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OfflineSneezingPenis
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This is ridiculous...
    #4407009 - 07/15/05 07:08 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

This link below, is a very short question with a very short answer, please read, because it bothers the hell out of me.

http://www.mhsanctuary.com/therapist/849.htm

The question doesnt really bother me nearly as much as the response does...
Quote:

No one knows what meds work with what kids. In addition, no one is really
sure why certain meds work at all. If Adderol is not working for your
child, change the med. It's not an either/or...it's a bit of a crap shoot.




gotta love medical doctors and crap shoots when it comes to giving your kids drugs!!
Adderall is an amphetamine and has some really great side effects like :
Potentially serious Adderall side effects include:
- allergic reactions (closing of the throat; difficulty breathing; swelling of the lips, tongue, or face; hives)
- hallucinations, abnormal or confused behavior
- irregular heartbeat and/or very high blood pressure (accompanied by a severe headache and blurred vision)

Less serious but possible Adderall Side Effects:
Restlessness or tremor; anxiety or nervousness; insomnia; headache or dizziness; dryness of the mouth or an unpleasant taste in the mouth; impotence or changes in sex drive; diarrhea or constipation.*

Quote:

According to the Los Angeles Times, the California Association of Physicians and Surgeons, and even the Center for Diseases Control?s own admission, well over 100,000 people in this country die each year from ?properly? administered prescription drugs. This is absolutely shocking! One study has shown that more than two million American hospitalized patients suffered a serious adverse drug reaction (ADR) within a 12-month period and of these, over 100,000 died as a result. Likewise, roughly 36,000,000 adverse drug reactions are reported annually, resulting in more than 33.6-million admissions or hospitalizations all from drugs that the FDA has pronounced ?safe effective.? Sources for these statistics can be found at: http://www.cancure.org/medical_errors.htm. The media is not doing a very good job of reporting this ADR crisis. Instead, we hear the constant media drumbeat about the dangers of firearms, which are currently politically incorrect yet represent a miniscule fraction of the deaths in this country. Doctors who want to politicize gun deaths should clean up their own glass houses first. The real crisis is the failing health care or more accurately described as the sick care system. There are numerous reasons for this crisis. One reason is that conflicts of interest represent a very real problem for public servants and those entities which have relationships with various government agencies. Numerous researchers have reported that the FDA receives money from the very entities it is suppose to be regulating and one consequence of this is the suppression rather than advancement of disease cures. Consider the following: ?According to a USA Today study, more than half of the experts hired to advise the government on the safety and effectiveness of medicine have financial relationships with the pharmaceutical companies that will be helped or hurt by their decisions. These experts are hired to advise the Food and Drug Administration on which medicines should be approved for sale, what the warning labels should say and how studies of drugs should be designed. The experts are supposed to be independent, but USA TODAY found that 54% of the time, they have a direct financial interest in the drug or topic they are asked to evaluate. These conflicts include helping a pharmaceutical company develop a medicine, then serving on an FDA advisory committee that judges the drug. The conflicts typically include stock ownership, consulting fees or research grants. Federal law generally prohibits the FDA from using experts with financial conflicts of interest, but according to the article, the FDA has waived the restriction more than 800 times since 1998.? (1) The corruption of undisclosed financial ties to the pharmaceutical companies by supposedly unbiased researchers along with the staggering cost involved in bringing new drugs to market, which conveniently eliminates competition from all but the cartel heavyweights has been sparingly reported in the mainstream press. Consider one exception to this silence: In the book a ?World Without Cancer? by G. Edward Griffin. Griffin describes the politics of cancer therapy, in which he blows the lid off the all powerful international chemical and drug cartel that has dominated the direction of health care since early in the Twentieth Century in the United States. Griffin argues that not only has the Rockefeller-Farben cartel (2) been instrumental in fostering chemical based drug treatment as the basis for health care and they have been the dominant adversary against safer non-drug treatments. If Griffin is correct, who is the FDA protecting and serving? Clearly, not the consumer! It should be noted that pharmaceutical drugs have absolutely no nutritional value, and at best offer temporary relief of symptoms while doing nothing to address the root causes of disease. Additionally, pharmaceutical drugs should be used very carefully because of the toxicity factor also known as the LD50 rating. LD stands for "Lethal Dose" and LD50 is the amount of a drug, given, which causes the death of 50% of a group of laboratory test animals. Also, it is well known that drugs can damage the liver and kidneys. Do not forget, as sited above, adverse drug reactions are responsible for over 100,000 deaths each year plus the pain and suffering for those lucky enough to survive an ADR. The way to good health does not necessarily include the ingestion of toxic chemicals. Likewise, the reason for disease is not that we are deficient or lacking in deadly debilitating pharmaceutical drugs. In many cases, disease is the result of nutritional deficiencies and the resulting weakening of the immune system. The recent ongoing attempt to abolish and subvert the Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act (DSHEA) of 1994, which brought a measure of freedom back to consumers, in regards to their personal choices in the area of nutritional supplementation, should raise the ire of everyone who is concerned about their own health. This is an example of the pharmaceutical cartel and their political cronies within and along side of the FDA at work. Never forget, America is about freedom, especially freedom to make informed decisions concerning our own health care information, services we choose, our choice of treatments and products that we believe to be beneficial for our own health and wellbeing. See the National Health Freedom coalition web site (3) 36,000,000 adverse drug reactions and 100,000 deaths annually is a crisis!**




* http://www.prescriptions1.net/adderall/
** http://www.drugtestspot.com/links/adderall-drug-test.html


It is time to stop the passive all-to-common "i agree that some drugs are overprescribed" comment and realize that we are putting children on amphetamines. This isnt some joke. Seriously, sit back and say that outloud to yourself.. "we are allowing children to be prescribed amphetamines". Why is it that even obese children cannot be put on prescription weight-loss pills (also amphetamines) , yet can be put on Adderral?


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OfflineTwister
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Re: This is ridiculous... [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4407106 - 07/15/05 09:12 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

The blatant corruption in government that nobody seems to care about or even notice makes me sick. I hate that I was born in a society/time in which people value a completely worthless piece of paper, and the power and privlege that comes with it, over anything. The worst thing is that the only people that can really do anything about this pharmaceutical corruption are the ones that would be hurt most by any drastic changes in the system.


Edited by Twister351 (07/15/05 09:15 AM)


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: This is ridiculous... [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4407200 - 07/15/05 10:25 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)


gotta love medical doctors and crap shoots when it comes to giving your kids drugs!!


Well, if you take into consideration that all of our bodies and minds are different, then it seems quite normal that some things are more effective than others. As far as whether or not it is very effective, it is a bit of a crap shoot, this does not mean that it is very dangerous, though.


It is time to stop the passive all-to-common "i agree that some drugs are overprescribed" comment and realize that we are putting children on amphetamines. This isnt some joke. Seriously, sit back and say that outloud to yourself.. "we are allowing children to be prescribed amphetamines".


I think it's about time we put a stop to allowing people who are not doctors, and whose only medical knowledge comes from reactionary scare articles, determining what is and isn't safe to use.

Yes, high doses of amphetamines can have some nasty side effects... of course, confusing potential side effects, with what is normally happening is easy to do when the only information you have is from organizations that are run by frightened housewives with no medical education.

Are kids who are on Adderall experiencing hallucinations, heart attacks, and allergic reactions in high numbers?

No! It's simply not happening. Just because a drug has the potential to cause problems doesn't mean that it is causing these problems left and right. We don't base our laws on what might happen, we base them on the reality, on what is actually happening.

Yes, if we tie kids down and shove them full of high doses of amphetamines, they are at risk of psychotic episodes. If we give them small doses, then the risk is virtually non-existant except in the imaginations of reactionaries.

It's easy to take the numbers that are out there, and to try and make them look like they are horrifying evidence of corrupt pharmaceutical companies when you have no inside knowledge. The only information you expose yourself to is from groups who are opposed to pharmaceuticals and will do anything they can to paint them in a negative light.

Of course, simply looking at the numbers doesn't tell you how often an exchange like this occurs: "If you leave your condition untreated, you will almost certainly die within the month, you can go on this drug, which has risky side effects, but it can likely allow you to live much longer"

Out of the 100,000 deaths from pharmaceutical drugs, how many of them are from Adderall or other stimulants?

How many of them are from drugs that are risky because they are only used in extreme situations where the patient has a much higher chance of dying with out them? Did you even consider that? Did you bother to look into this possibility, or did you ignore it in favor of presenting the data to backup your anti-drug beliefs?

What I find ridiculous is that people decide to attack drug companies based only on information that comes from fringe groups. They don't even consider that maybe you should speak to a physician and get the other side of the story. People want to see a conspiracy, so they go out looking for one, and ignore any information that opposes what they've have decided to be true.

Now THAT is ridiculous.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: This is ridiculous... [Re: Phluck]
    #4407259 - 07/15/05 10:59 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

You make some good points pluck.  I can see both sides of this issue.

My own opinion is that if we were to address lifestyle issues in these children. That means emotional problems at home and school, how they eat and exercise, and socially interact. Maybe we wouldn't have so many kids in need of medications.

What do you think? :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinemikeytwice
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Re: This is ridiculous... [Re: Icelander]
    #4407295 - 07/15/05 11:22 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

I wouldn't worry so much about death if I got adderall perscribed to my kid. What I'd worry about more is the paradox of getting some crazy kid who can't focus all tweaked out so he can focus on annoying the other kids in class - which is exactly what happened with all the kids I knew who were fucked up on ADD meds when I was in school.

Phluck, you're assuming that because its popular for doctors to prescribe such drugs that its ok just becuase they're doctors and hence the authority. But there are a few things to mention. First, pediatricians don't know a god damn motherfucking thing. I have two friends in med school right now, and both would agree that the only people you can trust to know a damn about anything are specialists.

I disagree with the frenzy over the stated overt dangers of adderall, because as you said, these symptoms are not occurring. But that doesn't mean that doctors and parents are right in taking the easy way out and prescribing this shit to pretty much anyone who asks.

"We don't base our laws on what might happen, we base them on the reality, on what is actually happening."
Do you trust the government that much? It's not as if there are no irrational laws on the books, and I don't even need to go off on that one...

Doctors can be wrong and medications can be overprescribed. You can find plenty of PhDs and MDs - who aren't fringe doctors - that see overprescription of ADD meds as a problem. Doctors are pushed to prescribe meds, and this is no secret - my cosin's friend works for Pfizer, and when I was on the job search she explained her job to me. It consisted of going to doctors and "informing" them about medications and then offering them free vacations this place and that - though it seems innocuous, it amounts to casually and legally bribing doctors to prescribe your meds. Before paxil hit the market, there were fewer than 1,000 cases of "social anxiety disorder" in the US. This figure skyrocketed with the release of Paxil, and though it could be the case that SAD existed but went undiagnosed, it's not entirely likely - Social Anxiety Disorder is by no means a discrete condition, and just aobut everyone experiences it at one time or another... and is it a bad thing, anyways?

The demand and readiness to prescribe these meds will decline in time if serious long-term side effects become apparent, which might be kind of unlikely - I imagine the side-effects, if any, may be mild cognitive anomolies or emotional patterns, and it can be hard to determine what exactly these are. But one can stand in opposition to the common prescription of these drugs in any case without being labeled "fringe." Again: tweakers are annoying, tweaker kids are annoying, and parents perhaps shouldn't be so fucking lazy. ADD is an honest condition but it's incidence is probably much lower than its diagnosis, and somewhere or other we have to draw the line, though I don't think that this should be done via legislation.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: This is ridiculous... [Re: Icelander]
    #4407323 - 07/15/05 11:33 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)


My own opinion is that if we were to address lifestyle issues in these children. That means emotional problems at home and school, how they eat and exercise, and socially interact. Maybe we wouldn't have so many kids in need of medications.


Well, this is true, and I do think that Ritalin and various ADHD drugs are overprescribed. However, overprescribed doesn't mean that every time it is prescribed it isn't needed. The issue isn't completely black and white.

Intervening in the life of every child isn't really possible. There are lots of bad parents out there who are never going to raise their kids properly, and no matter how many programs we fund to educate people on excercise and nutrition (and the government does spend quite a bit trying to do this, as well as it being taught in schools) we'll never be able to completely change how everyone thinks.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: This is ridiculous... [Re: mikeytwice]
    #4407335 - 07/15/05 11:42 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

What I'd worry about more is the paradox of getting some crazy kid who can't focus all tweaked out so he can focus on annoying the other kids in class - which is exactly what happened with all the kids I knew who were fucked up on ADD meds when I was in school.

Actually, the ADHD drugs tend to make kids focus and stop being hyper. Perhaps it was the fact that these kids were suffering from ADHD that made them hyper, and not the drugs themselves. Imagine what they would have been like WITHOUT ADHD drugs.

Many people consider drugs like Ritalin to be a godsend because it means that their child is no longer so hyper that they can't control them. While it seems like its kind of a paradox that a stimulant would calm someone down, that's precisely how ADHD drugs work. The child may have more energy, but his attention gets focussed on one thing, instead of being extremely hyper.

The ADHD kids you know may not have been having strong results from their drugs, because what you're describing is the exact opposite of what these drugs do when they are effective.


Phluck, you're assuming that because its popular for doctors to prescribe such drugs that its ok just becuase they're doctors and hence the authority. But there are a few things to mention. First, pediatricians don't know a god damn motherfucking thing. I have two friends in med school right now, and both would agree that the only people you can trust to know a damn about anything are specialists.


I never said that. I never said anything about pediatricians or specialists, and I am fully aware that it's often the case that doctors don't have much knowledge in specific areas. I have first hand experience with that. I don't think pediatricians usually prescribe ritalin or adderall anyways, that would usually be a psychiatrists that specializes in chilren. That's who briefly prescribed dexadrine to me when I was 12.

I do agree completely that ADD and ADHD drugs are overprescribed. I've said so here, and in other threads in the past about this issue. You're assuming that I think doctors are infalliable, and I don't think I've said anything whatsoever to indicate this. I'm simply saying that people who study these things for a living are more likely to know what they're talking about than people who are simply reactionaries, angrily ranting about an entire industry they have no direct involvement with, and who only get information from sources that validate what they already believe instead of trying to seek out the entire story.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Invisibleroby000
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Re: This is ridiculous... [Re: Phluck]
    #4407371 - 07/15/05 11:59 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

i thought add was a myth. i know that some kids do have it but it was such a small percentage. then parents were like "oh my 5 year old is playing and laughing all the time i need something to slow him down" and thus... every 5 year old had add....
i dunno... all i do know is my kid aint gettin no drugs. the cure for overactive kids is swimming pools, the spend all day in it and are exhausted by the end of the day and bam pass out just in time for the mr and mrs to have a peaceful eavning.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: This is ridiculous... [Re: roby000]
    #4407415 - 07/15/05 12:31 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Some people think ADD is a myth, but it simply isn't true. There are a select number of kids who are so hyperactive that nobody can control them. It's easy to say "Oh, I'll never give my kids drugs, I know how to control them..." when you aren't actually in the situation of having to deal with an ADHD kid. Lots of the kids who are prescribed these drugs don't really have ADHD, but when you meet one of these kids for real, you'll see what I'm talking about. They take it to a whole new level of insanity.

Wearing them out isn't going to help, when they're tired, they're cranky and hyper, which is even worse.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: This is ridiculous... [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4407658 - 07/15/05 02:26 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

It is amazing to me that drugs are prescribed before the issue of diet is addressed. In many of these cases the kids are gorging on a diet of sweets, candies, pastries, soda pop, ice cream, chips, fries, and sugared breakfast cereal.

Every cell in the body, including the brain, is built from food. If you build a house using shoddy construction materials it is any wonder that it becomes an unsavory place to live?

Whenever doctors treat someone they should address any immediate concerns and the very next thing should be to query the patient on their diet. If the condition responds to dietary changes nothing else should be done! Especially giving powerful mind altering drugs to kids whose brains are still forming.

Why is diet almost never addressed? There is no payoff for the medical profession if that kid gets well. They want him and his parent's money circulating in their system for life. They will offer a drug more often than not as a solution. Doctors are the biggest drug pushers in existence. And it's all legal. In the public mind legal= moral. Always remember everything Hitler did in Germany was legal.

Good post, psilocyberin.


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“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: This is ridiculous... [Re: zorbman]
    #4408005 - 07/15/05 04:05 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

look, ill even go back and strike the symptoms, and even the figure of deaths. That isnt my point. Nor was I attempting to say that 100,000 deaths every year are caused by Adderal.

ignore all that if you want to.

but, amphetamines....given to kids... come on, how in the fuck can you possibly justify that in anyway? I cant even find a reference to an age limit that children can be put on Adderal. Amphetamines and methamphetamines are a shedule 2 drug in the US, this is in the same category as phenobarbital, opium, morphine, methadone, cocaine, PCP, nembutal, and a huge list of other ridiculously powerful drugs.
It doesnt matter if you are giving a child a very low dosage. How many years would i be in jail for giving a 5th grader cocaine? there is very little chemical variation between the two.

This isnt some fringe group digging up facts, and ignoring others. I would love to see some positive facts and statistics from similar credible sources that I have posted. Im not arguing that Adderal doesnt work for its intended purpose. Im sure it does just that, but at what cost? would you give your child cocaine every morning just so it could read a book? Dont you think that there are alternative ways of dealing with this? Do you think that we have exhausted all possible venues of dealing with this?
No, not at all... most parents let the television babysit their kid as they gorge themselves on sugar and hardly any nutritional foods. Go read some of the "ask a therapist" websites where moms and fathers have written things like "is 4 years old too young to put my daughter on adderol?". Most parents are jumping at the chance to drug their children into submission, especially when it has the big american stamp of moral approval from the "doctors".

Also, being a kid is all about learning your boundaries and being uncontrolable, that is what kids do, this is why they are kids, and not considered adults with jobs and bills. They are supposed to be carefree, wild, unabashed and inquisitive, not some drugged out chill bookworm. Being a kid is all about talking out of turn, interrupting people, asking embarrasing questions, and being an all around misfit.
These parents are like people that got a puppy, and it was so cute, and fun to play with for a little while, until it started shitting in their closet, eating their shoes and barking; but that is what puppies do! but by that point, they want a well adjusted , fully trained and obediant adult dog.
This is what people are doing to their children, drugging them into premature adulthood, taking away all their childness. It is a selfish and malicious thing to do, and I say "eat my ass with a spoon" to any parent who willingly puts their child on amphetamines.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: This is ridiculous... [Re: zorbman]
    #4408152 - 07/15/05 04:49 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)


It is amazing to me that drugs are prescribed before the issue of diet is addressed. In many of these cases the kids are gorging on a diet of sweets, candies, pastries, soda pop, ice cream, chips, fries, and sugared breakfast cereal.


http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/children/9911/22/diet.sugar.myth.kids.wmd/
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002426.htm

Or what, did the doctors just make this up too so that they could sell their drugs?


Every cell in the body, including the brain, is built from food. If you build a house using shoddy construction materials it is any wonder that it becomes an unsavory place to live?


Well, it's strange how people think that a food that is unhealthy for one reason would cause completely unrelated problems. People discover that greasy fried foods can lead to various cardiovasclar problems... the general public is like "greasy foods are bad for you, it would take a bad thing to cause mental problems, therefore greasy foods cause mental problems".

Foods that are unhealthy are unhealthy for specific reasons. They are not the cause of every single problem you can encounter.

And as for diet never being addressed, I have no idea what you're talking about. When it comes to the things that diet is actually important about, it is constantly discussed. In school they makes efforts to teach kids to eat well, on childrens TV shows, magazine and newspaper articles are always talking about healthy eating, any doctor will recommend healthy eating, there are hundreds of books out there on nutrition.

What else do you expect them to do, break into kids houses, strap them down, and shove carrots down their throats?

Doctors don't try and push a drug for every single problem... I've been to doctors many, many times, for a wide variety of issues, and pretty pretty much the only times they've given me a drug to address the issue was antibiotics a couple times and some cream for a rash.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: This is ridiculous... [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4408230 - 07/15/05 05:04 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)


look, ill even go back and strike the symptoms, and even the figure of deaths.


What symptoms? You listed off the potential side effects, but you didn't provide any evidence that they happen often enough to actually be an issue. Lots of drugs have potential side effects that might seem quite shocking, but many of these side effects occur so rarely that they aren't a real issue. If peanut butter were a drug, they'd probably list "swelling of the throat, death" amongst the side effects.


but, amphetamines....given to kids... come on, how in the fuck can you possibly justify that in anyway?


Because it's not really a problem. You have no data or anything to justify the idea that it's causing a huge problem. You're basing your objection on the idea that it SOUNDS bad, not that there are actually any problems.

Your argument isn't "look at all of these problems that this is actually causing", you're just saying "C'MON! IT'S AMPHETAMINE! THAT MEANS IT'S BAD!"

... and why is it bad? Because it's ampetamine!

How many years would i be in jail for giving a 5th grader cocaine? there is very little chemical variation between the two.



Actually, they aren't really chemically similar at all.

http://www.erowid.org/plants/coca/coca_chemistry.shtml
http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/amphetamines/amphetamines_chemistry.shtml

Im not arguing that Adderal doesnt work for its intended purpose. Im sure it does just that, but at what cost?

Exactly. What cost? You tell me. Where is the evidence that Adderall is actually causing serious problems? Not evidence that it can cause problems in certain people if abused... evidence that it IS causing problems.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflineProsgeopax
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Re: This is ridiculous... [Re: Phluck]
    #4409335 - 07/15/05 10:04 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Most doctors are not trained in the proper diagnoses of ADD or ADHD. A psychological professional (a psychiatrist or psychologist) knows more and is much better qualified to diagnose these conditions than the average MD.

Something else: The average MD is given very little training in nutrition and holistic approaches to health are given short shrift. An MD's training views the body as being comprised primarily of distinctive and functionally separate parts, it emphasizes treating disease symptoms through drugs and surgery. ODs (osteopaths - the only other kinds of Dr.s licensed to practice medicine) on the other hand are trained from a different perspective, they take a "whole person" approach emphasizing treatment of health and disease prevention as well as cure.


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Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: This is ridiculous... [Re: Phluck]
    #4409563 - 07/15/05 11:03 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

And as for diet never being addressed, I have no idea what you're talking about. When it comes to the things that diet is actually important about, it is constantly discussed. In school they makes efforts to teach kids..

Where in my post did I refer to diet outside the context of doctors? Doctors don't give proper attention to the role of diet in medical conditions and if you're going to be honest you'll admit that. The typical doctor receives very little course work in nutrition during medical school and that is reflected in their scant knowledge of the subject and the impact diet has on their patients' health.

In all my years of visits to doctors, the issue of nutrition has never been raised. Not once! And I don't think I'm alone in this. Incredible. When I was a child my dentist even offered me a lollipop before he went to work on my cavities!

Well, it's strange how people think that a food that is unhealthy for one reason would cause completely unrelated problems.

As Prosgeopax pointed out, it is easy to fall into the trap of thinking of the body as individual parts rather than an interelated system. We live in the age of specialization. Our knowledge of the human anatomy is so vast that no single person can be great in every area of medicine. Therefore we have specialists. Unfortunately, due largely to this training, they often fail to see how each part of the body is affected by every other part of the body.


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch


Edited by zorbman (07/16/05 10:17 PM)


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: This is ridiculous... [Re: Phluck]
    #4410854 - 07/16/05 06:25 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Phluck said:

look, ill even go back and strike the symptoms, and even the figure of deaths.


What symptoms? You listed off the potential side effects, but you didn't provide any evidence that they happen often enough to actually be an issue. Lots of drugs have potential side effects that might seem quite shocking, but many of these side effects occur so rarely that they aren't a real issue. If peanut butter were a drug, they'd probably list "swelling of the throat, death" amongst the side effects.




I have the same problem w/ being cold all the time. Everyone's always telling me if I gained weight I wouldn't be so cold (I'm on the skinny-side too, 5'6" 102lbs), but I highly doubt that's all there is to it. For some reason, I just don't have very good circulation & I've noticed this even more since I began taking Adderall (an amphetamine drug used to treat ADHD) a year ago. It constricts your blood vessels, which naturally slows down circulation. My mom has the same prob (w/ being cold).
here is the link  http://www.drugtalk.com/adderall/drugthread.php/t-273039.html

Unfortunately, this sounds all too familiar to me :frown: I am 21/F, 5'6" and only 105 lbs. I am always FREEZING!!! I honestly think part of it does have to do with body fat (or a lack of in our case). But I also have kind of low blood pressure & I smoke (quitting January 1st) so obviously my circulation isn't what it could be. Do you know where your blood pressure normally hangs around? Because if it's low, it can definitely be causing you to feel cold. Feeling cold doesn't have to mean there's anything medically wrong with you though. All the women in my family are the same way, but are healthy otherwise. Do you smoke? Also, are you on any meds? That could also be a factor. I take Adderall (amphetamine) for ADHD and since I started the drug I've been feeling colder than normal. Well, good luck trying to stay warm and remember you are NOT ALONE!!!

[url=http://www.drugtalk.com/adderall/drugthread.php/t-236199.html
]http://www.drugtalk.com/adderall/drugthread.php/t-236199.html[/url][/url]


I have been on Strattera for four weeks now. For the first week, they practically put me to sleep. My doctor kept me on the childrens dose for two weeks because of this. Those side effects did stop after about a week. However, the side effect that has not gone away is the constant pressure in my bladder. I constantly feel like I have to urinate, but cannot. As far as good effects. Nothing. I still have all my ADD related problems. I am scheduled to see my doc again in about a week. He already told me if I feel no better at that point, he will switch me to Adderall. His concern is that Adderrall and Ritalin cannot be taken for the rest of your life becuase they are amphetamines. However, you can safely take Stratterra, as far as we know, for the rest of your life. Give it a try. It does work for some people. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem like I am one of those people.
http://www.drugtalk.com/adderall/drugthread.php/t-302820.html
He basically asks me a couple of questions - all of which I answered "high" for and, best on what else I had told him, said well it sounds like ADHD and he prescribes Adderall 20MG. So I take it and the first day or two I felt good - really attentive and aware. But as the days have worn on, I feel more hyper than anything. And, ironically, I feel like I have more ADHD than ever before. I am figidy, scatterbrained - can't remember a thought or two out in work, find myself not finishing tasks I am assigned to.
http://www.drugtalk.com/adderall/drugthread.php/t-301907.html

I have been on Adderall for about 7 months and recently stopped. I know what you are experiencing and it know doubt sucks! My withdrawls seemed to last about a week. I had major, big time depression. I was sooo tired and had no motivation to do anything! I had some left over Ripped Fuel that I started to take just to pull me through, it definitely helped. It would have been better to taper off the Adderall instead of quiting cold turkey. Tapering helps with having real bad withdrawals. In my case I really didn't have a choice. I will never do that again. I plan to restart my meds in the next couple of weeks. Also, I am eating like crazy! I am not overweight but I hate putting on extra pounds.I have already gained about 4 pounds since I have been off Adderall. I am not tall, so 4lbs on a petite person feels like a lot.
http://www.drugtalk.com/adderall/drugthread.php/t-301886.html

Is that enough for you? I just got tired of copying and pasting the miltitude of people complaining about Adderall and its side effects on an ADD forum. This isnt some fringe group. This isnt some ploy or ruse, this is actual people with actual symptoms, and many of these people arent alone, they have very many other people who understand the symptoms they are having, because they have them as well.


Quote:

but, amphetamines....given to kids... come on, how in the fuck can you possibly justify that in anyway?


Because it's not really a problem. You have no data or anything to justify the idea that it's causing a huge problem. You're basing your objection on the idea that it SOUNDS bad, not that there are actually any problems.




nope, no problems at all right? These arent new side effects, these arent something unique to Adderall, these are consistent problems and side effects of any amphetamine. You try to make it sound as if there is Adderall, and then there are amphetamines, when in reality, there is no difference.

Phluck, you are a stout evoluntionist (i think) and a very scientific person; can i ask you what the evolutionary purpose would be of a 40% increase in ONE YEAR! IN 1996  of people who "need" anti-depressants? or the constant, and never once declining (i dare you to prove this wrong) rate of children who are "afflicted" with ADD/ADHD?

Honestly answer this in your own opinion: does Adderall cure (not treat) ADD/ADHD?

Quote:

Your argument isn't "look at all of these problems that this is actually causing", you're just saying "C'MON! IT'S AMPHETAMINE! THAT MEANS IT'S BAD!"




come on... it is amphetamines. This is what the german government, our government (and many others) give to their adult soldiers so that they can fight for days on end. Governments love to dispense amphetamines because it increases production. This is oine reason why marijuana is illegal, is because it decreases production. Cocaine used to be prescribed to people, xtc used to be prescribed to people..... all under the guidance and admission of psychiatrists.
Think about all the drugs that are legal in the united states, and you will find the overwhelming majority of them are speed: caffeine, nicotine, and amphetamines. Beer is on this list as well, but remember that it was outlawed for a very long time, and is highly regulated and illegal for use outside of recreation, while these other speed drugs arent at all!


Quote:

... and why is it bad? Because it's ampetamine!



please list some of the great things amphetamines have done for our society outside the usage of war.

How many years would i be in jail for giving a 5th grader cocaine? there is very little chemical variation between the two.



Actually, they aren't really chemically similar at all.

http://www.erowid.org/plants/coca/coca_chemistry.shtml
http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/amphetamines/amphetamines_chemistry.shtml




cocaine and adderall are amphetamines... which have both been prescribed by psychiatrists and MD's..... how many years would i get for giving a 16 year old amphetamines?


Quote:

Im not arguing that Adderal doesnt work for its intended purpose. Im sure it does just that, but at what cost?

Exactly. What cost? You tell me. Where is the evidence that Adderall is actually causing serious problems? Not evidence that it can cause problems in certain people if abused... evidence that it IS causing problems.




ask and you shall receive...

Canadian regulators have suspended sales of the once-daily version of Adderall, a popular drug used to treat attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD). Health Canada said the drug carries a risk of sudden death in children. Later, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) issued an advisory about the drug.

"Health Canada has suspended the market authorization of the product due to safety information concerning the association of sudden deaths, heart-related deaths, and strokes in children and adults taking usual recommended doses of ADDERALL and ADDERALL XR," the agency said in a statement.

Health Canada said its decision came as a result of a review of safety information provided by the manufacturer, which indicated there were 20 international reports of sudden death in patients taking either ADDERALL or ADDERALL XR.

"These deaths were not associated with overdose, misuse or abuse. Fourteen deaths occurred in children, and six deaths in adults. There were 12 reports of stroke, two of which occurred in children. None of the reported deaths or strokes occurred in Canada," the agency said.
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2005/adderall.html

and to top it all off, i have a copious amount of links to read about sudden death, heart attacks in children and such caused by adderall.....

http://www.drugintel.com/drugs/adderall.htm
http://pediatrics.about.com/b/a/145729.htm
heart murmers for christs sake!


FDA issued a Public Health Advisory to notify healthcare professionals that Health Canada, the Canadian drug regulatory agency, has suspended the sale of Adderall XR in the Canadian market. Adderall XR is a controlled release amphetamine used to treat patients with Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD). The Canadian action was based on U.S. post-marketing reports of sudden deaths in pediatric patients. FDA is continuing to evaluate these and other post-marketing reports of serious adverse events in children, adolescents, and adults being treated with Adderall and related products. Adderall XR is approved in the United States for the treatment of adults and pediatric patients 6-12 years old with ADHD, and Adderall, the immediate release formulation of the drug, is approved for pediatric patients with ADHD.
http://www.jurdy.net/20050219154015.html

6-12 year olds! please attempt to justify to me in any way possible, why it is ok to give 6 year olds (remember the legal age for coherence and morality is 7!) amphetamines? i would love to hear it...

so i leave you with this tidbit of info....

In 1971, there were 31 amphetamine preparations being distributed by 15 pharmaceutical companies. Legal production was over 12 billion pills a year......

since 1971, i am willing to bet there has been atleast a 10% a year increase in the production of amphetamines disguised as remedies and the diagnosis of people with ADD/ADHD.

Dont you get it? the government, FDA, and pharmy corps are preying on the greatest human flaw: the inability to take responsibility.
I cant get enough of people trying to pawn their problems off on the scapegoat that is chemical imbalances. "oh, dear me, im a tard, but it isnt my fault! i have ADD!", "my child isnt stupid, it just has ADD". Everyone wants an excuse for their shortcomings and psychiatry (along with the FDA and pharmy companies) have given them just that.

Do you think it is just a huge coincidence, and perfectly ok that 54% of the FDA advisory board which passes the OK on government regulated and prescribed drugs is financially connected with the very same companies it is regulating? do you not see any ethical discrepencies here? do you not see the potential for the abuse of societies trust?

The pharmaceutical industry is the wealthiest, biggest lobbying, and most widespread industry in the world, beating out petroleum, and cosmetics. If the FDA were so great at making unbiased and solely scientifically supported decisions about drugs given to people, then why has vioxx, celebrex, Fen phen, phenylpropanolamine (which is foud in Acutrim?, Dexatrim?, Robitussin?), Naproxen, Ephedra, Baycol, Rezulin (which killed thousands of diabetics), Propulsid (an anti-heartburn medication which killed 70!) and lotronex (which killed as well, those who were afflicted with IBS, better known as irritable bowel syndrome)ALL BEEN PULLED AFTER THE OK OF THEIR USAGE AND SALES?.

Also! (dontcha love the also?) you have to love the "fast track" in the FDA. If I am correct, I think it is supposed to take 7 years of research and clinical studies before a drug is even approved out of the FDA. with fast track, as long as you can show an immediate need for the use of the drug, it can be approved in a matter of months. Many of the above mentioned drugs were approved for "fast track" as well as most of the anti-depressants and such. While this measure was supposed to be used only for things like: cancer drugs, Aid/Hiv drugs, and other highly debilitating illnesses where a certain drug could save thousands of lives if approved in time, it has been abused by corporations like Able, Merck and Pfizer thanks to the help of some millinos of dollars given to the advisory panels of the FDA.

Merck also has a very, very long history of marketing, lobbying, and profiting the sale of amphetamines dating as far back as manufacturing amphetamines for the Nazi's. They have always wanted to sell you amphetamines, and you have bought into it. They own America and will continue to do so until we start to wake up and realize that they are no better than any other drug cartel and are profiting from the mental and physical abuse of the WORLD.


Edited by psilocyberin (07/16/05 06:30 AM)


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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: This is ridiculous... [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4412348 - 07/16/05 06:58 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

The pharmaceutical industry is the wealthiest, biggest lobbying, and most widespread industry in the world..

Take a look at this information abou the pharmaceutical lobby:

By KEVIN FREKING, Associated Press Writer
Thu Jul 7, 1:07 AM ET

WASHINGTON - The pharmaceutical industry's run of success on Capitol Hill has benefited from the more than $800 million spent since 1998 on lobbyists and political campaigns, a political watchdog group said Wednesday.

In the past year, the industry hired nearly 1,300 lobbyists, including dozens of former lawmakers and hundreds of people who worked for congressional committees or regulatory agencies.

"It is astonishing to learn that no other interest has spent more money to sway public policy in this time period," said Roberta Baskin, the executive director of the Center for Public Integrity. The nonpartisan research group investigated the pharmaceutical industry's spending.

Baskin described the industry's motives for its spending as profit-driven.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&am.../drugs_lobbying


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: This is ridiculous... [Re: zorbman]
    #4413454 - 07/17/05 01:37 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Baskin described the industry's motives for its spending as profit-driven.
________________________________________________________

WOW! what a surprise. But isn't that the purpose of most if not all lobbying?

The medical profession is really big business. So business interests come first and you come after.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: This is ridiculous... [Re: Icelander]
    #4414072 - 07/17/05 06:28 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Unfortunately you are correct, my friend. Modern medicine is almost completely under the sway of the pharmaceutical industry. Their goal is to have every medical activity funneled into just one thing- the "discovery" of new medical conditions and the pushing of corresponding legal drugs which ideally only alleviate the symptoms of those conditions rather than addressing their root causes.

Ironically, modern medicine is not unlike some of the parasites it professes to want to eliminate. Any parasite worth its salt will do what? It will seek to siphon energy from its host while keeping the host alive as long as possible. Modern medicine wants to keep you alive just long enough to completely drain your bank account. After that, you are discarded.

Think I'm exaggerating? Take a look at any cancer ward and you will find expensive, toxic drugs being pumped into patients- drugs that are themselves cancer-causing! Even though the success rate for chemotherapy is pathetic, they continue to pressure patients to accept this "treatment" which in the vast majority of cases does not cure them or even extend their lives, but only serves to make their last days of life a living hell on earth.

Once they have fired the last bullet in their chamber(cancer cells adapt to "treatment"), having failed to halt the cancer, they send the patient home to die. Of course, by that time the patient's immune system is totally depleted from the "treatment" and they are left at the complete mercy of the cancer. Only in the end does the patient finally understand that most of their options in regard to alternative remedies have been forgone. And by then they have little (if any money) remaining.

Thanks a lot, guys.


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch


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OfflineScarfmeister
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Re: This is ridiculous... [Re: zorbman]
    #4414780 - 07/17/05 02:52 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Phluck is a bit defensive when it comes to his drugs isn't he?


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