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InvisibleSwami
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Spiritual Insight and the Real World
    #4404975 - 07/14/05 07:57 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Funny how many claim to have deep insight into the workings of the universe and the human condition whilst tripping and/or meditating and then state "you're a jerk for not agreeing with me" and "btw, can someone please help me with my failing relationship" and "how do I deal with a tyrant boss" and other ordinary problems.

If your mind-blowing perceptions cannot help you deal with day-to-day stuff, then they are near-worthless with no more substance than any other dream.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Spiritual Insight and the Real World [Re: Swami]
    #4405000 - 07/14/05 08:10 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

This begs another question: do spiritual insights (glimpses) exempt us from being human?

Without the inspiration received from supra-human experiences, life seems dull and flaccid.  Yet translating those ideas into everyday action, learning to make wise choices, following your heart...that is the work of a lifetime.

I agree that compartmentalizing the mind-blowing insights renders them worthless, but the fact that we have not all fully integrated spiritual awareness into our daily lives does not invalidate the seeds that still lie dormant within.
:heart:


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Offlinekosmic_charlie
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Re: Spiritual Insight and the Real World [Re: Swami]
    #4405001 - 07/14/05 08:11 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Someone can have a deep understanding of the human condition and still have relationship troubles and try to seek help for such troubles. Trial and tribulation is the basis for the human condition. Plus when people are on a completely different level than oneself, it is hard to be on perfect terms with them socially. Maybe if everyone was enlightened to the same extent things would run smoother.


--------------------

Goin' where the water tastes like wine.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Spiritual Insight and the Real World [Re: Swami]
    #4405012 - 07/14/05 08:17 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

And funny how many have had significant insight form psychedelic use and don't make outrageous claims and are able to handle the personal aspect of their day to day life better than before.

Why do you continually focus on these other people?  What are you trying to prove?  You can't prove by them that the psychedelic experience is worthless. You must take everyone into account.  :mushroom2:

And you claim people like McKenna are worthless because some of there reasoning turned out to be false.

Well how about people like Sigmund Freud. A lot of what he said is suspect now but he was a pioneer, and we wouldn't be where we are without his views. Good and Bad.  It isn't black and white, good guys and bad guys. :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Spiritual Insight and the Real World [Re: Veritas]
    #4405028 - 07/14/05 08:25 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

This begs another question: do spiritual insights (glimpses) exempt us from being human?
Exempt? No comprende. If I treat you with sensitivity and respect because I understand that you are a perfect expression of the divine, how is that NOT human?

Without the inspiration received from supra-human experiences, life seems dull and flaccid.
I forbid you to use the word "flaccid" when addressing me.

Yet translating those ideas into everyday action, learning to make wise choices, following your heart...that is the work of a lifetime.
Why would an insight need a translation? Insight is a DIRECT VIEW. If I totally grok that hurting another is hurting myself, what more processing is necessary? Do you have to learn to not stab yourself in the leg or is the repercussion obvious?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Spiritual Insight and the Real World [Re: Swami]
    #4405078 - 07/14/05 08:44 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

if you are going to rant
and you do do that most expurtly (flaccid is for wimps)
might as well go for the juglar

bravo!


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Spiritual Insight and the Real World [Re: Icelander]
    #4405131 - 07/14/05 09:02 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

And funny how many have had significant insight form psychedelic use and don't make outrageous claims and are able to handle the personal aspect of their day to day life better than before.
Based upon what? Where are the studies?

Why do you continually focus on these other people?
Um, because this is an interactive forum. When I am focusing on myself, I am not on the computer.

What are you trying to prove?
That the idea that temporarily disrupting normal brain function = spiritual insight is myth. This idea is NOT uniform among drug-takers. Some revere certain substances while others proclaim them to be damaging.

You can't prove by them that the psychedelic experience is worthless.
There you go again. Why MUST you try shore up your point through fabrication or exaggeration? Is the truth not enough? Please show one line where I said the experience was worthless. Is this type of warping indicative of a clear lucid mind grounded in reality or one trapped in emotional fantasy?

You must take everyone into account.
Whatever that means. Have you taken 6 billion people into account before responding?

And you claim people like McKenna are worthless because some of there reasoning turned out to be false.
One more time with the nonsensical hyperbole and imaginary conclusion. Never said that. *sigh* Is it too much to ask that you not make stuff up that you think I might have meant? Turn off your filters. Wait! Aren't psychedelics "supposed" to do that?

Well how about people like Sigmund Freud.
Non sequitur. How about Carmen Elecktra?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Spiritual Insight and the Real World [Re: Swami]
    #4405229 - 07/14/05 09:27 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

As I told you in another thread. I am the experience. You chose not to respond. Then MAIA, sent you some bios of men/women who have used these substances for purpose of growth. You chose not to respond.

I asked you what your personal  experience was with psychedelics was and if they had no meaning for you. You chose not to respond.


Well anyone who says taking psychedelics = spiritual insight  is wrong. That does not mean that using psychedelics doesn't effect spiritual insight in some. I know this to be true from experience. I don't need any studies to "prove" this.

I think we need only take into account the people who have used psychedelics Swami. :grin:

Well I would have to check back but I don't think you saw McKenna's work as valid. If I'm wrong I apologize.

What in your opinion is the worth of the psychedelic experience? And do you think it has any ability to foster spiritual/emotional growth in certain individuals. If I have fabricated something then once again I apologize. :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Spiritual Insight and the Real World [Re: Icelander]
    #4405356 - 07/14/05 09:50 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Climbing Mt. Everest, like tripping, is a peak experience, but one may still come down the mountain the same jerk as the one who went up.

Would you agree that The Shroomery most likely has the highest percentage of mushroom users of any other non-mushroom site?

Would you agree that pettiness, anger, hatred, and immaturity exists here as much as any other site? The fantasy level on S&P is one of the highest I have witnessed. I consider being grounded in a reality a cornerstone for a truth-seeker.

Why is alcoholism rampant in both the peyote and ayahuasca cultures?

Are Ravers who regularly take E, a positive social and spiritual force? (Saturday night: "Wow! You guys are so beautiful! I love you all so much." Monday morning: "Life sucks and is so depressing. Gotta get some more X to recapture that high.")

Where is the social evidence for transformative experience? Is the best that we have a few random spatterings of personal anecdotes?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisiblespud
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Re: Spiritual Insight and the Real World [Re: Swami]
    #4405361 - 07/14/05 09:51 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

You are committing the fallacy of division. Because the whole has a certain property, it is argued that the parts have that property. The whole in question maybe either a whole object or a collection or set of individual members.

Some examples are:
1. Each brick is three inches high, thus, the brick wall is three inches high.
2. Because the brain is capable of consciousness, each neural cell in the brain must be capable of consciousness.

The properties in question are the properties of the parts, and not of the whole.

An awareness of the universe doesn't suggest the presence of some sort of social mechanism allowing expertise interaction in society. As for deep insight into the workings of the human condition, I don't think most people really claim that.

Quote:

If your mind-blowing perceptions cannot help you deal with day-to-day stuff, then they are near-worthless with no more substance than any other dream.




So worth is defined by it's utility in creating an easier spectrum of life?


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Spiritual Insight and the Real World [Re: spud]
    #4405508 - 07/14/05 10:14 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

So worth is defined by it's utility in creating an easier spectrum of life?

Knowledge to have value must be applicable to "something". If one has "keen insight into human interaction" and still can't get along with anyone, then that knowledge is either flawed or worthless.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisiblespud
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Re: Spiritual Insight and the Real World [Re: Swami]
    #4405522 - 07/14/05 10:17 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
So worth is defined by it's utility in creating an easier spectrum of life?

Knowledge to have value must be applicable to "something". If one has "keen insight into human interaction" and still can't get along with anyone, then that knowledge is either flawed or worthless.




Applicable to "something" and applicable to day-to-day stuff are two things FAR apart.

Could you please point me to the direction where someone claims to have "keen insight into human interaction" through the use of psychedelics?


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Spiritual Insight and the Real World [Re: Swami]
    #4405540 - 07/14/05 10:21 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Good point here. I would have to say my spiritual beliefs have presented me with solutions to nearly all of my problems. If I have an epiphany I try to put it into solid practical use....if I cannot I discard it as garbage. It depends on if you consider practicality important to spirituality as I do. If an idea if "fun" or "cool" but not useful...it is trash in my book...but that is just me.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Spiritual Insight and the Real World [Re: Swami]
    #4405730 - 07/14/05 10:58 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Climbing Mt. Everest, like tripping, is a peak experience, but one may still come down the mountain the same jerk as the one who went up.

Would you agree that The Shroomery most likely has the highest percentage of mushroom users of any other non-mushroom site?

Would you agree that pettiness, anger, hatred, and immaturity exists here as much as any other site? The fantasy level on S&P is one of the highest I have witnessed. I consider being grounded in a reality a cornerstone for a truth-seeker.

Why is alcoholism rampant in both the peyote and ayahuasca cultures?

Are Ravers who regularly take E, a positive social and spiritual force? (Saturday night: "Wow! You guys are so beautiful! I love you all so much." Monday morning: "Life sucks and is so depressing. Gotta get some more X to recapture that high.")

Where is the social evidence for transformative experience? Is the best that we have a few random spatterings of personal anecdotes?




Yes many mushroom users here.

No I would not say that there is as much as on any other site. In fact I find a refreshing openmindedness here that I failed to find in other forums. Some political ones and even dog training forums. :grin:

I also disagree about the fantasy level. While high, I think it soars out in many other forums.

I have heard that peyote and ayahuasca USERS have much lower alcohol addiction than the cultures they are from.  Maybe I am misinformed. I am most willing to look at your source of this information.

Ravers are experiencing life and growth just like you and I are. So are alcohol users, political activists, military personal, poker players, ect. :grin: I think that many of them are working on deep painful early life experiences, and the fact that they get to feel very loving at some time at least shows them the potential for that as a place that can be attained. Then the work begins. If they become addicted to the drug thinking that is where there joy came from then they need to have more experience in delusion. Some will get it and most maybe will not. That has always been the way of it drug user or not.

IMO  we are all Divine humans as you mentioned to Veritas, or something like that. Spiritual growth comes in stages and rarely noticeable in most lives I fear. I  woke up from a fright full sleep when I took my first LSD voyage at 18. It set a more positive course for my life. I have no doubt of that now as I see what has manifested in my life. Joy, empathy, forgiveness, hope, love.  Those things were in very short supply in my childhood. I don't think I would have made it with out that experience. I saw something I hadn't seen before. I saw that I wasn't a loser like I was believing. I saw that my parents and neighbors were caught in fear. I saw that I might escape and find love. And I have. I am far from perfect , and like many ravers find that it is much harder to love in the day to day world. But my vision is clear and it keeps me trying, and sometimes I succeed. :grin:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Spiritual Insight and the Real World [Re: Icelander]
    #4405773 - 07/14/05 11:10 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

"I have heard that peyote and ayahuasca USERS have much lower alcohol addiction than the cultures they are from. Maybe I am misinformed. I am most willing to look at your source of this information."

You are not misinformed, but this is in the context of their native cultures.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Spiritual Insight and the Real World [Re: Swami]
    #4405795 - 07/14/05 11:19 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Most of my tripping insights have been therapeutic in nature. They usually occur during a stressful time in my life, when responsibilities and other problems are bearing down on me. Then I do mushrooms and realize it's not as bad as it seems, and that I can get through this. It's sort of like my mind is cleaning out all the clutter. It's more of a reminder than an actual new insight that I never thought of before.


--------------------


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: Spiritual Insight and the Real World [Re: Swami]
    #4406008 - 07/15/05 12:13 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:


Funny how many claim to have deep insight into the workings of the universe and the human condition whilst tripping and/or meditating and then state "you're a jerk for not agreeing with me" and "btw, can someone please help me with my failing relationship" and "how do I deal with a tyrant boss" and other ordinary problems.





one problem may be cleared up and another one appears
that's life ain't it?
whose life is problem-free?
drug user or otherwise?


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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Offlinetomk
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Re: Spiritual Insight and the Real World [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4406362 - 07/15/05 02:04 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Swami. So? Many cynical folks, like yourself, also have problems dealing with certain things in the real world.

I think there is a certain type of revalation you can get, that you need to be able to deal with some of the other ones. You need to understand fully and completely that your happiness is solely a matter of how you choose to relate to things. Then, you must systematically work at improving the way you relate to your own mind, other people, politics, the world, etc. One problem with psychedelics is that they don't always reveal the road. Maybe they can show you the proverbial mountaintop, but they aren't gaurenteed to show you how to start up that mountain. If you are lucky enough to understand that constantly forming good relationships is worthwhile, then other revelations you might get will be better accepted and integrated.


--------------------
"I am eternally free"


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Spiritual Insight and the Real World [Re: tomk]
    #4406529 - 07/15/05 02:58 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Cynical? Most all of my naysaying has been borne out to be 100% correct. Not saying that is so in this case, but how can proper understanding be cynical?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: Spiritual Insight and the Real World [Re: Swami]
    #4406746 - 07/15/05 04:17 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

"Cynical? Most all of my naysaying has been borne out to be 100% correct. Not saying that is so in this case, but how can proper understanding be cynical? "

so wait.. most of all your naysaying is 100% correct? mind loops  :crazy2: hehehe

but really now, psychedelics can allow you to view yourself and the world around you from an altered perspective, whether or not the state of mind or the thoughts from this perspective are true is another story. 

of course people can have grand revelations and then turn around and complain, aren't we all hypocrites? A lot of the times, when we learn a lesson, doesn't it take a bunch of tries before the person gets it right?

say a person talks about unconditional love, and then goes around saying "I hate George Bush" does this make the idea of unconditional love invalid?  if so..why?


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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