses I've seen?
And there you have it folks. When reason fails... "

Saying that his reasoning failed just to calling you an a-hole is not much of a justification for me. People do get emotionally envolved, but they can still have reason. Plus...he called you an A-hole...after he gave all his reasoning.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: Veritas]
    #4429279 - 07/20/05 04:28 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

This place has taught me that many people interpret disagreement of any sort as hostility. I have gotten caught up in it a few times myself, but I feel I have mostly learned better.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: MJF]
    #4429409 - 07/20/05 04:57 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

I think hallucinogens...played a part.

Third time is a charm they say. On what do you base this? You want to have a discussion, but dont discuss.

Are you going to present nothing more than a random, totally unsubstantiated idea without the slightest supporting evidence other than a cool book by a non-scientist who was in error about way too many things?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Swami (07/20/05 05:23 PM)


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Offlinefalcon
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: MJF]
    #4429499 - 07/20/05 05:17 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Sub threshold doses are not the only things that will create
the increased ability to recognize patterns in your enviroment.
Stress and the onset of sickness are two that come to mind
immediately. It is a big jump to say that mushrooms increase someones
abilities afterwards
and a bigger jump to say that it effects their progeny.


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OfflineAislingGheal
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: Swami]
    #4430289 - 07/20/05 08:19 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Are you going to present nothing more than a random, totally unsubstantiated idea without the slightest supporting evidence other than a cool book by a non-scientist who was in error about way too many things?




I've always enjoyed Terence McKenna's works and admit that the above statement caught me by surprise, it seems you think he was a charlatan. Maybe I've had the wrong idea about McKenna, could you give some specific examples of errors he made and why he was wrong? I agree that the idea of mushroom induced human evolution is totally unsubstantiated and pure speculation, but McKenna said it was speculation not absolute truth. Do you think he was being dishonest in his presentation of himself and his ideas?


--------------------

"I hate having to pick between the lesser of two evils. But I'm glad Obama was elected. McCain was another war monger. I'd rather deal with our country going into debt than trying to take on afghanistan...oh wait FUCK!" - Fungus_tao


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: Swami]
    #4430339 - 07/20/05 08:29 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
A little less hostility would be nice.

Huh? There is no hostility here. That is merely your emotional response to having poorly-presented arguments deconstructed.




you seem insensitive to people's emotional response to having poorly-presented arguments deconstructed.

?


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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OfflineTheCow
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4430413 - 07/20/05 08:47 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Hallucinogens have never made anything easier for me to understand. Even on threshold dosages, this has never been the case. I can always figure out engineering/math considerably better while sober, also reading I can understand better while sober. On threshold dosages my vision gets no better, I wear glasses, so would be very aware if my vision suddenly got sharper with no glasses. My sex drive has never increased, and in fact always decreases. The idea that humans somehow gained the ability of language through hallucinogens is interesting to me. Language is not a particularly hard concept to understand. Someone saw something, and called it some noise, now we have nouns. Maybe they were hunting, and saw a deer, and one hunter referred to it as this noun, then made a spear throwing motion, and made another sound. The other hunter could infer that this meant the action of throwing the spear at a deer is called something, now we have verbs. This is all in relation to the original noun. Original languages I am sure had words for everything, and verbs to describe actions involving specific things. Take the deer example, a hunter saw a deer, and started calling it a certain thing. In time his friend will call it that to denote if a deer is coming. One hunter creates the verb of lets go kill that shit, in relation to the deer. Now you have the verb lets go kill that shit in relation to a deer. I cant even possibly imagine how hallucinogens could play a role in that. It's a drug people, it's not sent from God, get over yourselves. Also I think it is wrong to assume that humans couldn't immediately figure out complex sounds. Sure grunts and whatnot would come more naturally, but children seem to figure out complex sounds fairly quickly. Granted they obviously have the extremely beneficial aspect of having their parents talking, but even from an extremely young age, they can sometimes make very interesting sounds, far beyond just basic grunting.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: TheCow]
    #4431245 - 07/20/05 11:57 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

:thumbup:


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InvisibleLeftyBurnz
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Re: Hallucinogens and Human Evolution [Re: Swami]
    #4432544 - 07/21/05 09:18 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Sounds like a real survival advantage. So much for that "theory".

Perhaps it was Cro Magnon man and not Homo Sapiens that was the early mushroom-eater.




i hate to throw your case out, but i HAVE been bow hunting on a low-medium dose of shrooms and i have never been as focused hunting as i was that day, he must have eaten a much higher dosage, i ate 2 grams dried and i can definately tell you that it affected my sight, my patience and my stamina in a positive way. you cant throw out a theory because one guy ate too many shrooms and was staring at the ground instead of hunting, i got a direct heart shot on 2 deer at 50 yards and another at 65 yards, one shot each. usually im a little shaky and not too stealthy, but i was perfectly still that day and they never saw it comming.


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