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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: Swami]
    #4402912 - 07/14/05 10:36 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
"The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons."

The Americans did NOT follow the accepted rules of engagement and the war started on an attack against property.

Of course, the word "terrorist" was not in vogue until centuries later.

No definition that I could find (except yours) includes the word "civilians". I guess we should all make up our own lexicography to make our points, eh?




Acts of murder and destruction deliberately directed against civilians or military in non-military situations.
http://www.jafi.org.il/education/hasbara/glossary.html

the calculated use of violence (or threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious or ideological in nature; this is done through intimindation or coercion or instilling fear
http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn%3Fs%3Dterrorism

a UN panel described terrorism as any act: "intended to cause death or serious bodily harm to civilians or non-combatants with the purpose of intimidating a population or compelling a government or an international organization to do or abstain from doing any act.
http://www.un.org/unifeed/script.asp?scriptId=73

Not following the rules of engagement does not make you a terrorist.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: Redstorm]
    #4403127 - 07/14/05 11:39 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Not following the rules of engagement does not make you a terrorist.




It does not necessarily make you a terrorist. Depending on the act it might classify you as a guerrilla. It might even make you a war criminal.

At any rate, it is clear Swami has chosen to accept a much broader definition of "terrorism" than you or I or the UN panel (and everyone I know in real life) have. That is of course his right.

I've found a lot of misunderstandings in discussions arise when people have differing understandings of commonly-used terms. Now that we know Swami's concept of terrorism, we can better understand his opposition to the actions of those who take up arms against tyrants.



Phred


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: Phred]
    #4404636 - 07/14/05 05:23 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Please define "tyrant".

I would consider the leader of the country with the largest ever prison population per capita to be guilty of crimes against humanity.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: Phred]
    #4404655 - 07/14/05 05:28 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

At any rate, it is clear Swami has chosen to accept a much broader definition of "terrorism" than you or I or the UN panel (and everyone I know in real life) have. That is of course his right.

Yes, how silly of me to use the broad-based and most accepted purveyor of lexicography - Webster, rather than a more politically-charged definition. Sorry to hear that no one you know uses the dictionary.


--------------------



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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: Swami]
    #4405699 - 07/14/05 09:51 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

From all of the Political Science and Criminal Justices professors and scholars I've spoken to on the issue of terrorism (which is a large number of people), they have all agreed on the fact that a terrorist targets civilians.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: Redstorm]
    #4406009 - 07/14/05 11:14 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Do you not think that cluster bombs, missiles, Apache helicopters, Warthogs, hundreds of thousands of heavily armed foreign troops on one's homeland going from house to house arresting and killing civilians, etc. invoke terror?

Try a simple yes or no so that we may clarify.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Swami (07/14/05 11:40 PM)


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OfflineProsgeopax
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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: Swami]
    #4406034 - 07/14/05 11:25 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

"Shock and awe" is another term for "terrorize."


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: Swami]
    #4406072 - 07/14/05 11:44 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Yes.


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: Phred]
    #4407029 - 07/15/05 06:27 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Actually, America's forefathers weren't terrorists. They didn't deliberately target civilians.





I disagree, often times both british and american troops did target civilians,
the majority of the time those innocents were the natives that had little
involvement in the war


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #4407347 - 07/15/05 10:49 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

Phred said:
Actually, America's forefathers weren't terrorists. They didn't deliberately target civilians.





I disagree, often times both british and american troops did target civilians,
the majority of the time those innocents were the natives that had little
involvement in the war




I don't doubt your knowledge, but do you have any sources showing this? i was under the impression that "total war" was not used before the Civil War.


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OfflineSmallworlds
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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: Redstorm]
    #4409239 - 07/15/05 08:32 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
We should never negotiate with terrorists. Neogotiating just gives them the mindset that by using violence they will get what they want.




That's total bullshit, hypocrisy, and lies.

The reason "they" are terrorists in the first place is because the U.S. won't negotiate with them. The U.S. just goes wherever it wants to and pushes people around, demands it's way, and out of total frustration with their inability to do anything about it short of blow shit up, they blow shit up.


--------------------
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Smoke plenty of green, and eat fungus!!!!
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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: Smallworlds]
    #4409280 - 07/15/05 08:48 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Then we blow up their family.


--------------------



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Then shot in his head
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OfflineSmallworlds
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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: downforpot]
    #4409291 - 07/15/05 08:51 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Well, at least they succeeded in getting the price for oil up.


--------------------
Through the excercise of patience, one may learn humility..

Smoke plenty of green, and eat fungus!!!!
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OfflinePsiloman
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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: downforpot]
    #4409311 - 07/15/05 08:57 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Heh...

Most goverments walk and work "hand in hand" with many groups that could be labeled "terrorists" when those groups choose to follow their own likings.

A phrase i like is : "The only difference between war and terrorism, is that war utilises a bigger budget"


I havent felt "shock and awe" but "shock and disgust" in both american attacks and "al quaeda" attacks (if indeed both in London and Twin Buildings al quaeda was involved).

Personally im terrorized by the Europian Union now stating obsenely (not that it didnt happen before) of logging all telecommunications for a year or so. Maybe in some years or decades goverments will kindly tell us that they want to put cameras on our doors for personal security. Then in our houses...And the terror will rise when they ask as to put them in our asses as well (just to prevent unauthorized anal entry :laugh: ) and we will have to respond to shove them up their own holes!

Still,im terrorized equally from the "childisness" of many powerfull  goverments and the so called "terrorists".


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Offlinenightkrawler
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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: Smallworlds]
    #4409328 - 07/15/05 09:02 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Smallworlds said:
Quote:

Redstorm said:
We should never negotiate with terrorists. Neogotiating just gives them the mindset that by using violence they will get what they want.




That's total bullshit, hypocrisy, and lies.

The reason "they" are terrorists in the first place is because the U.S. won't negotiate with them. The U.S. just goes wherever it wants to and pushes people around, demands it's way, and out of total frustration with their inability to do anything about it short of blow shit up, they blow shit up.




so we negotiate with one terrorist, then a ton more pop up, kidnapping innocent people and threatening to cut their heads off if we dont give them what they want. when would it end? it wouldn't because there would be so many people going along with terrorism to simply get what they want because they think we will negotiate.

lets say that we left iraq awhile ago when one of our innocent citizens abroad was kidnapped and the terrorists said that if we didnt leave, they would kill the civilian. more people would come out and kidnap innocent civilians thinking that we would negotiate with them too. people would start kidnapping and threatening death upon us and ask for money in return. they would figure "hey, the US left iraq because someone else did this, surely they would give me a million dollars to not kill this person, after all, a million dollars wouldnt even put a dent in the US bank account."

it just wouldnt end. where do you draw the line? not negotiating with terrorists is the only way to go.


--------------------

Not all who wander are lost - J.R.R. Tolkien


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Invisiblelooner2
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Registered: 06/20/04
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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: Smallworlds]
    #4409485 - 07/15/05 09:44 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Smallworlds said:
Quote:

Redstorm said:
We should never negotiate with terrorists. Neogotiating just gives them the mindset that by using violence they will get what they want.




That's total bullshit, hypocrisy, and lies.

The reason "they" are terrorists in the first place is because the U.S. won't negotiate with them. The U.S. just goes wherever it wants to and pushes people around, demands it's way, and out of total frustration with their inability to do anything about it short of blow shit up, they blow shit up.




Tell us how you would start a dialogue with a top member of al-queda and hamas. You can also say what you believe they will say. I just need a rough idea of how this will work.


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I am in love with Acidic_Sloth



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OfflineSmallworlds
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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: nightkrawler]
    #4409492 - 07/15/05 09:46 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

nono

You negotiate with people, so that they don't feel like becoming a terrorist in the first place. Obviously these people feel like they have been shafted, and they have no legal recourse, so they do what they can do, which is blow up things.

You treat people unfairly, bully them, like in Waco, like the Marijuanna laws, like the middle east etc. etc...

..push people into a corner and ass-rape them long enough and some of them are gonna snap the fuck off on you. duh.


--------------------
Through the excercise of patience, one may learn humility..

Smoke plenty of green, and eat fungus!!!!
:peace::heart::slomo::gd_icon::gd_icon::gd_icon::slomo:


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OfflineSmallworlds
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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: looner2]
    #4409531 - 07/15/05 09:57 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

looner2 said:
Quote:

Smallworlds said:
Quote:

Redstorm said:
We should never negotiate with terrorists. Neogotiating just gives them the mindset that by using violence they will get what they want.




That's total bullshit, hypocrisy, and lies.

The reason "they" are terrorists in the first place is because the U.S. won't negotiate with them. The U.S. just goes wherever it wants to and pushes people around, demands it's way, and out of total frustration with their inability to do anything about it short of blow shit up, they blow shit up.




Tell us how you would start a dialogue with a top member of al-queda and hamas. You can also say what you believe they will say. I just need a rough idea of how this will work.




Well, you could start by allowing the American people to hear what their complaints are, be human enough to admit that perhaps these "terrorists" represent those who America has oppressed over the years, and let the American people decide what to do about their complaints.

People who can bargain do not terrorize, and people who cannot bargain feel justified in terrorizing.

America's official policy:

step #1: We go over and fuck people over in other lands while Americans are buzy having barbeques.

step #2: When they retaliate in the only way they feel that they can, and blow up shit, we tell the Americans that these people are somehow just "evil", and do this shit because they are jealous of our "freedom". lol

step #3 We kill more of their people, and tag them as "terrorists", just like we tagged marijuanna as "evil" because it brings about peace.

get the picture?


--------------------
Through the excercise of patience, one may learn humility..

Smoke plenty of green, and eat fungus!!!!
:peace::heart::slomo::gd_icon::gd_icon::gd_icon::slomo:


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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: Smallworlds]
    #4409537 - 07/15/05 09:57 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Smallworlds said:
nono

You negotiate with people, so that they don't feel like becoming a terrorist in the first place. Obviously these people feel like they have been shafted, and they have no legal recourse, so they do what they can do, which is blow up things.

You treat people unfairly, bully them, like in Waco, like the Marijuanna laws, like the middle east etc. etc...

..push people into a corner and ass-rape them long enough and some of them are gonna snap the fuck off on you. duh.




Ok I got it the first time, we are being very very very mean.

But really, what "people" (why did you italicize?) are you speaking of? How should we go around treating them fairly?

Back to al-queda and hamas, what would you say to them if you were in front of them? Peace talks? Negotiations?


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OfflineSmallworlds
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Registered: 03/12/05
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Re: "we dont negotiate with terrorists...we hunt them down"... [Re: nightkrawler]
    #4409554 - 07/15/05 10:02 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Or, I'll just sum it all up in one sentence:

America is not a peaceful nation.


--------------------
Through the excercise of patience, one may learn humility..

Smoke plenty of green, and eat fungus!!!!
:peace::heart::slomo::gd_icon::gd_icon::gd_icon::slomo:


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