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InvisibleHolydiver
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Just when you thought they were potent enough...
    #4387217 - 07/09/05 03:44 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Bluhoney, Agar and possibly a few others (sorry if I forgot your name) mentioned the addition of bloodmeal to horse poo.  Whelp, I tried it out.  1/4 cup of bloodmeal dissolved in a bucket of water, and approx 7 lbs. poo hydrated in this water.  Obviously the bloodmeal permeated the poo, because it reeked of it.  Seems to me this is the best way to get the bloodmeal delivered evenly throughout the manure, or so that's my idea.

Dark, DARK blue fruits.  I don't believe personally that bluing determines potency (yet), but some friends tested these and gave them two thumbs up, even beyond typical h/poo cubes.  I can't verify this report myself as I haven't tried them, but I trust their word on it.

It seems the extra N takes h/poo potency to the next level.  :mushroom2:

Try it out and let me know what you guys think.


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To find a place to live between the negatives and positives.

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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: Just when you thought they were potent enough... [Re: Holydiver]
    #4387230 - 07/09/05 03:51 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Well, I always add worm castings (10ish%), very high in N...not as high as bloodmeal I think, I thought agar said it wasnt that great to add though?...he did however mention Kelp Meal to increase potency..may want to try that out as well. I havnt done enough growing on straight h-poo, only a few tubs havnt had any castings added, but no potency tests between the two were done, they ended up mixed...I do know that my fruits are some damn potent shit from many who have had many shrooms...they often end up taking "to many"..potency being to strong was a problem I didnt really hear on whole grains, everyone enjoyed them, but almost no complaints of to strong.

I think I have some of this around (is it bloodmeal or bonemeal, and is there a difference? I have one..) but have been afraid I'd add to much N, with the WC too...someday I'll give it a go though.


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"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
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InvisibleLeftyBurnz
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Re: Just when you thought they were potent enough... [Re: Holydiver]
    #4387231 - 07/09/05 03:51 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

would bone meal be beneficial in the same way? ive got a big bag of it that i never use.


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Invisiblebackupwards2
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Registered: 06/23/05
Posts: 180
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Re: Just when you thought they were potent enough... [Re: Holydiver]
    #4387236 - 07/09/05 03:52 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

will do on this next batch of poo, at least on a couple of casings worth. give you a report back when they are done.
that 7 lbs of poo was dry weight? then just add the 1/4 cup of bm to the water and soak the poo.
thanks for the heads up diver. lets hope it does increase the potency.

peace


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If you are not sure what you are doing STOP and go read some on what you are trying to do.

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InvisibleHolydiver
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Re: Just when you thought they were potent enough... [Re: scatmanrav]
    #4387244 - 07/09/05 03:58 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Both are organic fertilizers, but bloodmeal (red colored powder, reeks to high hell) is high in N, and should be used sparingly (i.e. dilute a very small volume in water).  Bone meal is whitish/grey and made from ground up bones or something and used to up the phosphorus in gardens I believe, whatever that accomplishes.

It's worth a try guys, but like I said can't personally vouch for the potency.  I do know one thing for sure, it didn't do any harm to the fruitbodies from visual appearance, heh.  They looked really healthy.  This is new territory for me, it was an experiment.

That's the thing Scatmanrav, it's not like we really need to get any more potent that poo already was, ha.  At the rate things are going, a strong cube dose will be 1-2G.  :cool:

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InvisibleHolydiver
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Re: Just when you thought they were potent enough... [Re: backupwards2]
    #4387248 - 07/09/05 04:00 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Hey backupwards2, it weighed 7 LBS. after hydrated. It may have been a bit much BM, a couple tablespoons would probably do the trick. Not sure though either way.

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Invisiblebackupwards2
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Re: Just when you thought they were potent enough... [Re: Holydiver]
    #4387259 - 07/09/05 04:05 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

thanks diver, will try a little with bm and compare to the same strain on just straight poo. both in the same fc so there are not enviro differences. we shall see what happens in about 2 weeks or so. let ya know
peace


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If you are not sure what you are doing STOP and go read some on what you are trying to do.

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InvisibleLeftyBurnz
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Re: Just when you thought they were potent enough... [Re: backupwards2]
    #4387264 - 07/09/05 04:07 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

yeah ill try out the bone meal and see what happens. prolly wont hear anything from that for a few weeks or so.


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InvisibleHolydiver
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Re: Just when you thought they were potent enough... [Re: backupwards2]
    #4387266 - 07/09/05 04:09 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Great, keep us posted. Just make sure you get it in the manure correctly, like through the water as how I did it, or something similar.

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InvisibleLeftyBurnz
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Re: Just when you thought they were potent enough... [Re: Holydiver]
    #4387300 - 07/09/05 04:22 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

yeah ill prolly soak the poo in the bonemeal water for a day or so, like you did. i just found that i have a bag of magnesium sulfate too, would this be worth anything or no?


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Invisiblebackupwards2
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Re: Just when you thought they were potent enough... [Re: Holydiver]
    #4387301 - 07/09/05 04:22 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

yeah gonna try it just like you did. hydrate the poo in water mixed with bm. maybe i will do a casing with bone meal as well.
should be just a couple of weeks or sooner cause everything is ready. just have to mix up the bm solutions and soak the poo. will spawn them tomarrow morning.
i am also gonna try a casing with unpasturized poo. so many have been reporting good luck with it, so gonna try it out. even though i don't find it to be too much work to pasturize. after 2 runs of pasturizing i have got my stove figured out as to where to turn it on for the temp range. but if i could get away without past. then all the better.
peace


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If you are not sure what you are doing STOP and go read some on what you are trying to do.

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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: Just when you thought they were potent enough... [Re: backupwards2]
    #4387317 - 07/09/05 04:27 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Very true man, I realy dont need them any more potent....but you know how some people like that potency :smile:


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"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay

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Invisiblebackupwards2
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Registered: 06/23/05
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Re: Just when you thought they were potent enough... [Re: scatmanrav]
    #4387332 - 07/09/05 04:32 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

yeah like the potency of poo so far, they go alot further for sure. would love to increase them even further if it is possible. when a person is used to eating 7-8 g's and then only has to eat 3 g's to get the same effect all the better. even more potency means maybe we will only have to munch a g or two.
thats getting to a level 3-4, so wouldn't it be awesome to munch a g and hit a 3-4 or maybe even a 5.
peace


--------------------
If you are not sure what you are doing STOP and go read some on what you are trying to do.

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OfflineKalix
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Registered: 03/20/05
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Re: Just when you thought they were potent enough... [Re: backupwards2]
    #4387340 - 07/09/05 04:37 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

So.. How much Bloodmeal would I use for a 2 quart casing? Like 2g or something?


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My Unitarian Jihad Name is: The Shotgun of Sweet Reason

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OfflineHippieChick
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Re: Just when you thought they were potent enough... [Re: backupwards2]
    #4387833 - 07/09/05 07:51 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

It's very possible. Compost is supposed to have 4 times the nutrients as poo. Can you imagine those shrooms. The difference could make poo shrooms look like BRF shrooms again. That's just scary,lol.

Peace,Love,Happiness and Harmony.
:heart: Hippie Chick  :mushroom2:


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Peace,Love and Happiness
:heart: HC :mushroom2:

Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose..............

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http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5545848#5545848

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Invisiblethemills
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Re: Just when you thought they were potent enough... [Re: HippieChick]
    #4387852 - 07/09/05 07:58 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Although I dont have the space now. I have always wanted to go the way of making my own compost as substrate. It seems like it would be the ultimate substrate for potency.


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There are 2 possible outcomes: If the result confirms the hypothesis, then you've made a measurement. If the result is contrary to the hypothesis, then you've made a discovery.
-Enrico Fermi
_________________________________________________________________________________________________
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Invisibleagar
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Re: Just when you thought they were potent enough... [Re: themills]
    #4388100 - 07/09/05 09:35 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

themills said:
Although I dont have the space now. I have always wanted to go the way of making my own compost as substrate. It seems like it would be the ultimate substrate for potency.









Best cheap thing is to drive some metal fence posts in the ground, in an area with GOOd drainage. Then - surround posts with some kind of fencing wire & provision for a gate - so you can get at it - with a garden fork - or pitch fork. Have it - where you can reach it - with a garden hose.

It takes a lot of bulk, to get a pile big enough to heat up RIGHT.

About 10 wheat straw bales & a half (or more) pickup truck load of fairly fresh manure (horse - cow), & some gypsum will get one started. Add whatever other good things you can find, like spent brewers grain, fruit/vegitable waste, coffee grounds, hot air popped pop corn, on & on.

It is a lot of work, but one good pile will keep you in substrate FOREVER, if you nurse it along.

Now is the perfect time of year to do one.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The preparation of mushroom compost is usually done in two stages. The breakdown of raw ingredients begins in Phase I. Phase I is characterized by building the raw ingredients into long rectangular piles approximately 2 m high called "ricks" or "windrows". These stacks are then periodically turned, watered, and formed. This phase is essentially a microbiological process resulting in release of energy and heat.

To favor the development of relatively high temperatures, aerobic conditions are maintained by aerating the compost during repeated mixing or turning. Temperature fluctuations during this phase are paralleled by similar changes in the numbers of thermophilic (heat loving) bacteria. These organisms start to grow rapidly and release energy in the form of heat. Thermogenesis by microorganisms initiates the heating of Phase I and also produces heat in Phase II.

The internal temperature of a compost pile can reach up to 80oC. Traditional Phase I composting lasts from 7 to 14 days depending on the condition of the material at the start and its characteristics at each turn. It is considered complete when the raw ingredients have become pliable and are capable of holding water. The odor of ammonia should be sharp, and the color of the compost is dark-brown in color, indicating caramelization and browning reactions have occurred.

It is primarily the control of the environment that distinguishes Phase II from Phase I. Typically, compost is loaded into wooden trays, which are stacked, and then placed in specially designed rooms where the environmental conditions can be manipulated. Phase II is commonly referred to as peak-heating and may be initiated by steam. Pasteurization is accomplished early in the Phase II operation and is necessary to kill many insects, nematodes, and other pests or pathogens that may be present in the compost.

Pasteurization requires air and compost temperatures of 66oC for a minimum of 2 hours. Once pasteurization is accomplished, cool air is introduced into the Phase II room to assure adequate oxygen, and to help dissipate ammonia. An important function of Phase II microbes that survive the pasteurization process is the conversion of residual ammonia into protein. Because ammonia is lethal to the mushroom mycelium, it must be removed by the end of Phase II.

A stage is reached when the available food supplies for organisms inhabiting the compost become quite limiting, hence their activity decreases. The substrate is now set for spawning, and the substrate is said to be 'selective' for the growth of mushrooms. Once the odor of ammonia is no longer present, Phase II is over and the compost temperature can be dropped to 24oC for the addition of any type grain spawn. Completed compost should have a C/N ratio of around 17 to 1, with N in the area of 2.6.

Initially raw compost will have an alkaline pH. When mature and ready for inoculation the pH should be between 7.0 and 8.0. As the mushroom and mycelium grows there will be a drop of pH from the excreted metabolites until the pH reaches 5.0-5.5 at which time mushroom production will generally cease.

Optimal cubensis compost has this finished makeup: carbon / nitrogen ratio <17:1, nitrogen 2.6%, phosphorus 0.2-05%, potassium 1.5-2.5%, calcium 1.5-2.5%, available boron <2 ppm, available ammonium <10 ppm, soluble salts 3.0-5 OdS/m.

I. Guidelines for calculating pre/compost nitrogen (N) content:
Calculate the starting N content of pile to be 1.5 to 1.7% before composting. The starting N for a synthetic compost formulas may be slightly higher than the wheat straw horse manure formulas. The percent N will increase throughout Phase I composting and Phase II and at spawning time the N content of the compost should be 2.1-2.6 %.

Knowing the N and % moisture of the bulk ingredients and supplements will increase the accuracy of the calculated and finished nitrogen content. If supplements are added by volume, occasionally weigh volume added to confirm calculated formula.

At the end of Phase I and again at the end of Phase II, compost may be analyzed for N, ammonia, ash and moisture. It is important to take a representative samples, several small handfuls thoroughly mixed. When taking a sample do not shake the compost.

II. Examples of Mushroom Compost Formulas

Horse manure pile
Ingredients Wet Wt. Dry Wt. %N Tons N
Horse manure 80 T 50 T 1.2% 0.6 T
Poultry manure 7.5 T 6.0 T 4 % 0.24 T
Brewers Grains 2.5 T 2.5 T 4 % 0.1 T
Gypsum 1.25 T 1.25 T 0 0
59.75 T 0.94 ? 59.75 = 1.57%


Synthetic pile
Ingredients Wet Wt. Dry Wt. %N Tons N
Hay 15 T 12.8 T 2.0 % 0.26 T
Cobs 15 T 12.8 T 0.3 % 0.04 T
Poultry manure 3.8 T 2.4 T 4 % 0.09 T
NH4NO3 0.3 T 0.3 T 32% 0.10 T
Potash 0.3 T 0.3 T 0.0 0.00
Gypsum 0.6 T 0.6 T 0.0 0.00
29.2 T 0.49 ? 29.2 = 1.68%


Horse manure-synthetic blend
Ingredients Wet Wt. Dry Wt. %N Tons N
Horse manure 15 T 10.5 T 1.2% 0.13
Hay 7.5 T 6.3 T 1.1% 0.07
Corn Cobs 7.5 T 6.4 T 0.3% 0.02
Brewer's grains 3.0 T 3.0 T 4.0% 0.12
Poultry manure 2.0 T 2.0 T 4.5% 0.09
Urea 0.1 T 0.1 T 44.0% 0.06
Potash 0.2 T 0.2 T 0.0% 0.00
Gypsum 1.0 T 1.0 T 0.0% 0.00
29.5 0.49 ? 29.5 = 1.66%

III. Suggested watering procedures during composting:

Add as much water as possible without run off during pre-wet conditioning or during the first two turns. Avoid adding too much water early during Phase I, always be able to control moisture. Add only enough during next turn or turns to wet dry spots. Bring up compost moisture to desired water content by adequate watering just before filling.

During pre-wet it is advisable to flip or turn the compost every day. After the rick or pile is built, the compost should be turn every other day unless pile temperatures have not peaked.

IV. Changes in organic matter, carbohydrates and nitrogen during mushroom composting.

Soluble carbohydrates are simply adsorbed by the micro-organisms and it is converted into new living matter or provides energy for the cells. As these micro-organism grow energy in the form of heat is released.

As the pile heats to temperature above 150o F the activities occurring within the pile change from biological to chemical reactions. It is at these higher temperatures that carmelization takes place. Carmelization is the process where water is eliminated from the carbohydrates and carbon is concentrated. This process can be compared to boiling sap down to make maple sugar.

V. Phase I is considered complete when as soon as the raw ingredients become pliable and are capable of holding water, the odor of ammonia is sharp and the dark brown color indicates carmelization and browning reactions have occurred.

Moisture content at filling should be 70-73%. Water should drip from compost squeezed in the hand. But a good rule of thumb to follow is: the longer, greener or more coarse the compost then more moisture it can take. The shorter, more mature or dense the compost the less water it should have.

The shorter or wetter the compost, the more loosely it should be filled into the beds or trays. The longer or greener the compost, the more it can be firmed into the beds. Attempt to fill uniformly in both depth and compaction. Edges or sideboards should be packed slightly tighter, whereas the center should remain looser.

VI. Phase II composting has two objectives:

Pasteurization - elimination of undesirable insect pest, microbes and pathogens.

Conditioning - Creation of specific food for the mushroom and creating a selective and suppressive compost to favor the growth of the mushroom.

VII. Insure adequate ventilation during Phase II. When in doubt, ventilate. A flame should be burn at all times.

The higher the nitrogen content of compost, the greener the compost or the more dry weight at filling time, the greater the ventilation required. When outside temperature is high as in summer or early fall, more ventilation is required than when Phase II occurs during the cold winter weather. This is especially important when the grower does not have a forced air ventilation system.

VIII. During Phase II keep compost in the temperature range where microorganisms grow best (115-140o F).

Microbes convert ammonia and ammonia containing salts into protein and other nitrogen compounds the mushroom uses for food. The growth of these microbes depends on having the available food, adequate moisture, sufficient oxygen and suitable temperature. A shortage of one of these requirements will limit growth and often results in incomplete conditioning.

IX. Heat up (pasteurization) for insect kill early in Phase II (perhaps 1-4 days after filling) so as to avoid a second heating cycle of the compost.

A good indication that the compost is ready to pasteurized, is the subsiding of microbial activity, which is indicated by a decrease in compost temperature at the same air temperature.

X. After pasteurization slowly lower compost through the temperature ranges of the microorganisms. A general rule is to lower compost temperature no more than 4-5o F. per day.

Provided that enough food, water and oxygen the microbes will continue to grow. Different microbes use different compounds and grow at different temperatures. Therefore it is important to make sure all areas of the beds and room gradually drop through all temperatures ranges.

Thermophillic fungi grow at lower temperatures and are important because they are able to grow into denser areas of compost.

XI. Composting is considered compete when no trace of ammonia odor can be detected and the compost has a uniform flecking of white colonies of actinomycetes, called fire-fang. The N content on a dry wt. basis should be in the range of 2.0 to 2.6.

As the mushroom and mycelium grows there will be a drop of pH from the excreted metabolites until the pH reaches 5.0-5.5 at which time mushroom production will generally cease.


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OfflineAsianYumYum
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Re: Just when you thought they were potent enough... [Re: agar]
    #4388167 - 07/09/05 10:00 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

this is great stuff. i wonder if we could compile a comprehensive guide with all the options for high potency spawning to either poo or compost. this would be great to link up later, but for now, all the info here is great. don't have enough materials to start compost though so can someone link me to a semi-comprehensive guide to poo? i wanna get the best out of my first PF cakes, so i think ill try spawning them after their 3rd flush


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Hail to the King Baby

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Offlineoysterguy63
60's child

Registered: 04/08/05
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Re: Just when you thought they were potent enough... [Re: AsianYumYum]
    #4388220 - 07/09/05 10:19 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Seems readily available as well, at least on line. Is this commonly carried by Home Depot, Walmart, or Seed stores?


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Oysters...yuummmmm

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Offlinelemunhed
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Registered: 05/12/03
Posts: 775
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Re: Just when you thought they were potent enough... [Re: oysterguy63]
    #4389248 - 07/10/05 07:05 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Thx stamets. That is a retarded compost pile.... I could take over the world with that one. Maybe the universe....


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You're pompeius, aren't you? I'll make a pompeian of you unless you hold your toungue!

-Tiberius Claudius Nero

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