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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Education
    #4381645 - 07/07/05 11:12 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

My wife just finished a masters degree tonight. It is in special education. To us this is a big deal because of the pay increase. Is that all there is to higher education? Does it have intrinsic value apart from the money? Many educated people feel that people lacking a higher education also lack substance. They often get quite snooty about it. Does a higher education really mean anything? A friend of mine with a Phd said that it was merely a piece of paper. I tend to think that it only matters if you can apply it. If you cannot apply it, it is useless. My wife and I lacked college educations for the first 12 years of our marriage. I know for a fact that many so called "uneducated people" can take a Phd to school on many subjects...even that Phd's field. For instance: I taught myself to read Old English and Old Norse before ever setting foot in a University. Many medieval history instructors cannot read these languages. What is education and does it have value?


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Education [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4381796 - 07/08/05 12:10 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

What is education and does it have value?

Education, and the value placed on it, is what you want it to be.

If your passionate about a something, and enjoy learning about it, no paper in the world will make you happy if there is still more to learn.

In todays society your intelligence is graded on how many pieces of paper you have.

Not having those papers doesn't mean that your un-educated, just that you have no proof of your education.


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Invisibleorechron
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Re: Education [Re: niteowl]
    #4382261 - 07/08/05 02:22 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Just a piece of paper that helps you get more valuable pieces of paper.

That said, I want to get my doctorate. I love learning. The academic environment seems more suited for learning material and then being capable of defending your stance on what has been learned than any independent study would be.


--------------------
Live by the foma that make you brave, and kind, and healthy, and happy.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Education [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4382848 - 07/08/05 05:48 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Self educators are rare, and are rarely respected to the degree they deserve, but they learn for the spirit of learning, and for themselves, more than for the community.

those who value education as a 'formal' process value something incredibly important to society.

the degrees may be paper but they indicate an effort to self improvement, and this upgrades all of us ever so slightly each time anyone graduates.

I support the social recognition of any increments of education very strongly. but I am a self educator because I am impatient for my own knowledge to expand.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Education [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4382993 - 07/08/05 09:05 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

I feel that all truly educated people are self educators whether they have a degree or not. Those who just do the bare minimum to get their degree in order to get a job, but have no furthur interest are uneducated in my view. I deal with many Masters level teachers each day who never read beyond what they need to do for the class they teach.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Invisiblebadchad
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Re: Education [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4383034 - 07/08/05 09:26 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

I agree with Redgreenvines completely.

Education can be an important "piece of paper" as well. There are job opportunities which require a particular degree. This is because having a Ph.D can indicate that you have mastered a partiucl thought process or problem solving ability.

Every field of study is different. While you may be able to "take a Ph.D to school" in a particular subject there are clearly areas where that would be impossible. For instance, try approaching the level of someone with a Ph.D in chemistry, rocket science, or some type of mathematics; it just won't happen (although there may be extremely rare cases, i'm speaking in general terms).

I'm a little less than a year away from completing my Ph.D. For me personally, it has completely changed my life. As a practical matter, my degree has directed my career path and will (hopefully) find me a career which will last decades.

As far as the intangibles are concerned, my training has completely changed my thought process. For instance, everytime someone on this site posts some "authoritative evidence" concerning the effects of a drug, I'm familiar with the process of experimentation and getting the study published. My schooling has trained me to be extremely critical and to look "below the surface" when presented with evidence. For me, this has extended to other areas of my life (politics, philosophy etc.) wher I critically analyze things with a thought process I hadn't developed before school. To me, the "intrinsic value" of being able to analyze issues is worth nearly as much as the degree.


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...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: Education [Re: badchad]
    #4383048 - 07/08/05 09:37 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

I was careful to pick a study that I had a semi-interest in and leave the stuff I'm really interested in alone so the grubby teachers hands couldn't shit on it.


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I am in love with Acidic_Sloth



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Education [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4383086 - 07/08/05 10:03 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
I feel that all truly educated people are self educators whether they have a degree or not. Those who just do the bare minimum to get their degree in order to get a job, but have no furthur interest are uneducated in my view. I deal with many Masters level teachers each day who never read beyond what they need to do for the class they teach.



I get the idea that you think I deal out insults indiscriminately and probably feel that I pick on you particularly much unnecesarily, but really, Hue Hue do you think you are?

you just said that anyone who is not like you (self educated) is not properly educated.

this attitude is due for review, hue, at least the words need trimming and slimming, those who are educated are educated, they may be less "qualified" or may have less "quality" (than "otherwise") in your view, but it just might not be all about you.

BTW congratulations for your wife, the slog has definitely been worthwhile even if her husband is a bit grumpy that the whole world is not going his way on the day of her graduation.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Education [Re: looner2]
    #4383110 - 07/08/05 10:12 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

"For instance, try approaching the level of someone with a Ph.D in chemistry, rocket science, or some type of mathematics; it just won't happen"

I think you are incorrect here. Burt Rutan, who won the Ansari X-Prize, built a spacecraft...he is self educated. Nasa is consulting him for space shuttle 2. The astronaut who piloted the craft had no high school education. John Carmack, a self educated computer programmer, has redefined the field of real time computer graphics several times...and he is building a spacecraft http://www.armadilloaerospace.com/n.x/Armadillo/Home
Linus Torvalds, who designed the Linux operating system kernel was 19 years old at the time. Most Phds in computer science are incapable of this task. In the field of astronomy amateurs make important discoveries quite often. I could cite many more examples of this. The Phd does not denote that the person has knowledge...it means the person spent time and effort. If that person did not take a personal interest in the process they will have only come away with a peice of paper. You have every right to be proud of your accomplishment, but do not let it instill a sense of elitism. My father is a pipefitter (retired) with no high school education. He is a highly intelligent, self educated man. Without these guys we would have no running water. He can build a house (my house actually)by hand...hell he can build anything he sets his mind to. I, myself, value all types of education, but I think the hallmark of the educated person is that the person takes an interest in the process of education and does not simply become a ticket puncher.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


Edited by Huehuecoyotl (07/08/05 10:21 AM)


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Education [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4383119 - 07/08/05 10:17 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

What are you talking about...I was mostly agreeing with your comments about self educators. For the record I have a degree in computer programming. I am self and school taught. I was stating that one must take an interest in a subject to learn it, whether you are in school or out...that is self educating. PM me if you thought I was insulting you, but I was not...I was agreeing. I guess ultimately what I am trying to say is passion=competance. We need all of the competant people we can get in this world. I am not grumpy, I am proud of my wife's efforts...we have both sacrificed much. Her next step is Phd...she starts next year. As for my life...it is headed directly where I want it...don't think I am disgruntled.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


Edited by Huehuecoyotl (07/08/05 10:27 AM)


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Invisiblebadchad
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Re: Education [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4383234 - 07/08/05 11:02 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

The success stories you cite are wonderful, but are usually the exception rather than the rule. "In general" those that have a Ph.D. have a better understanding of their field than others. Along these same lines, particular areas of study/occupations rely more heavily on a Ph.D than others. Business is an area often cited. You can be successful with little to no education.

And despite what you think by definition a Ph.D usually does indicate knowledge in a particular area. AGain, there are exceptions to the rule, but they are few and far between.

As far as "elitists" are concerned I promised myself I'd never become that way and I've fulfilled that goal. I say this in a strictly social sense. As far as my field of study is concerned eltism is a matter of definition. I know more in my field of study than the other 99% who do not have a Ph.D. so in the sense of knowledge of what I study I am in fact, a member of the elite. This is analogous in the way that a plumber, (who knows more about plumbing than the vast majority of the population), in comparison to those without knowledge, can be considered an "elitist" in the art of plumbing.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


Edited by badchad (07/08/05 11:09 AM)


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Education [Re: badchad]
    #4383249 - 07/08/05 11:09 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

My point here is that you can get a college education and learn very little...or you can take an interest and become knowledgeable. I have a degree in computer programming, but I am very knowledeable in several other areas of personal interest. I think that learning is the most important endeavor for any human to engage in. I feel that this ultimately makes the world a better place to live due to the fact that people are more enlightened. The degree finishes, but one's education should not...that should only stop at death. It is worth noting that all of the education in the world cannot replace an open mind and a critical thought process.

"there are exceptions to the rule, but they are few and far between"
During my time in college I met a few such exceptions (instructors). They were either ignorant or no longer cared enough to properly do their job.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Education [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4383312 - 07/08/05 11:34 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

I have a personal obsevation on the medical profession. Very difficult to become a doctor. Lots of hard work and schooling. Very smart.

BUT

Because they just absorbed the rules and teaching without thinking about things on their own. Most doctors (until recently and forced by ecomonics to do so) did not acknowledge the role of emotions and nutrition in health.

I ,without an education in medicine did recogonize the connection.  :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Education [Re: Icelander]
    #4383336 - 07/08/05 11:49 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

I think that this observation is quite accurate. There are also many, many medical doctors who just see a patient as a dollar sign. A "pain doctor" (you know, gives out drugs) where I live had 3 patients commit suicide out of frustration with drugs as a solution to pain. He was criticised heavily...so he just moved and set up shop in another community...obviously he is very well educated.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Education [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4383349 - 07/08/05 11:52 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

even a professional student - who learns nothing - who manages to stay out of the workforce - who contributes next to nothing except poop, but manages to keep out of trouble, is better than a hooligan or terrorist of any kind.

maybe a diamond in the rough too.

at least he helps to perpetuate the universities by being a customer, this type of consumption is really a contribution to a good part of society indirectly.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Education [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4383377 - 07/08/05 12:00 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

There is nothing wrong with doing this...if I could afford to be a professional student I would. When I said that learning made for a more enlightened world I was refering to the process where learning makes an individual more aware on many levels, so therefore they develop a more enlightened view of our planet and our life here...this makes the world a finer place to live in and of itself. I do not think that learning is solely to prepare us for the production oriented treadmill, but to make us more worthy humans in all respects.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Education [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4383577 - 07/08/05 01:08 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Hue said: A friend of mine with a Phd said that it was merely a piece of paper. I tend to think that it only matters if you can apply it. If you cannot apply it, it is useless




Of course a PhD is only a piece of paper! So is a Marriage Certificate, a Deed to your home, a $100 bill. These pieces of paper are clumsy attempts to make tangible the intangible.

In the case of a degree, the piece of paper could indicate that someone has achieved a high level of knowledge in a certain subject. Or it could indicate that they are highly skilled at digesting and regurgitating information to please their professors.

I like the statement made by Will in "Good Will Hunting," that a cocky young college students education cost him many thousands of dollars, and he has little knowledge to show for it, whereas Will's education was purchased for a $2 library card!

I was a home learner from 2nd grade until I passed the GED test and began college classes at age 16. I continue to learn independently by utilizing my library card and the internet, whether I am attending formal classes or not. My learning is intrinsically motivated, and has never been about grades or approval.

My point is, education is what you make of it! I believe that a degree has little value if you have not learned to love learning.


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Invisiblemoog
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Re: Education [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4383771 - 07/08/05 01:55 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

The way I see it, the only education is self-education. People can't be "taught." I think the entire concept of teaching (forced learning) is a farce. People can only learn from those people who are giving out information. Why do I say this? Because most things I've ever been "taught" I've already forgotten, but every thing that I wanted to learn (and therefore learned by myself) I can still easily remember.

It's the desire to learn that's at the root of education. If the interest or desire isn't there, then why even bother. This is why I favor an apprenticeship system over a broad education, because that broad education in high school and college usually just ends up being forgotten. With apprenticeship, a person can concentrate on learning what they're really interested in through real experience instead of by books, and in their free time they can still learn other subjects that they have interest in.


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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: Education [Re: moog]
    #4383899 - 07/08/05 02:35 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

The detail and scope of learning a hard science such as biology, chemistry, physics, and math are very hard to do on your own. You may think you know it good enough, but until you study test after test against people who are trying to get into med school, your throughness of the material is really hardened by practice and tests.

Although it can be done alone, I think the foundation of competing for grades brings out the best skills in furthering your own education.


--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth



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OfflineDroz
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Re: Education [Re: looner2]
    #4384326 - 07/08/05 05:00 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

THe school system is fucked they brainwash the masses with false information through books word and the system. Peace, Droz


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Evolution of Time.


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