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InvisibleSinbad
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Thinking Mind *DELETED*
    #4392691 - 07/11/05 04:07 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Post deleted by Sinbad

Reason for deletion: too much



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Edited by Sinbad (07/11/05 04:12 PM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Thinking Mind [Re: Sinbad]
    #4392854 - 07/11/05 04:51 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

I think you are going to get mad at me because I have to say this is garbled, some obvious truth and some obvious mangled information:

the first sentence is a poem.

the second is retorical, but not too bad, that "we start to form thoughts" or encounter associations from the mind applies to any apprehension, not just the "nice something".

you introduce the "starting to investigate" which is good, it is a routine we have learned (i.e. conditioned response)

{do we respond to everything? which responses emerge dominant and control the flow? is the response also a filter reducing input to better channel more responses and keep the investigation on course?}

I take umbrage that you call indifferent a matter of dullness.
there is attraction (attachment) repulsion (anger/fear/hate), and detached stillness or non-response (which can be an exquisitely conscious ballance - seldom dullness except in sleeping)

then you introduce karma - is this buddhism? well if so then you have to connect the karma up to the roots (hatred greed and delusion, or love, generosity, clarity)

so far you have not really brought up morality, just instinctual attraction and repulsion, but looking at citta (mind moments - not just thought) as a key to how and when karma comes into it is good, thought is a kind of loose aggregation of many citta in sequences.

then you do get into the mechanism of training or learning by repetition to create association, but since you introduced thoughts with liking and disliking you skip the linkage of associative linkage as fundamentally dependent on repetition as well.

so you do get it all in but still somehow disjoined. a full view, in falling pieces - like a poem - I see that you see it but I am projecting as well (my investigation filters too).

the "solidity of the world" is the limited filtered subset of reality from our overly trained investigation. (that is a trick few remember)

trained investigations: equals = jumping (like monkeys) from one expected handhold to the next!

I guess you want to tie in the duality of attracting and revulsing to the associative process and the filtered investigation behaviour that we learn.

there is a big pitfall in calling any of this bad.

the associative process - learning - associating - reacting and filtering to keep on track, are a good basis for all of our mentation.

it is important to understand how mentation can be limiting, but also how it is a wonderful part of creation. it is not a flaw at all. it is the fertilizer and soil of our consciousness.

Quote:

Sinbad said:... {...snip...}
So, instead of saying "I like such and such", we might as well be saying "It is my habitual tendency to be fond of that".

To summarize, dualistic mind is serverly flawed becuase it is limited to the attitudes of liking, disliking and feeling indifferent. It hopes and fears, accepts and rejects, and thus it suffers.




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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Thinking Mind [Re: Sinbad]
    #4392902 - 07/11/05 05:04 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

"The body's systems are always silent unless in disease. Thus, thought is a disease of mind."

- Aleister Crowley (paraphrase)


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peace, pot, and microdot!


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Offlineeve69
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Re: Thinking Mind [Re: Sinbad]
    #4392999 - 07/11/05 05:26 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Sinbad said:To summarize, dualistic mind is serverly flawed becuase it is limited to the attitudes of liking, disliking and feeling indifferent. It hopes and fears, accepts and rejects, and thus it suffers.




Sounds like the 4 Noble Truths. "This is suffering; this is the origin of suffering; this is the cessation of suffering; this is the way leading to the cessation of suffering." [Samyutta Nikaya, LVI, 31] http://www.buddhanet.net/4noble.htm

What you wrote is all cool as a perception of attachment and aversion leading to hate and love and resulting frustration and suffering. Buddha called all that chain of causation - the 12 links of dependent arising. He posits however that preceeding feeling is consciousness itself. Therefore consciousness is the source of these attachments and aversions. He formulates the path as the path of cessation of consciousness.

Personally I have never been fond of the translations of the Buddha's teachings. Because mere cessation of consciousness is no fun, and it may be escape from the wheel of ups and downs but it's no reward, and no incentive to live the 8-fold way. I mean why live a certain way just to cease? Better to live for today.

So there must have been more meaning to nirvana than mere extinction. Of course if one considers the meaning of yoga in Patanjali's words, "Yoga citta vritti nirodaha," then one can see that the state of union is the cessation of the tendencies of the mind. This is not extinction but mere cessation of the thought forms or waves of thought. The point being that unity is obtained when the surfacy mind ceases and the deep mind surfaces.

And so I have focused on the Vajrayana Tantra version of Buddha's thought, which is how the Buddha taught yoga.

I prefer the conceptuality of a rainbow body arising from the remnants of the exhaustion of ones karma through trekcho and tsogel practice. Where one looks at all that arises as a spontaneous manifestation of dependency from the void clear light of awareness. The path being to let all things arise and also subside of themselves without interference.

It's really the difference between frameworks of Classical physics versus Quantum. In classical frames of reference you have a cause and effect, or attachment and aversion. But in quantum Unified Field models one has instead the spontaneous virtual fluctuations in the vacuum state of the Unified Field. Prions binding in various flavors and directions, ie., a spontaneous spiraling self reference self contained by its own nature as the ground of all things. In which case all that arises arises for pure joy and bliss. Self experience.

Life is the Dakini dancing to her own tune. That is, all of life is the masterful jam of the Creator. The real problem is not attachment and aversion, but lack of means for experiencing the bliss and clear light which is the mirror of our natural pristine Buddha awareness. The real problem is the obscuration of our reflective and clear light nature which is ever free of all duality.

That's the real problem.


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...or something







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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Thinking Mind [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4393024 - 07/11/05 05:34 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

I'm not mad at all red, its fine. The first sentence is not a poem, the second sentence, is a rhetorical question with a more than obvious answer. I think the problem may be that i tried to be more simplistic and less complicated in expression, so as to cut down on the possibility of erroneous intellectualism's (mental constipation), and to increase the overall clarity and freshness in communication.

Indifference is a matter of dullness, because the mind and senses, due to the force of habitual tendencies, close down and slide into a state of sleepiness and non-action, when distractedly disinterested and disconnected from sense impressions, which one can easily mistake for calm meditation. But this is a mistake, ad meditation requires awareness and mindfulness to function. Perhaps this is why you took umbrage?

As you, and most people know, karma means action, actions generate causes. Whether I'm talking about Hinduism, Buddhism, or whatever it doesn't matter, most people are pretty aware of the meaning. I was using no particular frame of reference at the time.

All karma is connected to dualistic mind. How the dualistic mind functions is described in great detail within the Abhidharma,( which i know you have read to some extent). The Abhidharma describes the conceptual minds different way of operating, in terms of primary mind, and the subsidiary fifty-one mental events, all the various ways in which dualistic mind becomes involved in experience Primary mind simply means consciousness that is conceptual. Sense impressions theme-selves are not conceptual.

When hearing, seeing, smelling, tasting, or noticing texture, we are not engaging in conceptual thought. it is only when the primary mind, consciousness, directs attention to one of these sense impressions and starts to evaluate and judge that it becomes conceptual.

Anyway I'm not going into anymore detail, it was not my intention to go that way with this post due to the avenue of complications, which is why i did not include, the three roots of samsara, and the resulting complicated explanation. I would be here typing for days if it went that way. Best to keep it simple, so everyone canunderstand easily, without having to do much thinking :lol:.

To summarize again, if you want to be free of suffering, you need to be free from thinking mind. If you want to be free from disturbing emotions, you need to be free from thinking. If you want to be free from the myriad of deluded experiences, you need to be free from dualistic, thinking mind.


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Edited by Sinbad (07/12/05 12:46 PM)


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Thinking Mind [Re: eve69]
    #4393075 - 07/11/05 05:54 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

The first link specificy points to Ignorance of the true nature of reality, as the primary cause of conciossness and all preceeding manifestaions. But the Therevadans, and other Hinayanists intepret that to mean that the cessasion of concioussness IS enlightnement. I agree with you that this point is somewhat incorrect. But this is in mno way to be confused as the Buddhas view at all, its only an interpretation. Cessastion, to me, is just what it says, a state of cessastion, where there is no suffering, no happines, no thought, no movement, no senses. To me this is pointless, and funnily enough, sensless :lol:.

I agree with you on most everything that you said, and further point out that its hardly ever the teachings that it mistaken, its usually always the interpretation that slightly misses the real meaning.

In my view, cessastion of concious-ness is not that good, what we really need is to liberate our dualistic mind with all its tendencies. This does not mean that we cease to function, at all!

To summerize, i agree with you. Although Im not too sure about the physics. :wink:


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Edited by Sinbad (07/12/05 12:45 PM)


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: Thinking Mind [Re: Sinbad]
    #4393240 - 07/11/05 07:09 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

sometimes i hear people talk about "attachment" as attachment to objects, which generates like & dislike.

other times i hear people talk about attachment as attachment to the like & dislike themselves. i think i read this idea in one of jacquescousteau's posts.

also i would say that acting and power to act is a good thing; you can do more of what you want the greater your ability to act. you have more freedom.

i believe the first criticism is wrong and the second is right. if you ask me a person is more alive the more immersed they are in the world, the more feelings they feel, the more wants and desires they have. nonattachment of the first kind seems to me to be a result of fear: fear of taking risks, of dependence, of being vulnerable; of opening up to the world; what's wrong with these things? they make you more connected IMO. the second criticism seems like the opposite of giving in to fear.


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"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Thinking Mind [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4393265 - 07/11/05 07:25 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Thoreau said:
I went to the woods because I wished to live deliberately, to front only the essential facts of life, and see if I could not learn what it had to teach, and not, when I came to die, discover that I had not lived.

I did not wish to live what was not life, living is so dear; nor did I wish to practise resignation, unless it was quite necessary.

I wanted to live deep and suck out all the marrow of life, to live so sturdily and Spartan- like as to put to rout all that was not life, to cut a broad swath and shave close, to drive life into a corner, and reduce it to its lowest terms, and, if it proved to be mean, why then to get the whole and genuine meanness of it, and publish its meanness to the world; or if it were sublime, to know it by experience, and be able to give a true account of it in my next excursion.




:bow:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Thinking Mind [Re: Sinbad]
    #4393805 - 07/11/05 10:20 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

this excellent reference which you made last week
( http://www.nyingma.com/dzogchen1.htm )
should help you to understand that thinking is not evil but natural.

the association process is magic itself!
a wonder to observe.

- by the way, the usual interpretation of Karma is really not useful:
Note that most people are deeply in sangsara, so the usual interpretation misses completely at helping. you have to dig deeper to gain any benefit of observing karma, and steer clear of superstition, another fault of majority comprehension.

as for duality, it is not endemic to thinking, but to separating.
both may run together but you have to call a spade a spade and let the body and mind be in their natural beautiful way.


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Thinking Mind [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4394672 - 07/12/05 03:11 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Where did i say that thoughts were evil?  :what:

Thought are perfectly natural. Discursive thinking however is the habitual tendency which leads us to the distraction of duality. Thoughts are totally innocent, thay are just our natural energy manifesting, however thinking about the thoughts is the ingrained habitual pattern that we have got ourselves stuck in, and there is no real freedom in this pattern at all. To liberate this process, is to cut samsara at the root.

Dualistic mind, is the cause of suffering. To want to continue thinking and still be free of samsara is impossible. To remain attached to conceptual thinking and still arrive at liberation is impossible. To want to stop being hungry and yet refuse to eat creates an impossible situation does'nt it?

BTW, The usual interpretation of karma is very useful.


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Edited by Sinbad (07/12/05 12:33 PM)


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