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Invisiblepeepeepottypants
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Registered: 04/02/05
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How selfish is suicide
    #4422465 - 07/19/05 08:29 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

SO recently I began two books
The Art of Happiness and The Bell Jar
I havent gotten far in either so this idea may be completly skewed.

In the Art of Happiness the Dali llama makes the point that he believes our "goal" in life is to find true happiness.

In a time where Depression seems to be around so many corners, could it be that its a reaction to the ever growing population...a population stabalizer. Maybe not depression, but I do believe that there are a lot of people who have lost the will to even seek happiness, and perhaps suicide supports Darwinism where only the strong survive. Now I understand the reprocussions that suicide can have like transferring depression even suicidal thoughts onto stable people.

It really does seem like a selfish act for many reason,
but is it possible it serves a better purpose.
Since now it doesnt seem that Darwinism is a very strong force in western culture is it possible that depression and suicide are stabilizers of society


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: How selfish is suicide [Re: peepeepottypants]
    #4422616 - 07/19/05 10:29 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

you're saying that suicide stabilizes society by killing the "weakest" people?

how would the deaths of the weakest stabilize society?


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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Invisiblepeepeepottypants
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Re: How selfish is suicide [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4422685 - 07/19/05 10:59 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

well, theres no doubt that theres an overpopulation of people. The rate of human population increases exponentially. A continuation of this rate would eventually be cause to our own demise.

Just an idea and possible suggestion for the increasing rates of depression.


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OfflineWeAreAllOne
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Re: How selfish is suicide [Re: peepeepottypants]
    #4422700 - 07/19/05 11:07 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Does true happiness lie in personal happiness?


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: How selfish is suicide [Re: WeAreAllOne]
    #4422766 - 07/19/05 11:28 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

oh okay, i understand.

i have another question.

if there's something like a suicidal "gene", why would it remain in the population for long? wouldn't it tend to eliminate itself over a few generations of natural selection? how does an individual having a suicidal gene give the gene a better chance of transmission?

after all, the gene "cares" only about its own survival, not about the survival of the population.


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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Invisiblepeepeepottypants
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Re: How selfish is suicide [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4422828 - 07/19/05 11:43 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I believe that true happiness lies in being content with oneness of all things, the realization and incorperation of how to live the most serving life, and happiness comes in ones realization of purpose (like I said Im no where near the end of the book, so these are my beliefs not that which is noted in the book)

Perhaps, a suicidal gene becomes more prominent and easier to transmit once realized as well, perhaps realization is the catalyst for a gene that exists in all of us.

Perhaps it has nothing to do with genes, but rather an increase in an overall mental perspective. It appears that behavior and attitude can be contagious, perhaps its the manifestation of the negetive impact human culture has left in the surrounding world.

I think my thoughts would side with the latter


Edited by peepeepottypants (07/19/05 11:44 AM)


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InvisibleFucknuckle
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Re: How selfish is suicide [Re: peepeepottypants]
    #4422846 - 07/19/05 11:51 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

There is a deep, if not instinctual desire to be in control of our life. That is what we do in life, control this or that. Suicide is a result of a person being unable to control there own life.

It has always been my opioion that suicide is the last thing we can control after being unable to believe we can control our life. " I can control my destiny and I will " Even if the sucidial person is not aware of this fact. Suicide is natural as hunger but surly is not the best answer to losing control of one's life. Control is the best answer to freewill.

Suicide is not selfish I don't think. It is freewill unleashed in a bid for control.


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What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: How selfish is suicide [Re: peepeepottypants]
    #4423117 - 07/19/05 12:55 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

how selfish is wanting a person to stick around in a torturous life, simply because 'we would miss them if they were gone'?


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peace, pot, and microdot!


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InvisibleSociety
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Re: How selfish is suicide [Re: DoctorJ]
    #4423247 - 07/19/05 01:25 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

DoctorJ makes the point that I was going to. It's up to a person to decide their own life- 'to be or not to be'. Selfish? Yes, but there's NOTHING wrong with that. It's even more selfish for the other people who want you to stay because 'we would miss them if they were gone'.


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OfflineJon
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Re: How selfish is suicide [Re: Society]
    #4423383 - 07/19/05 01:54 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Desparity is selfish as well


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OfflineTubOlucinogens
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Re: How selfish is suicide [Re: DoctorJ]
    #4423912 - 07/19/05 04:31 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
how selfish is wanting a person to stick around in a torturous life, simply because 'we would miss them if they were gone'?




I think that this is a very poignant statement in pertinence to suicide.

Funerals are not held for the dead, but for the living.


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OfflineJutboy
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Re: How selfish is suicide [Re: TubOlucinogens]
    #4426267 - 07/20/05 02:02 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

To view suicide as selfish is to imply that they are killing themselves for their own benefit. But of course, to destroy oneself is the ulimate act of self-lessness as you are destroying yourself. To negates any application of benefit.

Its a hard point to make, I'm not sure if I'm clear. Its not that I don't understand your point but try to grasp mine.


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InvisiblePriitK
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Re: How selfish is suicide [Re: Jutboy]
    #4426506 - 07/20/05 03:01 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

They really wouldn't miss much if someone killed them self anyways. Earth is just a small part of who you are, when you sleep you exist in more dimensions then you know.

Maybe if they kill them self they will turn into angels/ghosts (then fuck with people) and have 100% happiness like me on earth. Hopefully you will all experience my happiness, the happiness i have makes doing nothing more fun then having everything, but I also have everything I need. w0rd


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I don't do drugs....I am drugs


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InvisiblePriitK
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Re: How selfish is suicide [Re: PriitK]
    #4426520 - 07/20/05 03:04 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I used to be depressed, have chronic pain but your mind can overcome it by simply thinking positively...i also had an old neighbor come to my house that used to live here about 30 years ago but he moved away. He made me get up and get out of the house and do stuff. I think god sent him for me, now im fine. its pretty cool how things play off like this


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I don't do drugs....I am drugs


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Invisiblepeepeepottypants
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Re: How selfish is suicide [Re: PriitK]
    #4427277 - 07/20/05 09:17 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

But could it be considerred selfish in a spiritual sense.

although you may feel you ready for death, is it that your ready for death or just sick of life. One could say life is a preparation for death. If one commits suicide, doesnt it somehow deem their life pointless if all it did was cause pain.

I suppose I myself dont have the most clearcut opinion on suicide, so Im just giving some counteropinions.

this may have taken this topic outta the mental health perspective, I dunnno


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Invisiblepeepeepottypants
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Re: How selfish is suicide [Re: peepeepottypants]
    #4427281 - 07/20/05 09:22 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

*used to be depressed, have chronic pain but your mind can overcome it by simply thinking positively*

the mind is a more powerful thing than most give it credit, and its absolutely wonderful you could find the strength to overcome you depression.

but if a person has lost the will to seek satisfaction in life, then theres only so much (if anything) that outside solace can do


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InvisibleSociety
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Re: How selfish is suicide [Re: peepeepottypants]
    #4428882 - 07/20/05 04:59 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Well, people pretty much ALWAYS do what is easiest/most convenient for them. Suicide, while it may seem like the hardest decision to make, is an option that seems more convenient/easier than for them to stay alive and deal with whatever peeved them to the point of suicide.

As for the spiritual sense, I guess that depends on how the person thinks.


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Offlineilikebigbuds21
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Re: How selfish is suicide [Re: peepeepottypants]
    #4458937 - 07/27/05 05:52 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Suicide is only selfish to the people who think it is selfish to commit suicide.


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I just drink

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Blacks don't eat mushrooms. You can't be black. It's impossible.


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Offlinegotmagog
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Re: How selfish is suicide [Re: ilikebigbuds21]
    #4465050 - 07/28/05 05:11 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

From a humanist point of view, I think that every person has the right to control his own body and do with it whatever he wants, regardless of the opinions of others.

I used to think that suicide is a valid way out of life if the pain, physical or emotional, is too much.

However, several years later and (at least i think so)doing some maturing and gathering perspective on life, i now think that suicide is not the answer. I agree that "life is a preparation for death" and if one escapes too early he won't have understood what is necessary(and will probably be reborn to suffer again until he understands it, but that is going a bit off topic into spiritual and religious realms..)

The suicide option which i still support is euthanasia in the case of terminally ill patients. When one is old, has cancer and no chance of surviving, when one is bound to a hospital bed with tubes in him, without a chance to experience the outside world again,than sucide is a valid choice. One has probably learned enough in his life and the last months/years of torments in a hospital bed are senseless sadism, probably for the loved ones too(unleess such pains are also good teachers, but this idea terrifies me, the world can't be so unfair, animals die quickly usually, man can prolong for years the agony via medical technology)


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OfflineThe_Hobbit
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Re: How selfish is suicide [Re: gotmagog]
    #4465114 - 07/28/05 05:31 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I don't see any logical reason to commit suicide, other than what gotmagog pointed out; being terminally ill with nothing, but pain to look forward to.

You can live or you can die. Sure, it may not matter. Maybe there is an afterlife and you're just getting there sooner. Maybe we cease to exist after this life, so we die with nothing anyways. But why would you want to forgo life? We have a chance to exist. Whether or not your life is 'shitty', you're still alive. If you have one thing to live for, that's reason enough to keep going. Anyone who doesn't have anything to live for put themselves in that hopeless situation.

I don't judge people who commit suicide. It's their decision to make. I don't agree with their decision, though.


--------------------
Smoking my hobbit leaf...
Please keep in mind that I am just a human being. Please read my posts carefully and interpret their meaning for yourself.


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