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Invisiblespud
I'm so fly.

Registered: 10/07/02
Posts: 44,410
Church
    #4425072 - 07/19/05 09:23 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

So I started going to church as of late, mostly just to please my gal but also for some slight self interest.

I soon noticed an attribute of church that I found utmost...annoying. It does not leave space for response, discussion, argument, or any sort of contradictory arguing in the name of progressing the truth.

I told my gal I wanted to talk to the preacher about a certain issue of morality because I found his reasoning flawed and she gave me one hell of a look. She thought I was insane.

Imagine if I subjected under the same "norms" within academia? If I couldn't challenge my professor.

And they say they want creationism taught at schools?

How? How could they have a doctrine relying on sole acceptance and the rejection of contradictory based arguments?

It's as if me wanting to discuss the issues deeper was rude in some way.

Okay, that's my rant for today.

Enjoy.


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Offlinecrunchytoast
oppositional

Registered: 04/07/05
Posts: 1,133
Loc: aporia
Last seen: 10 years, 1 month
Re: Church [Re: spud]
    #4425125 - 07/19/05 09:33 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

I told my gal I wanted to talk to the preacher about a certain issue of morality because I found his reasoning flawed and she gave me one hell of a look. She thought I was insane.




that doesnt sound insane to me.


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
waiting
Male

Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 10 years, 7 months
Re: Church [Re: spud]
    #4425153 - 07/19/05 09:37 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

spud said:
So I started going to church as of late, mostly just to please my gal but also for some slight self interest.

I soon noticed an attribute of church that I found utmost...annoying. It does not leave space for response, discussion, argument, or any sort of contradictory arguing in the name of progressing the truth.

I told my gal I wanted to talk to the preacher about a certain issue of morality because I found his reasoning flawed and she gave me one hell of a look. She thought I was insane.

Imagine if I subjected under the same "norms" within academia? If I couldn't challenge my professor.

And they say they want creationism taught at schools?

How? How could they have a doctrine relying on sole acceptance and the rejection of contradictory based arguments?

It's as if me wanting to discuss the issues deeper was rude in some way.

Okay, that's my rant for today.

Enjoy.




church is an institution of people that accept bible as the untimate truth. It is not an institution seeking truth, it is an institution that believes has found the truth. That is why there is no room for discussion. If you have doubts, obviously you are in the wrong place.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Invisiblespud
I'm so fly.

Registered: 10/07/02
Posts: 44,410
Re: Church [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4425155 - 07/19/05 09:37 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Me neither.

I wanted to raise my hand or something half way through.

I restrained.

I don't see how people can just sit through a lecture on ethics or morality and not have an urge to give input or ask questions, some of which may be challenging to the core.


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Invisiblespud
I'm so fly.

Registered: 10/07/02
Posts: 44,410
Re: Church [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4425161 - 07/19/05 09:38 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
If you have doubts, obviously you are in the wrong place.




Funny you say that. I've been to 3 churches so far. All have said "If you have doubts, you are in the RIGHT place".

Then they go on how you only need the faith of a mustard seed, and that they believe they can give you that.


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InvisibleAbstractHarmonix
Love is like a train...
Female

Registered: 07/09/04
Posts: 3,509
Loc: The Sea
Re: Church [Re: spud]
    #4425175 - 07/19/05 09:40 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

People who hold a high trust in something get irritatated and basically offended if you question their beliefs, and even stronger than that, their mentors beliefs...

I have been to quite a few churches, and discusses topics with preachers. some of them have very wise minds, very enlightened. and they do consider options for their belief system that may be considered "out of the religious box" in question...

It depends on how you go about it. dont attack their conclusions, merely offer another, and let them feed off of it. maybe you could bring your gal into the discussion.

but try to refrain from such words as false, fluke, flaws...


--------------------
A plethora of music aspirations control my temptations of future revelations beyond "now". The percussion, and the heart beat of my love and devotion. The rhythm goes beyond, prying into the third eye, releasing the creativity held so far inside. The melodicies, through the out of tune pianos and broken classical guitars...there lies a beauty. A beauty as prevelent as the fire inside. To release these energies is pure ecstacy, to deveop these gifts is sacred. The vocality, so pure as can be, shying away from herself, lies within me. For the underlying serenitity, this is what I live for. I plea for harmony, and nothing more. Music equals love. Creation of love leads to the procreativity of the World, and it's spirals and puddles prevailing.


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InvisibleAbstractHarmonix
Love is like a train...
Female

Registered: 07/09/04
Posts: 3,509
Loc: The Sea
Re: Church [Re: spud]
    #4425185 - 07/19/05 09:42 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

spud said:
Me neither.

I wanted to raise my hand or something half way through.

I restrained.

I don't see how people can just sit through a lecture on ethics or morality and not have an urge to give input or ask questions, some of which may be challenging to the core.




i can relate, definitely. with the wanting to raise your hand bit, in the middle of a lecture. you can always talk to the preacher man after the lecture. just take good notes and write question s in the margins...


--------------------
A plethora of music aspirations control my temptations of future revelations beyond "now". The percussion, and the heart beat of my love and devotion. The rhythm goes beyond, prying into the third eye, releasing the creativity held so far inside. The melodicies, through the out of tune pianos and broken classical guitars...there lies a beauty. A beauty as prevelent as the fire inside. To release these energies is pure ecstacy, to deveop these gifts is sacred. The vocality, so pure as can be, shying away from herself, lies within me. For the underlying serenitity, this is what I live for. I plea for harmony, and nothing more. Music equals love. Creation of love leads to the procreativity of the World, and it's spirals and puddles prevailing.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
waiting
Male

Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 10 years, 7 months
Re: Church [Re: spud]
    #4425195 - 07/19/05 09:45 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

spud said:
Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
If you have doubts, obviously you are in the wrong place.




Funny you say that. I've been to 3 churches so far. All have said "If you have doubts, you are in the RIGHT place".

Then they go on how you only need the faith of a mustard seed, and that they believe they can give you that.




they say that because they are not aware of what kind of institution they are. They think they are seeking and finding truth, and that others should be helped to find it too.
but they do not seek truth, nor find it. They feel it or decide it (or are brought up that way), and If you don't decide that bible is truth, or don't feel that it is right, you should find other things to amuse yourself with.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
Mr. Dogma Free
Male User Gallery

Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 20,820
Loc: The Hand
Re: Church [Re: spud]
    #4425253 - 07/19/05 09:59 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

So I started going to church as of late, mostly just to please my gal

So you go to church to "please your gal", but instead of being the quiet supportive type, you raise a ruckus because the preacher's sermon was "flawed".

No wonder your "gal" looked at you like you were insane. Can you blame her?

Maybe it's time to find yourself a hip "chick" instead of your steady "gal".


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


Edited by LunarEclipse (07/19/05 10:19 PM)


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Offlinecrunchytoast
oppositional

Registered: 04/07/05
Posts: 1,133
Loc: aporia
Last seen: 10 years, 1 month
Re: Church [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #4425436 - 07/19/05 10:50 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

but instead of being the quiet supportive type, you raise a ruckus




being supportive means being quiet?


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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Offlinecrunchytoast
oppositional

Registered: 04/07/05
Posts: 1,133
Loc: aporia
Last seen: 10 years, 1 month
Re: Church [Re: spud]
    #4425448 - 07/19/05 10:53 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:


Me neither.

I wanted to raise my hand or something half way through.

I restrained.

I don't see how people can just sit through a lecture on ethics or morality and not have an urge to give input or ask questions, some of which may be challenging to the core.





it's like you have this need to question


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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Invisibleniteowl
GrandPaw
Male User Gallery

Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc: Flag
Re: Church [Re: spud]
    #4425985 - 07/20/05 12:55 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

spud said:
I wanted to raise my hand or something half way through.

I restrained.

I don't see how people can just sit through a lecture on ethics or morality and not have an urge to give input or ask questions, some of which may be challenging to the core.




I fully understand how you feel.

I have had several (4-5) preachers in my home. Virtually every one wanted to continue their rant/sermon. They couldn't/wouldn't discuss a different pov from their "scripture".

I met one preacher that I could actually have a rational discussion with. He was able to see thru the text and understand the message it was trying to teach.

This is the PRIMARY reason that I don't go to church.


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OfflineMJF
Human Being
 User Gallery

Registered: 06/27/05
Posts: 1,810
Loc: Between 15 and 45 degrees...
Last seen: 8 years, 5 days
Re: Church [Re: niteowl]
    #4426262 - 07/20/05 02:01 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Your girlfriend obviously has some kind of weird perception.

I'm almost certain that the preacher would have loved to talk to you about your doubts after the sermon. You should have done it regardless of what your girlfriend thought, it would have been good for you, her, and the preacher.


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Invisiblespud
I'm so fly.

Registered: 10/07/02
Posts: 44,410
Re: Church [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #4426322 - 07/20/05 02:20 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
So I started going to church as of late, mostly just to please my gal

So you go to church to "please your gal", but instead of being the quiet supportive type, you raise a ruckus because the preacher's sermon was "flawed".






Can you please point out where I stated that I began to raise a ruckus?

Not everyone is as sedated as you, some have the intellect that provokes a will to discuss.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
waiting
Male

Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 10 years, 7 months
Re: Church [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4427238 - 07/20/05 08:41 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

crunchytoast said:
Quote:

but instead of being the quiet supportive type, you raise a ruckus




being supportive means being quiet?





if you came here to make your girl happy, then you should act as she would want you to act.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
Mr. Dogma Free
Male User Gallery

Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 20,820
Loc: The Hand
Re: Church [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4427255 - 07/20/05 08:52 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

if you came here to make your girl happy, then you should act as she would want you to act.


Thank You Old Wood, that's the point I was trying to make. To please your "gal" means you sit quietly and listen to the sermon. If you can't act the part, perhaps it's time to find a new movie.


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
Mr. Dogma Free
Male User Gallery

Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 20,820
Loc: The Hand
Re: Church [Re: spud]
    #4427295 - 07/20/05 09:36 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Can you please point out where I stated that I began to raise a ruckus

OK, how about this for some serious ruckus potential -

"I told my gal I wanted to talk to the preacher about a certain issue of morality because I found his reasoning flawed and she gave me one hell of a look. She thought I was insane.

Let me understand this. You were going to confront the preacher of your girl friends church after the sermon in front of others in the congregation. The purpose of this confrontation was to debate his "flawed reasoning" on a moral issue.

And you wonder why your "gal" thought you were insane? That plan of action has "ruckus" written all over it.

There is a time and a place to debate things. Your choice that day in church was bad as to time and place.

Not everyone is as sedated as you, some have the intellect that provokes a will to discuss.

I learned long ago that a "discussion" with church people is useless because they will NOT change their position and will not even consider yours. Why waste the time and energy? I used to invite the Mormon missionaries back to my house a second time out of curiousity and for some laughs but that was years ago. Now, when the Jehovah's Witness people come around, I don't even talk with them beyond "No Thanks, Not Interested." I don't even let them leave their brochure. No point in giving them any kind of encouragement.

Even had you politely met with the preacher at some later time and in the privacy of his office, I doubt he would have changed his position or seriously considered yours. Still, that would have been the way to have handled it, and only after talking about the situation with your lady friend. If she had said no to your potential meeting with him, you should honor that and not call him. It's her church, right? You are just a guest? Am I missing something here?


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


Edited by LunarEclipse (07/20/05 09:39 AM)


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InvisibleFucknuckle
Dog Lover

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
Re: Church [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #4427877 - 07/20/05 01:10 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Most churches.....I'd say 99%. Are in the business of entertainment. The doctrine they preach is just a very small part of the real deal they are after. If they were to have open discussion during service there entire program would be at risk. Remember that churches have payroll. They pay the pastor, his wife, the music dirctor, the seceritary, the bus driver, the maintiance guys. the bible study teachers, visiting preachers, etc...... Church is a business with many people's lives depending on the income stream provided by the tithes and offerings. I have been deeply involved in all aspects of " Church business" It sucks........

So if a stranger was to question the pastor in public during a service well then, that would lead to unrest and a possiable disrespect of the pastor. Or even worse you might get some of the long time givers a reason to question the church itself and stop giving. There is no way anyone is going to risk thier paycheck.

Church is a theater nothing more. Oh don't get me wrong I truly believe there are pastors who start off right. Most in fact but, as soon as the cash starts flowing.... out goes all of what Jesus taught.:rolleyes:

I left the mainstream church becasue of this very thing your talking about. My argument was that church is a body of people and not a few people living off the body. When my last term as a " Ordained " person ended it was over an debate on how best to handle the cash flow.

I wanted to post all incoming and outgoing cash in the hallway for all to see. To pay only the light bill, morgage, food, etc..... You know the nitty gritty of what it takes to run a church. Then all the cash left over was to be alloted to a public fund. Then the " Body " of the church could get toghter once a month and take care of urgent need of members in the church " Body " then what was left over would be divided into two catagories..... One needs in the community and second.... Future plans of the church I.E. expansions and new buses etc.....

The pastor need to get a Job just like the rest of us.

Oh yeah that went over like a lead zepplin :grin:

In any case I suggest that you continue to go to church but give very little if any. If you want to give to God do so with what lies within your heart. Giving to the needy in private so only you and God knows. That is what God really is after, Love and the gift of giving. The Lord will reward gifts in private. Gifts that you give when you yourself can not afford to give, he loves the best. To give more than you have, to put others before yourself is Love. :heart:

Don't give to a church unless you know exactly where your cash is going. Church has much to teach but it also has much to take :blush:

I know your points had nothing to do with Offerings but somehow I just ended up there.......


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InvisibleFucknuckle
Dog Lover

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
Re: Church [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #4427888 - 07/20/05 01:12 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
Am I missing something here?




Yes you missed his entire point.........


--------------------
What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 93,974
Loc: underbelly
Re: Church [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #4427920 - 07/20/05 01:17 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Fucknuckle said:
Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
  Am I missing something here?




Yes you missed his entire point.........




He's right Lunar, Spud just wanted to rant about Christianity. That's one we've never heard before. :grin:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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