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OfflinePhred
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Answers for Paradigm
    #4419067 - 07/18/05 03:37 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

The purpose of this thread is to answer a question (and a followup) asked by Paradigm in this thread http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/4402782/an/0/page/1 titled "What would you say..."

I had declined to answer them until Paradigm got around to answering the question posed in that thread:

Quote:

"A question that I ask of my colleagues on the left who opposed the war is, What would you say to the Iraqi person who asked you one year later why you stood against our liberation? I have not yet been able to get a meaningful answer to that question because all of the possible answers--pertaining, for example, to resisting American empire, obeying international law, preventing the death of civilians, taking moral stands against war itself as a crime--would mean that the average Iraqi would still be subject to his terror, enslaved to tyranny, and denied the basic human rights that liberals purportedly cherish as central to their own existences."




Since Paradigm has now answered that question:

Quote:

"Allow me to rephrase so as to make it perfectly clear: In response to his question of why I oppose his liberation, my answer would be that I don't."




I will fulfill my promise and answer his. Here they are:



Quote:

1) -- Turn the question around. What would you say to the Iraqis who don't want us there, and see us as occupiers, not liberators?




I would say to them, "The governments of the coalition countries involved in removing Hussein's Ba'athist regime by force determined that the regime was a threat both to Iraq and to other countries as well. Since Iraqis had proven incapable of removing that regime by themselves, the coalition countries decided to do so. When the government of Iraq decides they are able to provide security for the people of Iraq by themselves and requests the personnel of the coalition countries to leave, they will leave."



Quote:

2) -- I have a follow-up question: Why would you force the burden of liberating the Iraqi people onto the American taxpayers?




I wouldn't.


Phred


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Answers for Paradigm [Re: Phred]
    #4419074 - 07/18/05 03:40 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

:rofl:

I never thought you were going to answer that one.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Answers for Paradigm [Re: Redstorm]
    #4419094 - 07/18/05 03:46 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Circumstances compelled me to take a three day break from the internet.



Phred


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Answers for Paradigm [Re: Phred]
    #4419760 - 07/18/05 06:00 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Why would you force the burden of liberating the Iraqi people onto the American taxpayers?




Fortunately, no-one had to. They seemed to be pleased as punch about it.


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InvisibleIsaacHunt
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Re: Answers for Paradigm [Re: Phred]
    #4419761 - 07/18/05 06:01 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

would say to them, "The governments of the coalition countries involved in removing Hussein's Ba'athist regime by force determined that the regime was a threat both to Iraq and to other countries as well.

Don't confuse the propaganda story with fact. WMD was a smokescreen for invasion, not the reason for it.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Answers for Paradigm [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #4419767 - 07/18/05 06:02 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Last I checked, most Americans said they considered Iraq to be a "mistake." Assuming most of those respondents pay taxes, I'd say the burden is being forced upon them.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Answers for Paradigm [Re: Silversoul]
    #4419966 - 07/18/05 07:00 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Last time you checked where?


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Answers for Paradigm [Re: Silversoul]
    #4419993 - 07/18/05 07:07 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

And besides that it is irrelevant whether or not they support it now. They supported it in the beginning. Now we're committed to it wether we like it or not. If we just get bored with the project, forget about it, and let Iraq slip back into another totalatarian regime, then we deserve to be nuked.


Anybody who supported it in the beginning and is pussing out now can just stick a shotgun in their mouth and pull the fucking trigger.


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Answers for Paradigm [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #4420012 - 07/18/05 07:12 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Anybody who supported it in the beginning




I don't think there was EVER alot of support for the invasion of Iraq...hence the huge protests.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Answers for Paradigm [Re: Phred]
    #4420024 - 07/18/05 07:14 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

The "huge" protests were just a very vocal minority.

I believe 70%-80% of Americans were behind the war in the beginning.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Answers for Paradigm [Re: Rono]
    #4420032 - 07/18/05 07:16 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Rono said:
Quote:

Anybody who supported it in the beginning




I don't think there was EVER alot of support for the invasion of Iraq...hence the huge protests.



I went to one such protest, before we actually invaded, and thus opposed the war from the get-go. There were hundreds of other people there, with much larger protests elsewhere throughout the world. I'm fairly confident in assuming that most of the people who showed up were taxpayers. They may not have been the majority, but they still had the burden of the war forced upon them by the tyranny of the majority.


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Answers for Paradigm [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #4420033 - 07/18/05 07:16 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

I think those numbers are pretty high...I'll see if I can find a link.


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Answers for Paradigm [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #4420044 - 07/18/05 07:19 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Anybody who supported it in the beginning and is pussing out now can just stick a shotgun in their mouth and pull the fucking trigger.




That's a pretty caloused satement considering the initial reasons to support the war that were provided to the public were 100% bullshit.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Answers for Paradigm [Re: Silversoul]
    #4420172 - 07/18/05 07:58 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Hmmm. Here we have two apparently contradictory statements from Paradigm:




"Allow me to rephrase so as to make it perfectly clear: In response to his question of why I oppose his liberation, my answer would be that I don't."

and

"I went to one such protest, before we actually invaded, and thus opposed the war from the get-go."






How do we resolve this apparent contradiction? I can think of a few of possibilities:

1) At the time he attended the protests Paradigm opposed the liberation of Iraq, but he has since changed his mind about it.

2) Paradigm feels that the Iraqis aren't yet liberated.

3) Paradigm doesn't oppose the liberation of Iraqis per se, but feels it should have been someone other than the member countries of the coalition doing the liberating.

Did I miss any possibilities? What say you, Paradigm?



Phred


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Answers for Paradigm [Re: Rono]
    #4420229 - 07/18/05 08:11 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Reality is harsh. We have made a committment, and we have to see it through.


Crying about the dollar cost now is just pathetic.

If someone wanted us out because they felt that we were doing more harm than good being there at this point, then I guess that would be a valid opinion.


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Answers for Paradigm [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #4420465 - 07/18/05 09:06 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
The "huge" protests were just a very vocal minority.

I believe 70%-80% of Americans were behind the war in the beginning.




but then again 70-80% of americans can't name a single
member of the supreme court but can name the past 3
American Idols.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Answers for Paradigm [Re: afoaf]
    #4420503 - 07/18/05 09:16 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

afoaf said:
Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
The "huge" protests were just a very vocal minority.

I believe 70%-80% of Americans were behind the war in the beginning.




but then again 70-80% of americans can't name a single
member of the supreme court but can name the past 3
American Idols.




So, should they even be allowed to vote? We should run the country for them because we are way smarter and pay much more attention. Oh, wait a minute, I pay more attention than you and are smarter than you so my vote should count more than yours. So let's just consider how much more my vote should count. SAT scores good for you? Acreage? What kind of current events questions and who picks and phrases them? Even idiots get a vote. That's why we still have the Massachusetts submariner in the Senate.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Answers for Paradigm [Re: afoaf]
    #4420644 - 07/18/05 09:57 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

If this liberation fails, I'm swearing off war for good.


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Offlinecb9fl
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Re: Answers for Paradigm [Re: Phred]
    #4420964 - 07/18/05 11:17 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

How do we resolve this apparent contradiction? I can think of a few of possibilities:

Because he supported the end result but not the means?


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"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Answers for Paradigm [Re: cb9fl]
    #4421009 - 07/18/05 11:25 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

That would be option 3).



Phred


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