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Offlinetomk
King of OTD

Registered: 09/22/04
Posts: 1,559
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 9 months, 1 day
Catch-33
    #4382159 - 07/08/05 01:55 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Anyone who has any interest at all in listening to the best album of 2005 should be sure to check out meshuggahs new album, Catch-33. It's fucking ridiculously good. It's like they wanted to say "Fuck all you people making records today, (except robert fripp and squarepusher, and a few other in that league) let us show you how it is done, you bitches." This album is so good.

Do not go into it like you are listening to some stupid math metal album. Go into it like you are listening to the music of a beethoven or a schoenberg. Go into it expecting it to challenge you. It's so good.

I give it 2 1/2 / 4 stars.


--------------------
"I am eternally free"


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OfflineHarbinger
The Power of theRiff Compels Me

Registered: 08/12/03
Posts: 2,059
Loc: Far Away
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
Re: Catch-33 [Re: tomk]
    #4382380 - 07/08/05 02:56 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Yeah, I agree. Although I don't think of it as their best work, its pretty damn good. Definitely more elaborate use of the 8 string guitars than on "Nothing", although, I was saddened to hear very little of Fredrik Thordendals soloing. The extremely heavy rhythms make up for it though, I just can't help but bang my head to the entire thing.
It's definitely an album that needs to be listened to more than once to fully appreciate, not to mention start to finish as it is one long song. It's a solid release from a great band, and I'd recommend it to anyone looking for something fresh and different in the world of metal.


--------------------
Click the pic to hear some songs I've recorded.


:rockon:


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Offlinetomk
King of OTD

Registered: 09/22/04
Posts: 1,559
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 9 months, 1 day
Re: Catch-33 [Re: Harbinger]
    #4382432 - 07/08/05 03:09 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Meshuggah is not one of those bands that will just appeal to metal fans.

Fans of Warp Records, Tool, 70s prog rock, minimalism, and free jazz will all be blown away by this release. I just listened to this album again, it is so good. Anyone who says the quality of music has gone downhill since the 60s or 70s isn't looking very hard.


--------------------
"I am eternally free"


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OfflineTheCow
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Registered: 10/28/02
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Re: Catch-33 [Re: tomk]
    #4382633 - 07/08/05 04:00 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

tomk said:
Go into it like you are listening to the music of a beethoven or a schoenberg.  Go into it expecting it to challenge you.  It's so good.




HAHA
:laugh:


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OfflineHarbinger
The Power of theRiff Compels Me

Registered: 08/12/03
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Re: Catch-33 [Re: TheCow]
    #4383419 - 07/08/05 12:13 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

TheCow said:
Quote:

tomk said:
Go into it like you are listening to the music of a beethoven or a schoenberg.  Go into it expecting it to challenge you.  It's so good.




HAHA
:laugh:




Yeah, I don't really know about that statement either.


--------------------
Click the pic to hear some songs I've recorded.


:rockon:


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Offlinetomk
King of OTD

Registered: 09/22/04
Posts: 1,559
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Last seen: 9 months, 1 day
Re: Catch-33 [Re: Harbinger]
    #4384525 - 07/08/05 06:22 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Right, but you guys don't know as much about music as me.  :shrug: 

This stuff IS brilliant.  You can listen to it for form, etc, and it's all there.  Look.  It's a 44 minute or so sonata.  The end of Death is ... death serves as the end of the development section, the start of the next track is the recapitulation, with the return of the descending minor third, ascending second tremolo motif, and the end of Sum is a brilliantly effective coda and resolution.  Beethoven does soemthing similar to this in some of his symphonies (Compare the coda here to the coda of the first movement of the fifth symphony, or compare the effect between death is...death to the end of the development of the Waldstein sonata.)  Listen for the complex harmonies, and the way the theme continually returns in a varied form. 

I think this comparison is valid.  I say that as someone who's finished college music theory.  Look, I think some people are too attached to the past.  Was Beethoven absolutely brilliant?  Yes, of course.  But that doesn't mean no one else can reach those heights again.  Bartok did.  Fripp does.  Meshuggah does.  Tool does. 

Really, the most apt place to make a comparison is for musicians in similar circumstances.  Meshuggah has made 5 or 6 albums, maybe 20 hours of music with all the studio shit they don't release.  How does Catch-33 compare to Beethovens 20th hour of music is the relevant question?  (we could adjust for the fact that music was beethovens full time work while Meshuggah had day jobs for the start of their career.)  I'd venture to guess that Meshuggah has the sophistication of beethoven in similar circumstances.


--------------------
"I am eternally free"


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OfflineTheCow
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Re: Catch-33 [Re: tomk]
    #4384624 - 07/08/05 06:52 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Well I downloaded the album. And I must say, I think you are seeing way too much into it. I will say it is more complicated then a tool album. So saying that tool is anywhere near the brilliance of Beethoven is absurd to me. I mean, I could play literally every tool song on an electric, and Ive been playing guitar for one year. In terms of your comparison to Beethoven's fifth, I just dont see it. This album sounds fairly average to me. Nothing particularly brilliant about it, but mr. apparently knows more about music then me, please go into detail about the music theory, as Id love to hear a breakdown of the comparisons.


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OfflineTheCow
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Re: Catch-33 [Re: TheCow]
    #4384646 - 07/08/05 07:06 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

I'm actualy very unimpressed with this album. I just listened to the first song over again, it is so basic. Quite a boring song overall. Ill give the other ones a new listen in a little bit.


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Offlinetomk
King of OTD

Registered: 09/22/04
Posts: 1,559
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Re: Catch-33 [Re: TheCow]
    #4384699 - 07/08/05 07:36 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

The entire album is one long song. Think of it that way, and try and listen for things like thematic development, recurring themes, cadential techniques, etc. Listening to just the first track is sort of like listening to the first minute of a mozart sonata and judging the whole based on that minute. The material in the first track doesn't pay off until later. You guys are wrong about this album it's fucking obscenely brilliant all the way through.


--------------------
"I am eternally free"


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OfflineHarbinger
The Power of theRiff Compels Me

Registered: 08/12/03
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Re: Catch-33 [Re: tomk]
    #4385342 - 07/08/05 11:31 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Well, I may not have as much knowledge of theory as you apparently say you do (and I'll leave it that because I don't feel like arguing about who has the more valid opinon because of their knowledge of theory),  but that is a pretty bold statement comparing this to Mozart and such.

I agree with you, this is a fantastic album. It does challenge the listener and is quite a journey from start to finish.  You can't just listen to the first few tracks and judge it because yes, it all does come together.  It's as if the entire cd is telling a story, much like Beethoven's work. 

But still, I just don't see it.  :shrug: I think you're giving it way more credit than it deserves.


--------------------
Click the pic to hear some songs I've recorded.


:rockon:


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Offlinegbhtrfv
journeyman
Registered: 02/09/04
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Re: Catch-33 [Re: Harbinger]
    #4385534 - 07/09/05 12:53 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

this is a brilliant album, like all other meshuggah releases.

i still can't stand the fact you're comparing them to mozart or beethovan. they were classical composers, which meshuggah aren't, and meshuggah aren't even tonal music for that matter. they're completely different so you i fail to see how you can draw a valid comparison.

back on track, i've listened to this album through and through, never partially, and i think it's damn good. they're emphasizing rhythm even more so than ever, and it's so damn groovin'.

and why are you giving it only 2.5 stars out of 4, if it's that damn brilliant? you wouldn't give mozart 2.5 stars would you?


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Offlinetomk
King of OTD

Registered: 09/22/04
Posts: 1,559
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Re: Catch-33 [Re: gbhtrfv]
    #4386313 - 07/09/05 10:35 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Thanks for not challenging me. I would have won. I don't mean to be arrogant about it, but it's true.

I think the comparison to beethoven is a lot more apt then the one to mozart. Mozart was extremely prolific, and gave birth to compositions very quickly. Mozart was the last of an old style, and Beethoven was the beginning of a new one. Let's look at the situations Meshuggah and Beethoven were in. He composed slowly, building work up over time. This is the same as Meshuggah's creative process. Beethoven was often criticized by ignorant critics as being too aggressive, too difficult, too dissonant, with no understanding of harmony (for using more unusual harmonies), and rythmically incompetent (for using phrases that aren't all exactly 4 bars). Except for the fact that even the critics acknowledge Mesh's rythmic superiority, these criticisms are repeated for meshuggah. Beethoven also was critisized for breaking the mold with extremely long works that stretch farther then any before him (starting with symphony #3). Again, a very good similarity, as both I and Catch-33 are groundbreaking in both the length and the thematic development they include in that length. Another similarity is structural ambiguity. Often, you cannot tell the form of a Beethoven piece until near the end because it is ambiguous between, say binary and sonata form, or something. Likewise, you can't really make out the form of Catch-33 until the end, because until the end you don't have enough information to tell if it's more of a sonata type form or a theme and variations type form. I'm not saying there are not differences between the composers. Obviously, they have different aims, and there are many noticable differences. However, to me, the similarities, including that they were behemoths on their instruments, that they broke ground by moving in a more experimental, dissonant, harsher direction while also expanding the use of form to grow these dissonant harmonies into complex beasts of pieces, and shit like that indicate to me that the heart of what makes beethoven great and the heart of what makes meshuggah great is much the same, and so a comparison is more apt then many would think. I can draw a valid comparison because I know the way Meshuggah came out of the musical scene of their time, and the way beethoven did too, and then say, "Look, they both reacted the same way to their musical scene, going a more dissonant aggressive direction with longer pieces, a more intuitive approach to melody and harmony, more expressiveness, and more virtuosity, indicating a kindred spirit." Does this mean Beethoven sounds like Meshuggah? No. It does mean that if Beethovens soul was reborn in Umea Sweden, onto the metal scene there, he would of pushed that scene in the same direction meshuggah has.

I do not think meshuggah yet compares to Beethovens late works. However, I don't think they have to for the comparison to be valid. They haven't been making music as long as he had by that stage.

All I'm saying is there are still people making music who are every bit as brilliant as the guys who we consider the greats. Stupid rich white men drill it into our heads that the music former rich white men listened to was best. In actuality, their stuff is top notch, but much of the stuff they put down is top notch as well. It does not detract from Beethovens greatness to say meshuggah or Miles Davis works at the same level. But a person who was insecure about their opinions (perhaps because they don't know enough music to justify an opinion one way or the other, or perhaps because they relied on the opinions of authorities) would take such a claim as an attack on beethoven when it is not one.

You can see this most clearly in the case of Jazz musicians and composers of IDM. Obviously, composers like Thelonious Monk, John Coltrane, Louis Armstrong, Miles Davis, Sun Ra, etc are at the absolute top of music making. To say Miles Davis and Beethoven tapped into creativity at the same level is not to take away from either of them. Likewise with IDM. Squarepusher, Aphex twin, etc, these guys (especially squarepusher) are the pinnicle of music. To say Aphex Twin is as good as beethoven isn't to shit on beethovens head. It's to shit on the head of the 300 years of stupid white men who proclaimed beethoven the best without really engaging (or having the cognitive ability to engage) the music they were comparing it too.


--------------------
"I am eternally free"


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OfflineHarbinger
The Power of theRiff Compels Me

Registered: 08/12/03
Posts: 2,059
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Re: Catch-33 [Re: tomk]
    #4386679 - 07/09/05 01:32 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Fair enough. I see what you're saying a little bit more clearly now.


--------------------
Click the pic to hear some songs I've recorded.


:rockon:


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OfflineGrav
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Registered: 02/06/02
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Re: Catch-33 [Re: Harbinger]
    #4387395 - 07/09/05 06:53 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Catch-33 is ferocious, psychological, and primal.
one of my fav tracks is "Shed"... what a crazy fluid beat

Meshuggah is an interesting group...

whenever i listen to one of their albums i feel like im being drawn into the thundering relentless spirit of the animal. the vocals are always paying homage to reality and demonizing people that try to control it.

i think their sound is a beautiful response to our times.


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OfflineTheCow
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Registered: 10/28/02
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Re: Catch-33 [Re: tomk]
    #4387618 - 07/09/05 08:21 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

tomk said:
Thanks for not challenging me. I would have won. I don't mean to be arrogant about it, but it's true.

I think the comparison to beethoven is a lot more apt then the one to mozart. Mozart was extremely prolific, and gave birth to compositions very quickly. Mozart was the last of an old style, and Beethoven was the beginning of a new one. Let's look at the situations Meshuggah and Beethoven were in. He composed slowly, building work up over time. This is the same as Meshuggah's creative process. Beethoven was often criticized by ignorant critics as being too aggressive, too difficult, too dissonant, with no understanding of harmony (for using more unusual harmonies), and rythmically incompetent (for using phrases that aren't all exactly 4 bars). Except for the fact that even the critics acknowledge Mesh's rythmic superiority, these criticisms are repeated for meshuggah. Beethoven also was critisized for breaking the mold with extremely long works that stretch farther then any before him (starting with symphony #3). Again, a very good similarity, as both I and Catch-33 are groundbreaking in both the length and the thematic development they include in that length. Another similarity is structural ambiguity. Often, you cannot tell the form of a Beethoven piece until near the end because it is ambiguous between, say binary and sonata form, or something. Likewise, you can't really make out the form of Catch-33 until the end, because until the end you don't have enough information to tell if it's more of a sonata type form or a theme and variations type form. I'm not saying there are not differences between the composers. Obviously, they have different aims, and there are many noticable differences. However, to me, the similarities, including that they were behemoths on their instruments, that they broke ground by moving in a more experimental, dissonant, harsher direction while also expanding the use of form to grow these dissonant harmonies into complex beasts of pieces, and shit like that indicate to me that the heart of what makes beethoven great and the heart of what makes meshuggah great is much the same, and so a comparison is more apt then many would think. I can draw a valid comparison because I know the way Meshuggah came out of the musical scene of their time, and the way beethoven did too, and then say, "Look, they both reacted the same way to their musical scene, going a more dissonant aggressive direction with longer pieces, a more intuitive approach to melody and harmony, more expressiveness, and more virtuosity, indicating a kindred spirit." Does this mean Beethoven sounds like Meshuggah? No. It does mean that if Beethovens soul was reborn in Umea Sweden, onto the metal scene there, he would of pushed that scene in the same direction meshuggah has.

I do not think meshuggah yet compares to Beethovens late works. However, I don't think they have to for the comparison to be valid. They haven't been making music as long as he had by that stage.

All I'm saying is there are still people making music who are every bit as brilliant as the guys who we consider the greats. Stupid rich white men drill it into our heads that the music former rich white men listened to was best. In actuality, their stuff is top notch, but much of the stuff they put down is top notch as well. It does not detract from Beethovens greatness to say meshuggah or Miles Davis works at the same level. But a person who was insecure about their opinions (perhaps because they don't know enough music to justify an opinion one way or the other, or perhaps because they relied on the opinions of authorities) would take such a claim as an attack on beethoven when it is not one.

You can see this most clearly in the case of Jazz musicians and composers of IDM. Obviously, composers like Thelonious Monk, John Coltrane, Louis Armstrong, Miles Davis, Sun Ra, etc are at the absolute top of music making. To say Miles Davis and Beethoven tapped into creativity at the same level is not to take away from either of them. Likewise with IDM. Squarepusher, Aphex twin, etc, these guys (especially squarepusher) are the pinnicle of music. To say Aphex Twin is as good as beethoven isn't to shit on beethovens head. It's to shit on the head of the 300 years of stupid white men who proclaimed beethoven the best without really engaging (or having the cognitive ability to engage) the music they were comparing it too.



I still dont see how that proves or even explains anything. All you have said, is that critics didnt much like either of them, they had long pieces, and tried new dissonant styles of muisc. Alright, interesting, so if I banged on a piano with random key changes, no rhythm, then I could be compared to Beethoven? Mess. music doesnt strike me as particularly dissonant, I havent really bothered to try and figure out the chord changes, but It doesnt strike me as all that interesting. I would still like an explanation on how musically they are similar, or how Mess. is anywhere near as profound. Give me a breakdown, of how Beethoven using mutliple melody voices in new arrangements, is similar to Mess's guitar/bass interplay. Frankly I am not directly challenging you, but I would be interested to hear a nice breakdown from a music major.


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Offlinetomk
King of OTD

Registered: 09/22/04
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Re: Catch-33 [Re: TheCow]
    #4387724 - 07/09/05 09:06 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

If that is all you got from what I wrote, I'm afraid you might fall under the catagory of not really having the cognitive ability to judge this sort of thing. I did not just say they had long pieces. I said they had long pieces that were structurally, harmonically, and melodically innovative while demonstrating complete technical mastery. The particulars of the notes being different do not so much matter.

If you litsen to meshuggah you will find that melodically, their music is often in the octotonic scale. (This scale is present in Messian, for example, and goes C-D-Eb-F-F#-G#-A-B or some permutation thereof.) Beethoven didn't use this scale. This doesn't mean they can't be similar innovators. I'm claiming they are similar in their innovations, you seem to think I am claiming they are similar in the music they wrote note for note. Obviously, I'm not.


--------------------
"I am eternally free"


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OfflineRedstorm
Prince of Bugs
Male

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Re: Catch-33 [Re: tomk]
    #4387828 - 07/09/05 09:49 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

You do realize that just b/c you know the technical aspects of music, it makes your tastes no more valid that anyone else's.


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Offlinefaslimy
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Re: Catch-33 [Re: tomk]
    #4388578 - 07/10/05 01:56 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

listening to it now, its pretty damn good. Best i've heard from them so far.

In Death - holy shit this is some well written, effective music


Edited by faslimy (07/10/05 04:04 AM)


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OfflineTheCow
Stranger

Registered: 10/28/02
Posts: 4,790
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Re: Catch-33 [Re: tomk]
    #4388582 - 07/10/05 01:57 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

tomk said:
If that is all you got from what I wrote, I'm afraid you might fall under the catagory of not really having the cognitive ability to judge this sort of thing.



Ha, yea I'm sure it was tough majoring in music...
You got quite defensive, I mostly just wanted a more interesting comparison including more bits of muisc theory.


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Offlinetomk
King of OTD

Registered: 09/22/04
Posts: 1,559
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 9 months, 1 day
Re: Catch-33 [Re: Redstorm]
    #4389370 - 07/10/05 11:03 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
You do realize that just b/c you know the technical aspects of music, it makes your tastes no more valid that anyone else's.




I disagree. I think it's absolutely ridiculous to think someone with no working knowledge of how music works has as valid an opinion about music as someone who knows whats going on.

But even if you are right about this, knowing more about the cultural situations various musicians were in combined with a knowledge of the musical scenes they come out of and the theory to be able to sum up what their innovations were makes me more competent to make claims like "musician X is like band Y." then some guy who can just play stairway to heaven on his guitar. I'm making both claims, but the debate is focused on the second one, and expertise certainly makes an opinion of the second type more valid.


--------------------
"I am eternally free"


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