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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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"we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"...
    #4395763 - 07/12/05 01:23 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

this mantra is indellibly etched into the mind of every american..whether they choose to follow it or not...ill cut right to the chase ..it is a crass statement of intent to create inequality as an end to itself...what is typically the object of a "hunt"..anyway??...


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #4395775 - 07/12/05 01:27 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Hard to hunt down the little pieces of the terrorist, after he blows himself to bits.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: niteowl]
    #4395782 - 07/12/05 01:28 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

> Hard to hunt down the little pieces of the terrorist, after he blows himself to bits.

Which is why Isreal goes after the home in which the terrorist lived.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #4395803 - 07/12/05 01:39 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

We should never negotiate with terrorists. Neogotiating just gives them the mindset that by using violence they will get what they want.


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OfflineVex
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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: Redstorm]
    #4395816 - 07/12/05 01:45 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Neogotiating just gives them the mindset that by using violence they will get what they want.




All they have to do is look at the US to form that attitude. We use violence all the time to get what we want.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: Vex]
    #4395820 - 07/12/05 01:46 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

I don't deny that, but to negotiate with terrorists would be chaos. There are so many conflicting terrorists groups, that by pleasing one, the same decision would lead to other groups being pissed.


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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: Vex]
    #4395822 - 07/12/05 01:47 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Humans use violence to get what they want. Those fucking scum


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InvisibleIsaacHunt
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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: Redstorm]
    #4395824 - 07/12/05 01:47 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

.We should never negotiate with terrorists. Neogotiating just gives them the mindset that by using violence they will get what they want

For 30 years we didn't negotiate with the IRA. The violence got ever worse.

Then we negotiated with them. The violence ceased.


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OfflineVex
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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: Redstorm]
    #4395832 - 07/12/05 01:50 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
I don't deny that, but to negotiate with terrorists would be chaos. There are so many conflicting terrorists groups, that by pleasing one, the same decision would lead to other groups being pissed.




yeah it could cause more problems. plus it's not the same anyway. the US uses violence focused on total domination while the terrorists use violence focused on causing fear.


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: Vex]
    #4395859 - 07/12/05 02:06 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

We won't negotiate with them because......
they want us out of the Middle East......
and we aren't leaving.


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: niteowl]
    #4396012 - 07/12/05 02:54 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah, our oil-fueled Way Of Life(tm) requires us to be in the Middle East right now...


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: IsaacHunt]
    #4396088 - 07/12/05 03:10 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

IsaacHunt said:
.We should never negotiate with terrorists. Neogotiating just gives them the mindset that by using violence they will get what they want

For 30 years we didn't negotiate with the IRA. The violence got ever worse.

Then we negotiated with them. The violence ceased.




They only wanted political concessions. Militsnt Muslims want the destruction of Israel, all non-Muslims out of the Arabian peninsula, and land regained that was lost over 500 years ago (see: the Southern Iberian Peninsula). Even if we decided to negotiate with radical religious terrorist groups, there is no possible way we could grant the concessions they want.


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Invisiblepsilomonkey
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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: Redstorm]
    #4396147 - 07/12/05 03:22 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Even if we decided to negotiate with radical religious terrorist groups, there is no possible way we could grant the concessions they want.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stern_gang


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: psilomonkey]
    #4396151 - 07/12/05 03:23 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Shit, the Jews were going to get their independent state regardless of whether or not hey used terrorism.


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InvisibleIsaacHunt
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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: Redstorm]
    #4396418 - 07/12/05 04:45 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

They only wanted political concessions

No, they wanted the Brits out of Nothern Ireland. Just like the muslims want the US out of the middle east.

Militsnt Muslims want the destruction of Israel

Some do, some don't. We can talk all day about what the most extreme member of a group wants. I'm sure there are extreme members of the IRA who want a helluva lot more than what they got too. The point is if you please the vast bulk of normal people the terrorist support dries up and they die out.

there is no possible way we could grant the concessions they want.

It looks like Bush is planning to cut and run from Iraq by early 2006 anyway. There's a lot of scope for negotiating.


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: IsaacHunt]
    #4402560 - 07/14/05 07:18 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

It looks like Bush is planning to cut and run from Iraq by early 2006 anyway. There's a lot of scope for negotiating.




you couldnt tell from his recent speeches...but if thats true..then bush is no position to call kerry a "political opportunist"...

but to get back on topic (actually..to change it)..your responses (which i appreciate) have very much taken the titular mantra at face value...i will now pose the question as to whether ppl that dont do drugs view bushs' maxim as a broader social paradigm..rather than relating it specifically to proper terrorism...

for example..bushs' mantra could easily be construed as casting all human interactions as hierarchical and/or adversarial..where each individual begins to view the other not as an equal human to be negotiated with..but as an inferior animal to be "hunted down"...

do you agree or disagree?..and if so..can you site any examples (which dont have to be specific)...


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #4402646 - 07/14/05 08:33 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

America's forefathers were terrorists, but it is different because it was about "us" and England was the evil superpower then...


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OfflinePhred
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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: Swami]
    #4402674 - 07/14/05 09:01 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Actually, America's forefathers weren't terrorists. They didn't deliberately target civilians.

Which reminds me, Swami, are you ever going to get around to providing us your definition of terrorism?



Phred


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: Phred]
    #4402726 - 07/14/05 09:25 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

"The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons."

The Americans did NOT follow the accepted rules of engagement and the war started on an attack against property.

Of course, the word "terrorist" was not in vogue until centuries later.

No definition that I could find (except yours) includes the word "civilians". I guess we should all make up our own lexicography to make our points, eh?


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OfflinePhred
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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: Swami]
    #4402816 - 07/14/05 10:07 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

So by the definition you accept, there is no difference between say... the Iraqi uprising in 1991 intended to overthrow Hussein and the London bombings -- both are terrorism? Because of course in Iraq it was against Hussein's law to attempt to depose him by force. Treasonous, to be more concise.

By this definition the American Revolution was indeed "terrorism", because it was unlawful (by England's law) for the colonists to rebel against English rule.

The key word in your definition is "unlawful", with the UN (more accurately, whichever member of the UNSC casts a veto) being the sole arbiter of what is lawful in military action involving two or more member nations and what is not. The US intervention in Bosnia was therefore "terrorism". The coalition's resumption of hostilities in Iraq in March of 2003 is also "terrorism", because France decided it was unlawful.




Phred


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: Swami]
    #4402912 - 07/14/05 10:36 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
"The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons."

The Americans did NOT follow the accepted rules of engagement and the war started on an attack against property.

Of course, the word "terrorist" was not in vogue until centuries later.

No definition that I could find (except yours) includes the word "civilians". I guess we should all make up our own lexicography to make our points, eh?




Acts of murder and destruction deliberately directed against civilians or military in non-military situations.
http://www.jafi.org.il/education/hasbara/glossary.html

the calculated use of violence (or threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious or ideological in nature; this is done through intimindation or coercion or instilling fear
http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn%3Fs%3Dterrorism

a UN panel described terrorism as any act: "intended to cause death or serious bodily harm to civilians or non-combatants with the purpose of intimidating a population or compelling a government or an international organization to do or abstain from doing any act.
http://www.un.org/unifeed/script.asp?scriptId=73

Not following the rules of engagement does not make you a terrorist.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: Redstorm]
    #4403127 - 07/14/05 11:39 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Not following the rules of engagement does not make you a terrorist.




It does not necessarily make you a terrorist. Depending on the act it might classify you as a guerrilla. It might even make you a war criminal.

At any rate, it is clear Swami has chosen to accept a much broader definition of "terrorism" than you or I or the UN panel (and everyone I know in real life) have. That is of course his right.

I've found a lot of misunderstandings in discussions arise when people have differing understandings of commonly-used terms. Now that we know Swami's concept of terrorism, we can better understand his opposition to the actions of those who take up arms against tyrants.



Phred


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: Phred]
    #4404636 - 07/14/05 05:23 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Please define "tyrant".

I would consider the leader of the country with the largest ever prison population per capita to be guilty of crimes against humanity.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: Phred]
    #4404655 - 07/14/05 05:28 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

At any rate, it is clear Swami has chosen to accept a much broader definition of "terrorism" than you or I or the UN panel (and everyone I know in real life) have. That is of course his right.

Yes, how silly of me to use the broad-based and most accepted purveyor of lexicography - Webster, rather than a more politically-charged definition. Sorry to hear that no one you know uses the dictionary.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: Swami]
    #4405699 - 07/14/05 09:51 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

From all of the Political Science and Criminal Justices professors and scholars I've spoken to on the issue of terrorism (which is a large number of people), they have all agreed on the fact that a terrorist targets civilians.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: Redstorm]
    #4406009 - 07/14/05 11:14 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Do you not think that cluster bombs, missiles, Apache helicopters, Warthogs, hundreds of thousands of heavily armed foreign troops on one's homeland going from house to house arresting and killing civilians, etc. invoke terror?

Try a simple yes or no so that we may clarify.


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The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Swami (07/14/05 11:40 PM)


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OfflineProsgeopax
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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: Swami]
    #4406034 - 07/14/05 11:25 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

"Shock and awe" is another term for "terrorize."


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Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
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Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: Swami]
    #4406072 - 07/14/05 11:44 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Yes.


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: Phred]
    #4407029 - 07/15/05 06:27 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Actually, America's forefathers weren't terrorists. They didn't deliberately target civilians.





I disagree, often times both british and american troops did target civilians,
the majority of the time those innocents were the natives that had little
involvement in the war


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #4407347 - 07/15/05 10:49 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

Phred said:
Actually, America's forefathers weren't terrorists. They didn't deliberately target civilians.





I disagree, often times both british and american troops did target civilians,
the majority of the time those innocents were the natives that had little
involvement in the war




I don't doubt your knowledge, but do you have any sources showing this? i was under the impression that "total war" was not used before the Civil War.


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OfflineSmallworlds
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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: Redstorm]
    #4409239 - 07/15/05 08:32 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
We should never negotiate with terrorists. Neogotiating just gives them the mindset that by using violence they will get what they want.




That's total bullshit, hypocrisy, and lies.

The reason "they" are terrorists in the first place is because the U.S. won't negotiate with them. The U.S. just goes wherever it wants to and pushes people around, demands it's way, and out of total frustration with their inability to do anything about it short of blow shit up, they blow shit up.


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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: Smallworlds]
    #4409280 - 07/15/05 08:48 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Then we blow up their family.


--------------------



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Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
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OfflineSmallworlds
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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: downforpot]
    #4409291 - 07/15/05 08:51 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Well, at least they succeeded in getting the price for oil up.


--------------------
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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: downforpot]
    #4409311 - 07/15/05 08:57 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Heh...

Most goverments walk and work "hand in hand" with many groups that could be labeled "terrorists" when those groups choose to follow their own likings.

A phrase i like is : "The only difference between war and terrorism, is that war utilises a bigger budget"


I havent felt "shock and awe" but "shock and disgust" in both american attacks and "al quaeda" attacks (if indeed both in London and Twin Buildings al quaeda was involved).

Personally im terrorized by the Europian Union now stating obsenely (not that it didnt happen before) of logging all telecommunications for a year or so. Maybe in some years or decades goverments will kindly tell us that they want to put cameras on our doors for personal security. Then in our houses...And the terror will rise when they ask as to put them in our asses as well (just to prevent unauthorized anal entry :laugh: ) and we will have to respond to shove them up their own holes!

Still,im terrorized equally from the "childisness" of many powerfull  goverments and the so called "terrorists".


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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: Smallworlds]
    #4409328 - 07/15/05 09:02 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Smallworlds said:
Quote:

Redstorm said:
We should never negotiate with terrorists. Neogotiating just gives them the mindset that by using violence they will get what they want.




That's total bullshit, hypocrisy, and lies.

The reason "they" are terrorists in the first place is because the U.S. won't negotiate with them. The U.S. just goes wherever it wants to and pushes people around, demands it's way, and out of total frustration with their inability to do anything about it short of blow shit up, they blow shit up.




so we negotiate with one terrorist, then a ton more pop up, kidnapping innocent people and threatening to cut their heads off if we dont give them what they want. when would it end? it wouldn't because there would be so many people going along with terrorism to simply get what they want because they think we will negotiate.

lets say that we left iraq awhile ago when one of our innocent citizens abroad was kidnapped and the terrorists said that if we didnt leave, they would kill the civilian. more people would come out and kidnap innocent civilians thinking that we would negotiate with them too. people would start kidnapping and threatening death upon us and ask for money in return. they would figure "hey, the US left iraq because someone else did this, surely they would give me a million dollars to not kill this person, after all, a million dollars wouldnt even put a dent in the US bank account."

it just wouldnt end. where do you draw the line? not negotiating with terrorists is the only way to go.


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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: Smallworlds]
    #4409485 - 07/15/05 09:44 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Smallworlds said:
Quote:

Redstorm said:
We should never negotiate with terrorists. Neogotiating just gives them the mindset that by using violence they will get what they want.




That's total bullshit, hypocrisy, and lies.

The reason "they" are terrorists in the first place is because the U.S. won't negotiate with them. The U.S. just goes wherever it wants to and pushes people around, demands it's way, and out of total frustration with their inability to do anything about it short of blow shit up, they blow shit up.




Tell us how you would start a dialogue with a top member of al-queda and hamas. You can also say what you believe they will say. I just need a rough idea of how this will work.


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OfflineSmallworlds
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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: nightkrawler]
    #4409492 - 07/15/05 09:46 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

nono

You negotiate with people, so that they don't feel like becoming a terrorist in the first place. Obviously these people feel like they have been shafted, and they have no legal recourse, so they do what they can do, which is blow up things.

You treat people unfairly, bully them, like in Waco, like the Marijuanna laws, like the middle east etc. etc...

..push people into a corner and ass-rape them long enough and some of them are gonna snap the fuck off on you. duh.


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OfflineSmallworlds
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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: looner2]
    #4409531 - 07/15/05 09:57 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

looner2 said:
Quote:

Smallworlds said:
Quote:

Redstorm said:
We should never negotiate with terrorists. Neogotiating just gives them the mindset that by using violence they will get what they want.




That's total bullshit, hypocrisy, and lies.

The reason "they" are terrorists in the first place is because the U.S. won't negotiate with them. The U.S. just goes wherever it wants to and pushes people around, demands it's way, and out of total frustration with their inability to do anything about it short of blow shit up, they blow shit up.




Tell us how you would start a dialogue with a top member of al-queda and hamas. You can also say what you believe they will say. I just need a rough idea of how this will work.




Well, you could start by allowing the American people to hear what their complaints are, be human enough to admit that perhaps these "terrorists" represent those who America has oppressed over the years, and let the American people decide what to do about their complaints.

People who can bargain do not terrorize, and people who cannot bargain feel justified in terrorizing.

America's official policy:

step #1: We go over and fuck people over in other lands while Americans are buzy having barbeques.

step #2: When they retaliate in the only way they feel that they can, and blow up shit, we tell the Americans that these people are somehow just "evil", and do this shit because they are jealous of our "freedom". lol

step #3 We kill more of their people, and tag them as "terrorists", just like we tagged marijuanna as "evil" because it brings about peace.

get the picture?


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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: Smallworlds]
    #4409537 - 07/15/05 09:57 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Smallworlds said:
nono

You negotiate with people, so that they don't feel like becoming a terrorist in the first place. Obviously these people feel like they have been shafted, and they have no legal recourse, so they do what they can do, which is blow up things.

You treat people unfairly, bully them, like in Waco, like the Marijuanna laws, like the middle east etc. etc...

..push people into a corner and ass-rape them long enough and some of them are gonna snap the fuck off on you. duh.




Ok I got it the first time, we are being very very very mean.

But really, what "people" (why did you italicize?) are you speaking of? How should we go around treating them fairly?

Back to al-queda and hamas, what would you say to them if you were in front of them? Peace talks? Negotiations?


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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: nightkrawler]
    #4409554 - 07/15/05 10:02 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Or, I'll just sum it all up in one sentence:

America is not a peaceful nation.


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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: Smallworlds]
    #4409558 - 07/15/05 10:02 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Smallworlds said:
Well, you could start by allowing the American people to hear what their complaints are, be human enough to admit that perhaps these "terrorists" represent those who America has oppressed over the years, and let the American people decide what to do about their complaints.




What are their complaints? Surely you know and aren't one of those barbeque americans.


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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: looner2]
    #4409576 - 07/15/05 10:06 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

I italicize because those labeled terrorists are really just people with no way out.

What would I tell them? I'd tell them that America will start paying them a fair price for their oil, quit depleting their countries' natural resources and pissing it off driving SUV's while we pay them pennies and they ride camels, that America will be legalizing weed, and other harmless drugs tomorrow, and that all we want is peace.


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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: looner2]
    #4409610 - 07/15/05 10:12 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

looner2 said:
Quote:

Smallworlds said:
Well, you could start by allowing the American people to hear what their complaints are, be human enough to admit that perhaps these "terrorists" represent those who America has oppressed over the years, and let the American people decide what to do about their complaints.




What are their complaints? Surely you know and aren't one of those barbeque americans.




Oh but I am one of those barbeque Americans. My government has lied to it's people for years, and still lies. Their specific complaints are never broadcast for us to hear, because they may contain a "message to terrorists".

However even a blind man knows when the sun is shining, and I can see what the rough outline of the situation must be.


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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: Smallworlds]
    #4409632 - 07/15/05 10:17 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Actually, if you look at the demography of many of these terrorists, they are not poor people.


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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: Redstorm]
    #4409662 - 07/15/05 10:22 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Actually, if you look at the demography of many of these terrorists, they are not poor people.




Then why aren't they barbequing?


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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: Smallworlds]
    #4409674 - 07/15/05 10:24 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Smallworlds said:
Quote:

Redstorm said:
Actually, if you look at the demography of many of these terrorists, they are not poor people.




Then why aren't they barbequing?




I feel really stupid. Barbequing? I don't understand what you mean (I'm serious, not fucking with you).


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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: Redstorm]
    #4409723 - 07/15/05 10:33 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

What I meant was this: America counts on the fact that their people are well-fed and live a life of luxury, at least compared to lots of other nations. Why should Americans care what their government is doing abroad as long as the briquettes are glowing?

On the other hand, these well-funded terrorists do not kick back and ignore what is going on because:

#1 Their countries are being fucked by America.

#2 They feel like being "activists" to support their people.

Just because they are rich does not mean that they will ignore what America does to oppress their countrymen.


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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: Smallworlds]
    #4409748 - 07/15/05 10:37 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

I beg to differ. Though there obviously are many who are fighting b/c they believe what is happening in their countries is wrong, it would be foolish not admit there are many out there who fight to try to achieve unobtainable goals (regain of Muslim Spain, only Muslims in the Arabian Peninsula). Though I believe that some of their grievances are legitimate (a Palestinian state, and a pull-out from Iraq), others are just absurd.


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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: Redstorm]
    #4409750 - 07/15/05 10:38 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

And perhaps these "terrorists" believe that if they can destroy what's left of our civil liberties, more Americans will wake the fuck up and restore their government to common sense.


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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: Smallworlds]
    #4409760 - 07/15/05 10:39 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Smallworlds said:
And perhaps these "terrorists" believe that if they can destroy what's left of our civil liberties, more Americans will wake the fuck up and restore their government to common sense.




You don't honestly think that's one of their goals, do you?


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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: Redstorm]
    #4409785 - 07/15/05 10:45 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Don't get me wrong now...I despise all acts of violence, including terrorist acts. But I feel it a much more reasonable stance to take in evaluating:

"What made those people so angry?"

"What could we have done differently so that these people would not have felt forced to do what they did?"

"Is my government doing the same thing to those people as they are doing to me and my countrymen concerning marijuanna? Namely, ignoring all of the muffled cries and using brute force to impliment their will in the matter?"

Rather than just sucking Uncle Sam's dick and saying: "Let's not negotiate with the terrorists."?


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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: Redstorm]
    #4409791 - 07/15/05 10:46 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Quote:

Smallworlds said:
And perhaps these "terrorists" believe that if they can destroy what's left of our civil liberties, more Americans will wake the fuck up and restore their government to common sense.




You don't honestly think that's one of their goals, do you?




Not really, but it's been a rather interesting side-effect which a thinking terrorist may have noticed.


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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: Smallworlds]
    #4409940 - 07/15/05 11:31 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

i think you are hopelessly optimistic smallworlds.

there will always be insane people in this world, with non tolerant views of other cultures and societies. there will always be people who will try to push their idealogies and morals on to other people.

lets go over some hypothetical situations here.

lets say for example that america were to legalize drugs. there will be other countries with extremist groups of people who would see the united states as a land of sin. mexico is below us, canada is above us, they're in our sphere of influence. after we legalize drugs, canada could be next, then mexico, then eventually the countries south of mexico. then like that, drugs are completely legal on 2 continents. it could only be a matter of time that a country in europe follows in americas footsteps, then before you know it, europe could have drugs legalized. extremist groups would want to get rid of the threat of legal drugs while it's still small, before it overwhelmes everyone. they will do everything in their power to destroy us, because the whole world would be better off without us in their opinions. there will always be people with strong viewpoints condemning other people. it's the way the world works.

people get brainwashed by the society that they live in. much of the reason that al qaeda doesn't like us is because we are so different from them. women in the USA can walk amongst the streets with their faces uncovered. it's unheard of to do that in many parts of the middle east. granted, not all of them want to kill us for it, but there are a small percent of extremists who do, and with so many people in this world, all you need is a small percent to stir up trouble. there are people who want to destroy us for working on sundays, or saturdays, or whatever days because it's supposed to be a day of rest, because that's what some book says. it's a shame that the world is like this, but it is. and i'm not saying that we're completely innocent either.

most people here have the attitude why kill someone when you can get high with them? i agree, but other people don't, and those other people are the people who's opinion matters most, because they are the ones who act against us. and how do they act against us? they dont have big armies to go against everyone, they operate in small terrorists groups, where a single person can crash a plane into a building killing thousands. they try to strike fear into us.

i'm sorry if i kind of went off on a tangent. this is what happens when you make posts when you're high and overanalyze things :smile: i like everything you have to say smallworlds, i just think that it isn't very realistic.

:mushroom2: :mushroom2: :mushroom2:


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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: nightkrawler]
    #4411063 - 07/16/05 09:03 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Yes, but the reason it's like that is because the climate has been made ideal for such nonsense.

Most people would rather get high with other people rather than killing them given the opportnity, which is why the corrupt governments hate drugs which foster peace, love, and understanding.

Loving life is contageous, and if the climate were made ideal for the spread of peace, love, and understanding the violence could very well fade away into obscurity and rarity indeed.

Your government has gone to great lengths to make people afraid and unaware, were this artificial condition to be somehow undone, nature could take it's course and people could live as one.


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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: nightkrawler]
    #4411220 - 07/16/05 10:34 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

lets go over some hypothetical situations here.

lets say for example that america were to legalize drugs. there will be other countries with extremist groups of people who would see the united states as a land of sin. mexico is below us, canada is above us, they're in our sphere of influence. after we legalize drugs, canada could be next, then mexico, then eventually the countries south of mexico. then like that, drugs are completely legal on 2 continents. it could only be a matter of time that a country in europe follows in americas footsteps, then before you know it, europe could have drugs legalized. extremist groups would want to get rid of the threat of legal drugs while it's still small, before it overwhelmes everyone. they will do everything in their power to destroy us, because the whole world would be better off without us in their opinions. there will always be people with strong viewpoints condemning other people. it's the way the world works.




i know it says "hypothetical"..but the reality is that europe and canada have semi-legalized drugs and america is reacting against it...

Quote:

much of the reason that al qaeda doesn't like us is because we are so different from them. women in the USA can walk amongst the streets with their faces uncovered. it's unheard of to do that in many parts of the middle east.




women dont wear burkhas in most countries..and al-Q isnt trying to blow them up...IMNSHO..the reason there are ppl that want to blow up america is because is in fact as evil as OBL claims...however autocratic islamic culture might be in reality..it still pales in comparison to what we have become...


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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: Smallworlds]
    #4411231 - 07/16/05 10:38 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Smallworlds said:
Yes, but the reason it's like that is because the climate has been made ideal for such nonsense.

Most people would rather get high with other people rather than killing them given the opportnity, which is why the corrupt governments hate drugs which foster peace, love, and understanding.

Loving life is contageous, and if the climate were made ideal for the spread of peace, love, and understanding the violence could very well fade away into obscurity and rarity indeed.

Your government has gone to great lengths to make people afraid and unaware, were this artificial condition to be somehow undone, nature could take it's course and people could live as one.




now im going to turn around and play devils' advocate ..how do you address the arguement that the climate is such out of economic necessity..and our own ppl would starve or freeze to death if it were otherwise?...


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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: Smallworlds]
    #4411518 - 07/16/05 12:38 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Smallworlds said:
On the other hand, these well-funded terrorists do not kick back and ignore what is going on because:

#1 Their countries are being fucked by America.

#2 They feel like being "activists" to support their people.



You know, your arguments might have a little more credibility if you could be a little more specific than "being fucked by America". HOW are they being "fucked"? Examples, please.


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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #4411556 - 07/16/05 12:51 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

As such:

"Economic nescessity" is a far cry from reality. "Economic nescessity" to most fat Americans means being able to drive SUV's, crank the heat to 80 in the winter, eat gourmet foods, etc. etc.

Is it also because of "economic nescessity" that combined, most U.S. restaurants throw away enough food each day to feed several countries where people are starving right now?

Is it "economic nescessity" really, or is it wasting valuable commodities while other "underdeveloped" countries' peoples freeze and starve to death today, right now?

America does not wish to co-exist peacefully with the rest of the world, it wants to dominate it, dictate policy to it by way of force (death), and then use the basically stolen resources to live in the lap of luxury and waste, waste, waste it all foolishly.

America is already causing untold death, poverty, disease, starvation, pain, and suffering to many, many peoples of the world with it's fat-cat policies of greed.

So I ask you, oh devil's advocate, what of these people's "economic nescessities"?


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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: Silversoul]
    #4411572 - 07/16/05 12:56 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Quote:

Smallworlds said:
On the other hand, these well-funded terrorists do not kick back and ignore what is going on because:

#1 Their countries are being fucked by America.

#2 They feel like being "activists" to support their people.



You know, your arguments might have a little more credibility if you could be a little more specific than "being fucked by America". HOW are they being "fucked"? Examples, please.




With no grease.

We occupy their lands, steal their resources, dictate policy, install governments etc. etc.

How is all of that not equal to them getting fucked?

Examples? Do I need to collect a drop of rain, put it into a little baggie and mail it to you before you'll believe that it is raining?


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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: Smallworlds]
    #4411782 - 07/16/05 02:20 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

>> "Economic nescessity" is a far cry from reality. "Economic nescessity" to most fat Americans means being able to drive SUV's, crank the heat to 80 in the winter, eat gourmet foods, etc. etc.

its not that simple ..all those SUVs..etc fund the value of the dollar..and if we suddenly decided to shitcan the SUVs in favour of avoiding wars..then the price of those SUVs will become an equivalent amount of inflation...inflation is a form of taxation-without-representation..to which americans are viscerally averse...furthermore..you cant eat a green piece of paper..which is all you have when the goods that gave it value suddenly become worthless...

>> Is it "economic nescessity" really, or is it wasting valuable commodities while other "underdeveloped" countries' peoples freeze and starve to death today, right now?

i dont dispute that its inefficient..but you dont know that there still wont be enough energy to go around even if we were living at maximum efficiency...


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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #4412027 - 07/16/05 03:55 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Listen, I'm just saying that it takes two to tango, and these bomb wearing bastards that blow up people trying to eat dinner are no different than the governments that they are actually angry with because these governments fuck them and their countries over, but they put a play on words on it, spend more money on it, and own the media that most people count on for "official news and information" so people don't see the reality of it all. Dig?

I don't like suicide bombers, but that doesn't mean that I'm gonna buddy up with the same governments that spawned the mother fuckers into existance in the first place.


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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: Swami]
    #4420215 - 07/18/05 07:08 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Here we have some British Muslims who use the same definition of terrorism Swami prefers:



and here we have a trio of British ladies watching the festivities:




Phred


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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #4420690 - 07/18/05 09:10 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

This issue seems like a dilemma from both the sides.

Specifically in the radical islamic terrorism, people are slowly getting to relearn what it is all about, that it isnt a good vs bad, freedom, sorta thing. If U.S is ever going to sit down to talk with al qaeda, it must give an answer to the military installations in the middle east, along with waiting for the economic alliance between israel and the u.s to change. the issues they demand are simply high agendas in the foriegn policy of u.s so we'll see how this issue goes.

one thing certain is things have got to change and fast. this isnt an issue that is going to disappear and some have to question the hardliner approach to the issue...


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Just let everything flow, just flow right to the center of everything. You gotta turn off your mind and relax, and then just float downstream...


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