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InvisibleIcelander
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Why use psychedelics for Spiritual Growth?
    #4407091 - 07/15/05 08:40 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Does it help? My answerer is yes, from personal experience. Yet I know this doesn't look the same for everyone or that it even is true for everyone. Does that make it invalid?

The quote below sums up my reasons for using committed doses for the purpose of spiritual growth.

" Only to the extent that man/woman exposes themselves over and over again to annihilation, can that which is indestructible arise within. In this lies the dignity of daring. . . Only if we venture repeatedly through zones of annihilation can our contact with Divine Being, which is beyond annihilation, become firm and stable. The more a person learns wholeheartedly to confront the world which threatens them with isolation, the more are the depths of the Ground of Being revealed and the possibilities of new life and Becoming opened." :heart:

This quote can apply to many ways of working on ones spiritual growth. There are as many paths as there are persons IMO. Psychedelics is only one. A good one for some.  :mushroom2:

Any thoughts.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinesox24
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Re: Why use psychedelics for Spiritual Growth? [Re: Icelander]
    #4407101 - 07/15/05 09:04 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

I agree. It is a very strange world in that the very thing that seems to be an exceptional cure, a doorway to the divine, is also the very thing that some people swear is the devil and causes lifelong mental illness. I believe it is a good thing. Those who preach against it are so often those who have never tried it. And those who have tried it and preach against it perhaps did not use it correctly or in the proper setting.

I am troubled with the notion that everyone thinks they are right. On another message board recently, someone was essentialy posting soft core child pornography and saying it was a joke. I think there is a right and wrong. Sometimes psychedelics can warp people's senses out of control, so much that they don't believe in wrong or right. We all have to keep a sane head I think, even if it appears that the world is not sane. It only appears as you make it I think, or it appears as it's presented and planned for you. We are all tested, we all have to choose a side.

Keep well, Icelander. I know that I don't always agree with you, but you are a good person compared to who else is out there. Best wishes.


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: Why use psychedelics for Spiritual Growth? [Re: sox24]
    #4407113 - 07/15/05 09:18 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

"On another message board recently, someone was essentialy posting soft core child pornography"

been done in otd a few times, to tell you the truth.

Psychedelics at the very least, allow a person that their mind is very complicated and is also very malleable. We could have been anybody else.


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Invisibledorkus
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Re: Why use psychedelics for Spiritual Growth? [Re: Icelander]
    #4407903 - 07/15/05 03:42 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

We once made a thread called  'unlearning through entheogens'. Dromni explained it very precisely;
"psychedelics are social-deconditioning agents. They break down socially contructed barriers and ideas and force you to rebuild them. The people I trip with are like family to me because we've re-built our values together."

Jerry Garcia referred to it as "the cleansing of the pipes".  :heart::thumbup:

btw, ice. I received Steppenwolf today. Have been reading some pages. Damn, that seems to be a great book.  :heart: :smile:


Edited by dr_mandelbrot (07/15/05 03:52 PM)


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OfflineKalix
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Re: Why use psychedelics for Spiritual Growth? [Re: Icelander]
    #4407974 - 07/15/05 03:57 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
The quote[s] below sums up my reasons for using committed doses for the purpose of spiritual growth.



Any thoughts.




"Because they work better than meditation, kundalini yoga, and any other form of organized religion, or metaphysical approach I have tried" - Kalix

"You can sweep around the Ashram 'til hell freezes over, but it won't take you where 5 dry grams of psilocybin, by yourself, in a darkened room will take you.." - T. McKenna


--------------------


My Unitarian Jihad Name is: The Shotgun of Sweet Reason


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Why use psychedelics for Spiritual Growth? [Re: Icelander]
    #4408048 - 07/15/05 04:17 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

They are definitely not a requirement. As an enthusiast I feel that it contributes to my life.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Why use psychedelics for Spiritual Growth? [Re: dorkus]
    #4408134 - 07/15/05 04:45 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Jerry Garcia referred to it as "the cleansing of the pipes".

Wise words from the poster boy for self-destruction.  :rolleyes:


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Why use psychedelics for Spiritual Growth? [Re: Kalix]
    #4408156 - 07/15/05 04:49 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

"You can sweep around the Ashram 'til hell freezes over, but it won't take you where 5 dry grams of psilocybin, by yourself, in a darkened room will take you.." - T. McKenna

As McKenna never swept around the ashram for years, he cannot state this as a personal observation.

You can take five dry grams of psilocybin, by yourself, in a darkened room, but it will not take you where a Ferrari will take you." - Swami


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisibledorkus
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Re: Why use psychedelics for Spiritual Growth? [Re: Swami]
    #4408180 - 07/15/05 04:55 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Heheh. :grin:

But do you think psychedelics may contribute in breaking patterns? Or contribute to the insight of how much of or mindstuff being due to social conditioning?

Of course it is only a microscope. Change must come afterwards, but not all of us can cope with that easily (me having trouble now). A lack of discipline, and weak will contribute.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Why use psychedelics for Spiritual Growth? [Re: Swami]
    #4408183 - 07/15/05 04:55 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

What about the 5 grams while IN the Ferrari?


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Why use psychedelics for Spiritual Growth? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4408330 - 07/15/05 05:29 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

What about the 5 grams while IN the Ferrari?

Then you can go farther then where either one will take you alone. Just ask Hunter Thompson (via a medium)...


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineKalix
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Re: Why use psychedelics for Spiritual Growth? [Re: Swami]
    #4408354 - 07/15/05 05:35 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
"You can sweep around the Ashram 'til hell freezes over, but it won't take you where 5 dry grams of psilocybin, by yourself, in a darkened room will take you.." - T. McKenna

As McKenna never swept around the ashram for years, he cannot state this as a personal observation.

You can take five dry grams of psilocybin, by yourself, in a darkened room, but it will not take you where a Ferrari will take you." - Swami




True, he only swept around the Ashram for 6 months..
http://www.a-toi.com/xvulotus.html


--------------------


My Unitarian Jihad Name is: The Shotgun of Sweet Reason


Edited by Kalix (07/15/05 05:46 PM)


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Why use psychedelics for Spiritual Growth? [Re: dorkus]
    #4408357 - 07/15/05 05:36 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

But do you think psychedelics may contribute in breaking patterns?
I don't see it, but perhaps you can share your personal experience.

Or contribute to the insight of how much of or mindstuff being due to social conditioning?
During all of my years here, I have not witnessed and great degree of freedom from social conditioning. On the contrary, I see many people stuck on all sorts of blocks that seem glaringly obvious to this poster.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Why use psychedelics for Spiritual Growth? [Re: Kalix]
    #4408372 - 07/15/05 05:40 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

True, he only swept around the Ashram for 6 months..

Yes, he gave up right before he fully surrendered and achieved samadhi.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisibledorkus
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Re: Why use psychedelics for Spiritual Growth? [Re: Swami]
    #4408558 - 07/15/05 06:27 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Well, for starters I only caught glimpses of the elves before psychedelics, now we have grown into close friends and share funny stories.

Now my apartment is teeming with life. The flies sing songs for me, and in my head I have ALOT of company. Most of them are hostile, but better to have bad company than no company, eh?

Oh, and also I have to win arguments now, earlier I just backed the fuck out.


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InvisibleKrishna
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Re: Why use psychedelics for Spiritual Growth? [Re: dorkus]
    #4408585 - 07/15/05 06:35 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

i've wondered this myself as well - i've had many 'spiritual' insights (both with and without the use of psychedelics) and have often wondered if the latter is necessary, or even useful. i discussed it with a mentor/teacher/friend who had been a monk for some 30 years (before this time, he had been an acid-head/hippy/bum for quite some time), and found his response to shed some light on the subject,

"if we say the spiritual journey is akin to climbing a mountain - a long, treacherous, and tiring climb that seems without end - psychedelics can, for a brief moment, throw you to the top of that mountain. you can look around, look down the cliff-side, and realize that this mountain isn't infinite, but there is indeed a top. you can roll around, and bask in the light that is that top. and then, some 6 hours later, you find yourself back near the bottom, looking up towards an invisible summit. but now you know that top exists, and have more energy to continue your climb." (paraphrased by me, i don't remember his exact words :wink: )

i had many a discussion with him about this sort of topic, and he said (also read this in, for example, the writings of Baba Ram Dass aka Dr Richard Alpert) that it is very easy to mistake this brief foray at the 'top' with the top itself - to continue dosing all the time, or to become frustrated when 'real' spiritual practice doesn't get you where 2 tabs of good LSD do. however, if one can look beyond this - not try to meditate yourself into the same state that LSD gets you - but instead use the LSD experience as 'soul-energy' to fuel the rest of your spiritual quest, then you'll find yourself on the 'right' path.


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Invisibledorkus
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Re: Why use psychedelics for Spiritual Growth? [Re: Swami]
    #4408664 - 07/15/05 06:59 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

sorry that was a stupid post. :grin:

I think I have become myself more. I used to act real tough and tried to impress everybody. I was even violent, getting into fist-fights when going out, piss-drunk outta my mind.

Now I have gotten in touch with my more feminine and childlike sides, I feel more like my real self, like I used to be before. When I visit my parents I am more helpful, and I've discovered a deep respect and love for them that I'd sort of forgotten.

Also I used to put in hard hours of extra labour at the factory (where I worked my last day today) just to please my boss, thinking I was helping him. I realized that I wasn't really helping myself this way, and that I should take control, and learn to say no.

Ummm, I have new friends. I have perceived that hurting others is like hurting myself, so I've started paying attention to what I say, and stopped putting others down. I never say things about people to others that I would not tell them to their face.

Just alot of small stuff, but important non the less.

I'll fill in if anything comes to mind, am leaving for a vacation in Prague in two hours though. :grin: :thumbup: Hoping to live through it. :lol:


edit:

Also something has happened to my eyesight or response to sight. Nature has become clearer, this is not placebo. I walk around marvelling at life, often exploding with inner joy as I see wonderful beauty popping straight up from the ground. I easily get lost in things, losing myself in the moment. It really doesn't help me coping with social situations and stuff like that, I've gotten worse handling it, but it doesn't seem to matter. I like to be by myself now, four years ago I was never alone. Immersion in processes has become a habit, maybe it is chemical unbalance, maybe it is me regressing back to childhood, don't know, but I think it is a good thing.

Also I am going through a process of coming to terms with death, as I had an insight of the devastating meaning of eternity. big difference between the thought and the insight IMO. "The best time to prepare for dying is now." This process might benefit me when I grow older, or if I die early.


Edited by dr_mandelbrot (07/15/05 07:25 PM)


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Invisiblespudamore
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Re: Why use psychedelics for Spiritual Growth? [Re: dorkus]
    #4408889 - 07/15/05 07:55 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

dr_mandelbrot said:
But do you think psychedelics may contribute in breaking patterns?




nope i don't think so, they may show you stuff about your own patterns but its the action you take thats going to let you break free from patterns.


--------------------
suicide a permanent solution to a temporary problem


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Invisibledorkus
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Re: Why use psychedelics for Spiritual Growth? [Re: spudamore]
    #4408941 - 07/15/05 08:07 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Yes, I agree.


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OfflinePsiloman
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Re: Why use psychedelics for Spiritual Growth? [Re: dorkus]
    #4409162 - 07/15/05 09:11 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

What is also of interest is to see the regiment used by people who believe that psychedelics= spiritual growth.

It could be a crutch for some people or a misunderstanding.I had a person on my forum starting telling me of how his use of psychedelics as a "quest for spiritual and psychological growth" destroyed him and when i asked him about how he pursued that his answer was simple : For months unend he gulped down almost daily whatever he could find from big quantities of MDMA to LSD.His preperation? He read a book by McKenna,a book by Leary and all of a sudden he jumped on that boat.when i pointed out that this might have been a good excuse for abuse and asked him how the hell would the regiment he followed would give him what he hoped for ,i was attacked ad hominem sidetracking the discussion and taking it to the stage of "lets compare achievments in academia and life you druggie forum administrator" which i found it quite funny!

For me psychedelics are not a pill for enlightment or growth,as aspirin is a pill for fever.No,it doesnt work that way,thats not something like an innate quality the posses.They could be used in a psychoterapeutic way.They COULD be used like that but it requires a lot of work on the "users" part. So you stuble across some personal revelations during a trip right? Have you all of a sudden advanced "spiritually" or psychologically? No.Would redosing help ? Nope. Better work on this personal revelation and leave dosing for others while you work on it.

SO when speaking about "psychedelics and X" (where X put creativity,spirituality ,enlightment whatever else you consider of "higher brain function") it would be very interest to give the regiments (both drug wise and non drug wise) that could lead there....

I think thats what Swami is capitilising on and challenging : Self apointed messiahs that have mistaken abuse and voracious appetite for psychedelics for growth and...paranormality!


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