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InvisibleSinbad
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On God!
    #4414946 - 07/17/05 03:33 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

If God is perfect, and we created in his image, then us and this world must be perfect reflections of that divine perfection. How can imperfection come from perfection? Logic tells us that this is cannot be so, therefore, from a Christian point of view, we are all perfect, since the very beginning, and "sin" can be in this context, is just that which obscures our knowing the state of all things, as it is. The kingdom of heaven is here, NOW, we need to re-cognize this, but don't be deluded, this takes much patience and effort.

If God knows all, and sees  all, then there is not a single action that we have done that God is unaware of. If we are just a pure reflection of God, then our nature must be God, and if God is all knowing, and we are a reflection of that awareness, then God must be the knowing quality of our being, that projects this creation into existence.

If God is also omnipresent as well as omnipotent, then like space, he must be completely open and empty as well as universally cognizant. If we examine ourselves more, we can become more familiar with God, we can cut through the layers of sin, the veil of ignorance we have created through not knowing, that obscures our being in union with his primordially divine perfection.

The two BIGGEST mistakes a spiritual practitioner can make are as follows.

1. Thinking one is God, Buddha, Enlightened, <--- insert your own definition here. This mistake is when one assumes spiritual concepts to be true, such as "Everything is Enlightenment", or "Everything is the nature of God", without analysis, reasoning, and practical application of a method to realize the truth, people continue in their ignorance, thinking, "There is no need to practice, or make any effort, as everything is already completely perfect". With this idea, one can never progress spiritually, as one never applies the practical application needed to realize this divine perfection, instead one only remains in ignorance, assuming a spiritual concept to be true.

2. Thinking that practice is too difficult . This is where one tries to use a method, but gives up thinking that it is too difficult, and not worth the effort. One might think "Oh, this spiritual thing is too difficult, I'm a Nice enough guy, ill just invite a few friends around for a BBQ, we'll crack open a few beers, smoke a few joints, we'll just go for it, oh yeah!" :lol:.  This is where one falls under the influence, of laziness, stubbornness, and ignorance, which leads to not putting into practice a suitable method, toward realization.

Heartfelt dediction, discipline, perservance, and a beginners mind, are the best remedies for these two mistakes.


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Edited by Sinbad (07/17/05 04:15 PM)


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: On God! [Re: Sinbad]
    #4415099 - 07/17/05 04:37 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Creation is imperfect, whereas GOD is perfect in the sense of complete, not lacking. If creation was perfect, it would cease to be creation, which is what Eastern Orthodox spirituality aspires to: 'Theosis' - the transmutation of creature into Deity. However, like a 3-stage rocket, the body and mind must be jettisoned - only spirit is assimilable to Spirit (theologically speaking). This existence is the 'crucible' in which dross is converted to spiritual Gold. Or not.

I tend to agree with your statement about
"knowing" in a Gnostic sense, a Kabbalistic sense [Da'ath - the invisible sephiroth in the 'Abyss'], and even in a Hindu sense of 'Sat-Chit-Ananda' - Being-Knowledge-Bliss.

I have a pet notion - that GOD sustains existence from the Infinitesimal Center of eack 'point' in the fabric of space-time. I used to think from the Center of each subatomic particle, but even in space's vacuum, within each cubic centimeter of space-time, there are innumerable zero-dimension points. It astounds me that photons will appear out of a vacuum, not from a light source, as if emerging from another dimension. Likewise, creation derives from God's Eternity.

BTW, I do not think that logic can tell us anything about GOD. Logic operates according to certain static principles which are dependent upon 'parts' and certain relationships between those parts. The parts may be abstractly mathematical, or representable in form, but the parts are separate variables. GOD, according to all Scholastic Aristotelian-based theolgy (Anselm, Aquinas) or any Mystical Platonist-based theology (Pseudo Dionysus, Plotinus) does not admit of 'parts.' There is no temporality nor spaciality with which to approach sequentially or analytically. GOD is not apprehended with logic.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: On God! [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4415248 - 07/17/05 05:11 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

I'm not saying that we can s fathom the nature of God through words, concepts, logic and the intellect. What I'm saying is that we can logically assume that its impossible for imperfection to arise out of perfection, this seems quite obvious.

Also, all schools of theistic thought say that it is better to know God. Why do they say this? Because we have problems, we have suffering, and through knowing the nature of God, we come to know the nature of ourselves and the universe, and in this knowledge we free ourselves from the darkness in ignorance of our own natural divine perfection. One cannot fathom perfection with the intellect, its impossible. Just as concepts are useless for understanding the non-conceptual.

You can hold as many eternilst views, and conceptual pet notions as you like, but this does not change how things are at all. I perfectly agree that our nature cannot be fathomed though conceptual attitudes.


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Edited by Sinbad (07/17/05 05:27 PM)


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Invisiblemoog
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Re: On God! [Re: Sinbad]
    #4415303 - 07/17/05 05:19 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

what is "perfect"? everything just is.


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: On God! [Re: moog]
    #4415311 - 07/17/05 05:20 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Is it?


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OfflineGomp
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Re: On God! [Re: Sinbad]
    #4415951 - 07/17/05 07:34 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

it is! (just?)

hehe

:smile:


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Disclaimer!?


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: On God! [Re: Sinbad]
    #4416010 - 07/17/05 07:49 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

I enjoyed your thoughts. I ate them


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InvisibleFucknuckle
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Re: On God! [Re: Sinbad]
    #4416078 - 07/17/05 08:13 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

I agree with your 2 points 100%. It takes work to build anything. To nuture something for real growth. Relationships need food and dedication.

A few things on others things said here.......

Yes God is perfect. God is perfect Love. Creation is perfect.

Yes we are made in his image etc...

But we have been givin the Choice to Love god as he loves us and that is the entire reason of creation. So God can have a true loving relationship with creation. God has the choice to put all that is in his garbage can. But God loves his creation. If we choose not to LOve God. God still loves us. That is perfect Love.

What would be the point in creating something the is programed to love you back ? That is not love.


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What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.


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Invisiblemoog
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Re: On God! [Re: Sinbad]
    #4416126 - 07/17/05 08:28 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

I have a a problem with your original post.

You seem to imply that spirituality is work. That we must work to be on some path. But I see it more as a natural progression. Working toward enlightenment is like working toward growing old. It just happens, and you can do things to aid the process, but it's going to happen naturally anyway. I don't see spirituality as a race to finish or some goal to attain.


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: On God! [Re: moog]
    #4416153 - 07/17/05 08:40 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Well I don't know where you are but in my country the vast majority of people seem to be ignorant or brainwashed and relatively simple minded. Spirituality requires one's mind to be unplugged from the television long enough to have a thought.


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InvisibleFucknuckle
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Re: On God! [Re: moog]
    #4416170 - 07/17/05 08:47 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

moog said:
I have a a problem with your original post.

You seem to imply that spirituality is work. That we must work to be on some path. But I see it more as a natural progression. Working toward enlightenment is like working toward growing old. It just happens, and you can do things to aid the process, but it's going to happen naturally anyway. I don't see spirituality as a race to finish or some goal to attain.





And this is why the road is narrow because lazy people paved it.


--------------------
What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.


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Invisiblemoog
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Re: On God! [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #4416196 - 07/17/05 08:56 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Well, if enlightenment is about learning, people are going to learn regardless of their lifestyle. I mean, people are going learn lessons from life no matter how they live. And of course when I write learning I'm talking about the nature of universe/god/existence, not facts from books. Is this assuming too much? I can see if one is dedicated they'll learn faster, but my point is it's not a race to finish, people. Just relax and enjoy life. If you want to be lazy go ahead. You have all the "time" in the world.


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InvisibleFucknuckle
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Re: On God! [Re: moog]
    #4416333 - 07/17/05 09:49 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Enlightenment is acceptance thru learning. To achive an enlighten state does not just happen. It is a result of work and humilty over mistakes to get there. Once there you are not there as you thought it would be. But the realization of the work it took still is with you. And there is never a end to the process for as soon as you think you made it your right back at the begining.

Of course at what level of enlightment is a person looking for. If the experiences of life are enough then it seems that can be concidered an enlightened state. Is a 90 year old person enilghtened thru the lessons of life ? Yes this person is enlightened about living.

But at what level is spirtual enlightenment accepted by others ? To the enlightened he could give two shits what others think. The enlightened don't think they are so. They think of other things

So it is all in the eye of who and to what end is the path ?

Got me


--------------------
What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: On God! [Re: moog]
    #4419558 - 07/18/05 05:03 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

moog said:
I have a a problem with your original post.

You seem to imply that spirituality is work. That we must work to be on some path. But I see it more as a natural progression. Working toward enlightenment is like working toward growing old. It just happens, and you can do things to aid the process, but it's going to happen naturally anyway. I don't see spirituality as a race to finish or some goal to attain.




No. Spirituality is the opposite of work. Our minds are so habituated to doing something, that its very difficult for us just to be present and observe ourselves. It may sound like a contradiction, but it actually requires a little bit of effort and application to cut through our habit patterns and conditioning to discover the effortless state of Liberation, Godhead, Grace, or whatever. If we go about spirituality, with the same attitude and mind activity that we do normally, then it becomes just another trip, something else to distract us from the true purpose of spiritual practice. Spirituality is said to be an "alternative" way of being, if we are still being the same way,, in distraction, without any difference, then what is alternative about that? Its just a repetition of the same habitual patterns that we have been creating and reinforcing through our actions the whole of our lives.

The view that spirituality requires no effort and just 'happens' falls under the same category, as mistake number 1, thinking that one does not have to apply any effort or method to cut through the ego, we entertain the ideas of "Everything is spirituality, everything is OK, and by the way, don't do any of those practices that want to see through me, i don't like them, and anyways your perfect as you are" . This kind of ego trip does not benefit us very much at all, in fact it completely undermines our motivation to engage in a path and do practice to really have benefit and realization.

We need to apply effort in the beginning, to become effortless, purposeful effort, transforms into effortlessness when we realize the nature of "who" is making the effort. The effort itself is in applying the various methods, of which include, letting go, forgiveness, loving compassion, mindfulness, awareness, and most of all perseverance in all of the above. Letting go cuts through our grasping, loving compassion cuts through our selfish disturbing emotions, mind-fullness cuts through our habits of laziness and distraction, and awareness See's things as they truly are. With all of these things, we can really make a huge difference in our lives.

So many people are into this "spirituality trip", this spiritual supermarket mentality. they try a bit of Tai-chi, and a bit of meditation, they take there spiritual Multi-vitamin, and then they feel a little better than before. This is not real spirituality. its good that people have a connection with spiritual paths and teachings, but unless they are applied with perserverance, dedication and lived out so that they overflow into every aspect of ones life, then its pointless, it becomes like just another trip to entertain and feed the ego's preoccupation to business.

The problem, is not with the actual search for happiness itself, but in the way one goes about this search. We must examine ones intention and attitude very carefully when engaging in spiritual practice, otherwise we may just end up wasting our lives and never realizing the truth of the meaning behind the profound concepts that are expressed in most spiritual traditions, instead they will only serve to further entrench and inflate the self-cherishing attitude which is the causes of suffering itself.


Edited by Sinbad (07/18/05 05:15 PM)


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: On God! [Re: Sinbad]
    #4419642 - 07/18/05 05:24 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

So many people are into this "spirituality trip", this spiritual supermarket mentality. they try a bit of Tai-chi, and a bit of meditation, they take there spiritual Multi-vitamin, and then they feel a little better than before. This is not real spirituality. its good that people have a connection with spiritual paths and teachings, but unless they are applied with perserverance, dedication and lived out so that they overflow into every aspect of ones life, then its pointless




:lol:  Who are you to say what is real spirituality?

It may be your path to "apply with perserverance," but we are not all on that path!

I say every little contact with divinity is spirituality, even if it is just five minutes per day sandwiched between power lunch and board meeting.  How do you know that this is pointless?

I find your arrogance a poor advertisement for your path.


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: On God! [Re: Veritas]
    #4419688 - 07/18/05 05:36 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Would'nt you agree that real spiriutality helps to increase ones awareness? If ones awareness and self-knowlege never increases, then how is one to know whether any real change is happening? Ignorance is blind. Im not advertising or promoting anything, im simply giving advice where is feel its needed.

If your spiriutality includes simply being present and observing the every changing, divine nature of each passing moment, then i would not consider this so pointless. If however you are entertaining ideas of "divinity" to keep your mind entertained, then how much different is this from your usual habit patterns of keeping your mind distracted and entertained? What exactly are you doing if you are'nt being present? Think about it.

"Do not accept anything by mere tradition. Do not accept anything just because it accords with your scriptures. Do not accept anything because it agrees with your opinions or because it is socially acceptable. Do not accept anything because it comes from the mouth of a respected person. Rather, observe closely and if it is to the benefit of all, accept and abide by it." [/b} - The Buddha, apparently.


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Edited by Sinbad (07/18/05 05:48 PM)


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Invisiblemoog
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Re: On God! [Re: Sinbad]
    #4419717 - 07/18/05 05:47 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

If it's my belief that everything is the Creator and thus every part of existence is 'spiritual', who are you or anyone to say this is 'wrong'?

"This is not real spirituality."

See, this is my point. What the hell is 'real' spirituality? We all have our own definitions of spirituality and god and love and a lot of other words. It's entirely subjective.

You also say that spirituality isn't work and then say that it requires effort. In my opinion, work and effort and synonymous, so which is it... ???

""Everything is spirituality, everything is OK, and by the way, don't do any of those practices that want to see through me, i don't like them, and anyways your perfect as you are" . This kind of ego trip does not benefit us very much at all"

How can you know whether someone else's opinion benefits them or not? Benefit how? Again, benefit is one of those words that's entirely subjective to one's goals or beliefs.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: On God! [Re: Sinbad]
    #4419848 - 07/18/05 06:25 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Yes, I agree that spirituality is about increasing awareness. I do not agree that awareness must be attained through perserverance and dedication to approved spiritual paths.

I did not say that "entertaining ideas of divinity" was spiritual...I said that contact with divinity was spiritual. Any means necessary and preferred to reach that contact point would thus be REAL spirituality.

If you reach that contact point through your path--EXCELLENT! This, however, does not mean that those who "dabble" are not nearing or reaching their own contact points!

If five minutes of meditation helps the "average" person become more centered and present and joyful in their busy, "non-spiritual" life...I say that is spirituality!

If that time spent out of the mad rush to progress creates enough cognitive dissonance to move Joe Average to change even ONE negative thing he is doing in his daily life...that is spiritual awareness!

Conversely, if one spends 24 hours per day going through the motions of performing spiritual actions, but does not establish a contact with divine energy...the actions are not spiritual.


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: On God! [Re: moog]
    #4419852 - 07/18/05 06:25 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

We could argue the meaning of words continuously on this forum, and it seems that this is what happens most for he time. Ultimately it is up to you to seek the meaning behind the concepts in which we use to communicate, i cant do that for you. But as i said earlier, I'm only giving advice, I'm not trying to debate anything, if you don't agree, and want debate the meaning of words, then maybe this post is'nt for you, or maybe you have just confused the finger pointing for the sky itself?

Just to clear things up a little, work means that one is striving to achieve some goal that one has set in mind. What i mean by effort is the application of a method that directly goes against this attitude, which cuts through this attitude of having to achieve something, of having to grasp at something. The effort is just a noticing of distraction and applying of whatever method is needed to cut through, this. Obviously this requires training in awareness and presence of mind.

Once again, I'm not suggesting that anything is wrong, all I'm saying is that the mistakes i listed in the original post is what i see most often within this kind of new age fashion in modern spirituality. Mistakes are made all the time, its whether we learn from them or not is of most importance.

The problem always lies in dualistic mind, liking anything pleasant and labeling that as beneficial, and rejecting anything that is seemingly painful, and labeling that as negative. This is what i mean by examining our way of searching for happiness. So many people limit themselves by getting entrapped even further in this kind of conceptual duality when approaching any kind of path or spirituality.

Maybe some of the points made in this thread have hit home with some people. Whether this is true, or not, or whether anyone is aware of it or not is of course totally subjective :lol:.


Edited by Sinbad (07/18/05 06:34 PM)


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: On God! [Re: Sinbad]
    #4420200 - 07/18/05 08:05 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Yo didn't you ever see the karate kid? This is a silly example, but remember that Miyagi made that little shit work his butt off and didn't teach him any moves for a long ass time?

You can't say that spirituality is the opposite of work. That smells like a fat excuse for laziness to me!!!


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