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Offlinefreddurgan
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Big Pharm : Help or hurt?
    #4381215 - 07/07/05 09:25 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I was thinking about going into pre-pharm but I'm a little torn here. I can understand how medicine at one point was the PINNACLE of medical science, however I am not sure now. Does anyone know how important medicine is to the medical field these days? Are there medicines that are widely used that really HELP solve a medical problem?

Let's ignore psychopharmacology for now, aka things like Adderall, Ritalin, Prozac, Modafinil (yum),Xanax or things of that nature. I mean drugs that really HELP! Like penicillin before it was tossed around like candy. What about heart medications? Stroke? Pain killers?

Anyone have any good info on Pharmacy BESIDES the scandals and financial information. I mean information about pharmacology.


--------------------
Ishmael
http://www.ishmael.org

Ron Paul 2008!
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/


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OfflineBleaK
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Re: Big Pharm : Help or hurt? [Re: freddurgan]
    #4382339 - 07/08/05 02:45 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

the only way to health is a healthy lifestyle.


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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OfflineLazyCrash
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Re: Big Pharm : Help or hurt? [Re: BleaK]
    #4382394 - 07/08/05 03:01 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I believe all pharms are based on things that exist in nature. They just either straight up rip it off (and then ban organics from being used as medicine) or 'compress' it into a tangible and easy to take form.

You have to be prepared to stand up for your own morals anytime you are getting a job involved with the 'system'.

Personally, I think the pharm industry isn't going to be growing that much. I don't have hard facts...I just believe that major health reform in the US will happen in our lifetime, and have a big effect on the power these businesses have right now. None the less, they will always be there.

That's what I think...but I'm just the local anti-government conspiracy freak.


--------------------
:mallow:


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Invisiblemoog
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Registered: 02/15/05
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Re: Big Pharm : Help or hurt? [Re: freddurgan]
    #4382506 - 07/08/05 03:30 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

You know, I've realized that's it's not so much a problem of the pharmacorps pushing drugs on people as it is that people in general are pretty ignorant about what to do to stay healthy so they don't have to take the drugs to begin with. I figure that in a lot of cases it's kind of a "that's what you get." This may seem mean but people who get sick out of their own ignorance deserve it.

Some people aren't even aware that a lot of disease and illness is caused by toxin buildup in the body, which is caused by their diet. They can avoid a simple flu by eating healthier foods, especially by avoiding sugar and fungus-laden foods, which includes mushrooms(!) and fermented foods like cheese and beer. Yeast thrives on sugar, btw. You are basically feeding the bacteria in your body everytime you consume sugar. Just remember that ALL contracted illness is caused by the inability of your immune system to combat it. So if you want to be healthy, strengthening your immune system should be your top priority.


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OfflineBloodNOil
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Re: Big Pharm : Help or hurt? [Re: moog]
    #4382942 - 07/08/05 07:58 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

So people who get sick deserve it? Cool. Now I have something
snappy to say when people complain to me about missing
work/school/whatever because of illness.


--------------------
It's like a koala bear crapped a rainbow in my brain!


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Big Pharm : Help or hurt? [Re: BloodNOil]
    #4382949 - 07/08/05 08:11 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Pharmacies are a valid part of our civilized communities, and I think it is very important that a higher education is mandatory for all pharmacists.

everyone can take their knowledge further, (pharmacists should definitely) these schools mandate a minimum knowledge which is very good, but more is better.

unfortunately, in dispensaries of non-pharmacy type healing substances, the shop keepers and managers are not well enough regulated and frequently they have less than a reasonable minimum knowledge about the products they sell.

nothing is perfect, but the intent of pharmacy is excellent and it is a noble carreer path as well. Also a convergence of natural healing substances and purified extracts and synthesized medicines is inevitable in pharmacies.


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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: Big Pharm : Help or hurt? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4382963 - 07/08/05 08:36 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Yes. I think medicine helps the human race, its evident by looking at the age expectancy quota throughout history.

Convienance is the real killer.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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Invisiblebadchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
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Re: Big Pharm : Help or hurt? [Re: psyka]
    #4382991 - 07/08/05 09:04 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Sure, lots of medications have helped people. You quoted antibiotics which are no small thing. There are thousands of medications which help people on a daily basis and receive no mention or media coverage because they have little side effects. How about Beta Blockers for blood pressure? Lipitor and other cholesterol lowering drugs, birth control pills, viagra, old school aspirin etc. etc.

Be aware that if you decide a career in pharmacy/pharmacology you won't necessarily be thrust into the middle of the "Big Pharma/overmedication" debate. Obviously you should be aware of that issue, however I know plenty of pharmacists who go home at the end of the day like any other average joe. I guess a clearer statement is that there can be a separation between government policy makers whom try to resolve the "big pharma" deabte and the local pharmacist.

Try and figure out what you want from a pharmacy career. As I said in an alternate post there are basically two paths of post-graduate work for pharmacists: A Ph.D of "pharm-D".

If you think you'd like to be involved in policy making etc. Maybe Law or political science might be better.

$0.02


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Big Pharm : Help or hurt? [Re: badchad]
    #4383062 - 07/08/05 09:47 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

"little side effects"
"Lipitor and other cholesterol lowering drugs"

Statin drugs have become very popular and are being widely prescribed in recent years to lower high blood cholesterol and thus reduce the risk for heart disease. These drugs block cholesterol production in the body by inhibiting the enzyme called HMG-CoA reductase in the early steps of its synthesis in the mevalonate pathway. This same biosynthetic pathway is also shared by CoQ10. Therefore, one unfortunate consequence of statin drugs is the unintentional inhibition of CoQ10 synthesis. Thus, in the long run, statin drugs could predispose the patients to heart disease by lowering their CoQ10 status, the very condition that these drugs are intended to prevent.

Dr. Emile Bliznakov, an authority on CoQ10, recently published a scholarly review on the interaction between statin drugs and CoQ10 (Bliznakov and Wilkins, 1998). He wrote the best-selling book "The Miracle Nutrient Coenzyme Q10" several years ago and it is still being hailed as the best reference book on CoQ10 (Bliznakov, 1987).

The reduction of CoQ10 levels might be associated with myopathy, a rare adverse effect associated with statin drugs. This metabolic myopathy is related to ubiquinone (CoQ10) deficiency in muscle cell mitochondria, disturbing normal cellular respiration and causing adverse effects such as rhabdomyolysis, exercise intolerance, and recurrent myoglobinuria. (DiMuro S., Exercise intolerance and the mitochondrial respiratory chain. Ital J Neurol Sci. Dec. 1999;20(6):387-393).

It is important to note that Coenzyme Q10 supplementation does not interfere with the very important cholesterol-lowering effect of statin drugs such as Lipitor? and Zocor?. Therefore, if you are taking a statin drug, (especially for an extended period of time), you may want to consider discussing CoQ10 supplementation with your health care professional.

The bottom line is that the popular and widely prescribed cholesterol lowering drugs called "Statins" can block the synthesis of Coenzyme Q10 in the body which may lead to sub-optimal CoQ10 levels. Supplementation with Q-Gel CoQ-10 is a prudent approach when undergoing "statin" therapy.

But, don't just take our word for it. One of the world's premier Pharmaceutical Companies and the manufacturer of the 2nd largest selling statin drug has not one but two US Patents regarding the use of Coenzyme Q10 with HMG-COA Reductase Inhibitors (Statins). You can read the full contents of these patents for yourself on the official United States Patent and Trademark Office web site (www.uspto.gov/). It is interesting to note that both of these patents were issued over twelve years ago (May and June of 1990) but that no use of the patented process of combining Coenzyme Q10 with HMG-COA Reductase Inhibitors (Statins) has yet been made or publicized.

The Patent numbers you will want to look up are: Patent Number: 4,933,165 Patent Number: 4,929,437

Below is a verbatim sample from Patent Number 4,933,165.

"What is claimed is:

1. A pharmaceutical composition comprising a pharmaceutical carrier and an effective antihypercholesterolemic amount of an HMG-CoA reductase inhibitor and an amount of Coenzyme Q.sub.10 effective to counteract HMG-CoA reductase inhibitor-associated skeletal muscle myopathy.

2. A composition of claim 1 in which the HMG-CoA reductase inhibitor is selected from: lovastatin, simvastatin, pravastatin and sodium-3,5-dihydroxy-7-[3-(4-fluorophenyl)-1-(methylethyl)-1H-Indole-2yl]- hept-6-enoate.

3. A method of counteracting HMG-CoA reductase inhibitor-associated skeletal muscle myopathy in a subject in need of such treatment which comprises the adjunct administration of a therapeutically effective amount of an HMG-CoA reductase inhibitor and an effective amount of Coenzyme Q.sub.10 to counteract said myopathy.

4. A method of claim 3 in which the HMG-CoA reductase inhibitor is selected from the group consisting of: lovastatin, simvastatin, pravastatin and sodium-3,5-dihydroxy-7-[3-(4-fluorophenyl)-1-(methylethyl)-1H-Indole-2yl]- hept-6-enoate."

To access these patents: Go to the official United States Patent and Trademark Office web site at (www.uspto.gov/). (We certainly hope you'll come back to epic4health.com later!). From the Patent offices home page "click" on the Patents button, then "click" on "Search Patents", then click on "Patent Number Search". Type in the patent number (4,933,165) in the "Query Box" and "click" on the search button. The Patent number and title will show up, then just click on the patent number and you will be able to read the full documentation, including who is assigned the patent. I've probably made this whole search process sound harder than it really is -- give it a try, you may be surprised by what you learn.

Above is a reprint of an article.  A little dry, but  you wanted pharmacology, Fred... :smile:

Real life case, my mom was taking Lipitor and having the same muscle weakness and fatigue (symptoms of the myopathy described above).  Her friend of simlar age also had muscle weakness which also stopped after stopping the Lipitor.  I don't think this problem is as rare as described above.   

Lipitor is just one example of a drug that is overprescribed, isn't effective for many patients (cholesterol levels are largely genetic and/or affected more by diet/exercise than taking Lipitor), has serious side effects, yet is held in high esteem by doctors and patients.  Well, Vioxx used to be great too, and now it's been pulled from the market and a lawsuit.

I don't think the problem is pharmacists, the problem is the drug companies with their powerful lobby on Capital Hill and the system of drug review the FDA currently has.  When drug companies pay the FDA to review their drugs, that is a conflict of interest.  The pressure on FDA researchers and management to approve various drugs with serious side effects minimized in ads and print is HUGE.  The doctors get "taught" at their "Lipitor conference" in Maui sponsored by Eli Lilly.  Patients get overprescribed, overcharged, and given medication of questionable efficacy in many situations with serious side effects.

That's the system, I don't know how you change it other than be careful to check out any drug the doctor prescribes before you start taking it. 


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


Edited by LunarEclipse (07/08/05 11:38 AM)


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Invisiblebadchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 11,738
Re: Big Pharm : Help or hurt? [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #4383467 - 07/08/05 12:36 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Drugs, like other aspects of social medicine are a balance between risks and benefits. In the case of the statins, the benefits outweigh the risks.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Big Pharm : Help or hurt? [Re: badchad]
    #4383499 - 07/08/05 12:43 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Not always, There are natural remedies that sometimes work instead of statins. When they are not explored but dismissed out of hand by the medical profession. That is wrong IMO.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Big Pharm : Help or hurt? [Re: Icelander]
    #4383531 - 07/08/05 12:56 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

what is Niacin wrt cholesterol.
what is omega-3 wrt cholesterol.

both of those appeal to me better than the statins.

one I get from fish and the other from a capsule.

the paper on statin industry is solid - but a few lawsuits will be triggered - some class action has been started already.

pharmacology is much bigger than statins.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Big Pharm : Help or hurt? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4383545 - 07/08/05 01:01 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

pharmacology is much bigger than statins
____________________________________
Agree!


You can use red yeast rice, which is a natural form of statins without most or all  of the dangers.

Policosinol, is another one the natural foods industry offers.

Diet is a big one here also. And emotions such as stress. Many people can heal themselves without medical help, but are unwilling to do so. :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Big Pharm : Help or hurt? [Re: freddurgan]
    #4383567 - 07/08/05 01:06 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I think pharmaceuticals themselves are a good thing. What I don't like about Big Pharm is that they are a state-sponsored oligopoly that keeps medical costs too high. If the pharmaceutical industry was more of a free market, with more competition and less centralized power, I'd be much more cool with it.


--------------------


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Offlinefreddurgan
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Re: Big Pharm : Help or hurt? [Re: freddurgan]
    #4384421 - 07/08/05 05:37 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

It just seems like the whole approach to external medicine is just a step in the wrong direction. Maybe I'm thinking too eastern here. There has to be a good balance between caring for yourself and using what natural or modern chemistry has to offer.


--------------------
Ishmael
http://www.ishmael.org

Ron Paul 2008!
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Re: Big Pharm : Help or hurt? [Re: freddurgan]
    #4384439 - 07/08/05 05:44 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

You're right, there is!  But here's what it takes. It can't be mostly about the money or your ego.  The oath to do no harm has to be alive in you! You must care about what your doing and have a passion for it.

Can you handle that? Few can. :mushroom2: :heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Big Pharm : Help or hurt? [Re: badchad]
    #4384585 - 07/08/05 06:38 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

"In the case of the statins, the benefits outweigh the risks."

That's the medical profession's opinion, so statins have become perhaps the most overprescribed drug there is.

The fact is that there is VERY little direct correlation between cholesterol levels, heart disease, and longevity. Some people have high cholesterol genetically (like my family) and yet have great hearts and live a long time. Some people have low cholesterol genetically yet have family history of heart disease and early death.

Before I EVER decided to take a statin, I would increase my exercise and lose some weight and improve my diet. All those things will increase my longevity and reduce my risk of heart disease PLUS reduce my cholesterol as a side effect/benefit. The fact that I could and should be exercising more and losing some weight first only strengthens my resolve not to start taking statins before I start working out more/eating better.

That, and to mess with one's metabolic pathway at the risk of damage to your nerves and muscles, just to lower some arbitrary number, where's the benefit in that?


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


Edited by LunarEclipse (07/08/05 06:42 PM)


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Invisiblebadchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
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Re: Big Pharm : Help or hurt? [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #4384654 - 07/08/05 07:08 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Your claim is akin to saying: "My dad smoked a pack a day of cigareetes and never got cancer". Cholesterol has been strongly linked to development of heart disease, many times over in every major study. Google cholesterol and heart disease and you'll get a million hits.

Heart disease is the Leading cause of death in the United States. The number one killer.

Lowering cholesterol is a good thing. Of course diet and exercise are the best approach, however you probably know many people who have a tough time following a strict diet and exercise program. For these individuals drugs are a logical second choice.

The chances of developing sever nerve damage are less than 1%. So yes, in light of the larger picture the benefits do outweigh the risks.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

Registered: 11/08/98
Posts: 2,261
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Re: Big Pharm : Help or hurt? [Re: freddurgan]
    #4385566 - 07/09/05 01:06 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Modern medicine has largely failed in its approach to treating diseases; What it excels at is treating traumatic injuries. It is second to none in that category.

Their synthetic drugs have tons of side effects because they mimic natural chemicals the body is familiar with, but there are significant differences. Like a key that fits a lock almost, but not quite. The body doesn't quite know what to do with these substances and like a bird who uses trash to make its nest, the body does the best it can and incorporates these materials.

So your patient has side effects from the synthetic drug you prescribed for a disease easily cured by a change in diet which you neglected to mention? No problem! Just prescribe another drug to nip that nasty side effect in the bud. Oh and that drug also has a side effect? No problem! Just prescribe another drug.. Are you beginning to get the picture about whose interests are being looked out for? Oh and while you're at it, be sure to order lots of expensive tests. They aren't really needed? No problem! Their insurance will pay for it.

Also scientists extract the "active ingredient" from plants rather than using the whole plant or herb itself. But there is often a problem with side effects even when they do a pure extraction. Why? Because nature, in its wisdom, placed companion chemicals in that plant alongside the active ingredient to check and balance it. When you remove only the active ingredient you're leaving behind what was needed to balance the effects of that substance and you have problems. So, you might ask, why doesn't conventional medicine just use the whole plant or herb then?.. Because they can't patent an herb or plant!!

No patent, no check.

No check? No boat cruise to Bimini.



Edited by Jellric (07/09/05 05:46 AM)


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Re: Big Pharm : Help or hurt? [Re: Jellric]
    #4386241 - 07/09/05 09:20 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Great post.

People want doctors to take control of there lives unfortunately. Just like we get the govt. we choose we also get the health care we choose :mushroom2:.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
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