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Invisiblelooner2
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Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Nationalism is not a bad word
    #4375872 - 07/06/05 03:37 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

If you claim to be a nationalist or even hint at a basic idealogy of nationalism then you are instantly labeled a fascist imperialist. This stems from the current progressive idealogy of world government. These ideas have evolved post WW2 and are essential to the formation of the U.N and the E.U.

Nationalism is simply recognition of the fact that nations can defend and prosper better if they act independently rather than collectively.

Doesn't seem to bad, does it? Although even mentioning that you believe in nationlistic principles will yield you to be grouped in the same extremity of racists. Thanks to progressive political correctness on the world stage you are unable to effectively govern your own country. Talk about a stranglehold on ideas!

Not only is this ignorant, but its also very dangerous. As the rise of power among developing nations increases, and the playing field levels out, the U.S will not be alone in world power. Other nations will attempt to seize some of their own, and it is only a matter of time before another cataclysmic war breaks out.

This could be averted or reduced if nations free themselves from the burden of the "We are all one" (TM) mentality. Acting in only a nations interest, we will be able to perceive growing threats and respond in a manner we see as necessary. Nations can't possibly be expected to fully understand the condition of other nations and their defense, but currently that is the current methodology for defense. Only when we rid ourselves of ridiculous dogma will peace for OUR nation, and security for OUR future generations be possible.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Nationalism is not a bad word [Re: looner2]
    #4375885 - 07/06/05 03:40 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I like nationalism, but I also believe it can be taken way too far.

Look at WWI for example. Everyone thought they were going to win that war, and there were crowds cheering in the streets thinking their country was going to be the victor. This "my country is the strongest" led to a military stalemate with millions dead.

I love the US, and I wouldn't want to live anywhere else, but I feel nationalism is something which must be treated with caution.


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InvisibleYoung_but_cool
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Re: Nationalism is not a bad word [Re: looner2]
    #4376397 - 07/06/05 05:57 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Nationalism served it's purpose. Then we move on.


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InvisibleGijith
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Re: Nationalism is not a bad word [Re: looner2]
    #4376449 - 07/06/05 06:07 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

looner, this is of course, one view of nationalism.

I want to love my country. I want it to be successful and dominant in most areas. Does this mean I have to buy into these beliefs of yours?


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Offlinefreddurgan
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Re: Nationalism is not a bad word [Re: Young_but_cool]
    #4376545 - 07/06/05 06:31 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Young_but_cool said:
Nationalism served it's purpose. Then we move on.




I love it. Well said. Nationalism is outdated. The world is smaller than it's ever been and ideals like that are just not adaptive to a collective world peace.


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OfflineHarryFlashmanVC
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Re: Nationalism is not a bad word [Re: looner2]
    #4376613 - 07/06/05 06:45 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

If you claim to be a nationalist or even hint at a basic idealogy of nationalism then you are instantly labeled a fascist imperialist




No its comments like this that imply fascistic imperialist tendencies:

Quote:

There you go () by looner2  [06.16.05 12:28pm]

You are English, which is one step-above eurotrash. You have the potential to be recycled!

I hold no ill will towards you personally my friend. I would allow your country into the American Empire (TM) if you came willingly. If not, I would fully support your massacre at the hands of the American liberators. 





I've got to say Looner, peeps round my way are crapping it big time over your potential invasion!  I mean after we've all seen how well you dealt with Iraq :wink:


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Nationalism is not a bad word [Re: looner2]
    #4376698 - 07/06/05 07:02 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Nationalism is simply recognition of the fact that nations can defend and prosper better if they act independently rather than collectively.

Uh, is that a fact or a belief?

And while "We are all one" is pretty naive, things are changing pretty quickly. Due to accelerated communications technology, a global economy, and the ease at which we can transport ourselves to anywhere in the world, cultures are no longer geographically fixed.

There is often a greater cultural divide between any two random people within a single city than two random people from opposite sides of the planet.

Power is no longer entirely militaristic, corporations are entities which amass economic power and they are not tied to a people or a location. A power struggle does not necessarily mean a war, it can just as easily mean an attempt to grab a market.

We no longer live in a world where most people define themselves by their nationality. People identify themselves by their cultural preferences and political or philosophical opinions rather than by their heritage.

The sets of opinions within nations are no longer homogenous. Rivalries are between subcultures and schools of thought rather than between nations.

Nationalism is flawed because it is obsolete, it is a relic of a time when people were largely uneducated, and tied to their place of origin rather than their ideas.


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
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OfflinePhred
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Re: Nationalism is not a bad word [Re: Phluck]
    #4376741 - 07/06/05 07:12 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Blind nationalism is of course absurd. It's ridiculous to be proud of your country if it's say, North Korea or Cuba or Cambodia or the ex-USSR. It depends on the nation.



Phred


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OfflineGrav
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Re: Nationalism is not a bad word [Re: Phred]
    #4377915 - 07/07/05 12:23 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

i love America with all my heart, but i think nationalism should fall somewhere below common sense, not above it.


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OfflineTao
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Re: Nationalism is not a bad word [Re: looner2]
    #4378674 - 07/07/05 04:40 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:


Nationalism is simply recognition of the fact that nations can defend and prosper better if they act independently rather than collectively.




You've reduced "nationalism" to nothing more than a belief in the value of nation-state sovereignty, a very prevalent international relations view. This is not what people generally object to about nationalism, more its the version where one believes that the country of their birth is the "best" nation on earth which can help lead to the horrors that we saw in the first half of the 20th century.


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Offlinebutterflydawn
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Re: Nationalism is not a bad word [Re: Tao]
    #4378962 - 07/07/05 08:08 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

nationalism is a bad word


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lucidal expansion


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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: Nationalism is not a bad word [Re: Phluck]
    #4379141 - 07/07/05 10:56 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Phluck said:
Uh, is that a fact or a belief?




Nations, groups, and empires have always acted in their own self-interests throughout history. Whether that be to intiate conquests or defend from conquerers. It was the name of the game, and the only way to survive the harsh realities that this world brings.

By default, that is the way it has always been, and should continue to be.

So yes, it is a fact (as well as that word could be used in politics), whereas a belief that a world community is somehow the safer approach to solving world problems only needs 1 bad apple to seize power from the proverbial gridlock that nations face when they need to partake in military operations. This belief is untested, and somehow has the vice grip on current international relations. It is a time-bomb waiting to happen.

Quote:

Phluck said:
And while "We are all one" is pretty naive, things are changing pretty quickly. Due to accelerated communications technology, a global economy, and the ease at which we can transport ourselves to anywhere in the world, cultures are no longer geographically fixed.

There is often a greater cultural divide between any two random people within a single city than two random people from opposite sides of the planet.

Power is no longer entirely militaristic, corporations are entities which amass economic power and they are not tied to a people or a location. A power struggle does not necessarily mean a war, it can just as easily mean an attempt to grab a market.

We no longer live in a world where most people define themselves by their nationality. People identify themselves by their cultural preferences and political or philosophical opinions rather than by their heritage.

The sets of opinions within nations are no longer homogenous. Rivalries are between subcultures and schools of thought rather than between nations.

Nationalism is flawed because it is obsolete, it is a relic of a time when people were largely uneducated, and tied to their place of origin rather than their ideas.





People will forget their politcal beliefs, subcultures, and philosophies quite quickly when a threat to their life and everyone around them is in jeopardy. Regardless of the fact that countries are made up of a heterogenous community, the nation rules supreme as the basis for freedom and protection.


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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
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Re: Nationalism is not a bad word [Re: Tao]
    #4379161 - 07/07/05 11:09 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Tao said:
Quote:


Nationalism is simply recognition of the fact that nations can defend and prosper better if they act independently rather than collectively.




You've reduced "nationalism" to nothing more than a belief in the value of nation-state sovereignty, a very prevalent international relations view. This is not what people generally object to about nationalism, more its the version where one believes that the country of their birth is the "best" nation on earth which can help lead to the horrors that we saw in the first half of the 20th century.




No I didn't. I am speaking of something that isn't written on the walls, but a current philosophical dogma that has infected the minds of people of the world. Most current leaders recognize the absurdity of it, but are unable to oppose it and must take precautions to show approval toward it.

You are more closely describing patriotism, nothing more than an emotional response to your country. Sure it is vital in keeping the populous united, but it shallow compared to nationalism.

Nationalism puts a nation first and foremost. It recognizes that the nations populous has to be defended without regard to anyone that doesn't fall within its borders. 1 American life is worth more than 10,000 from anywhere else. Before you get upset, I am not trying to describe a philosophical truth, but merely setting the table to further my country on a global scale. There is no right or wrong in this situation, just what has to be done; this is how we need to hardwire our thinking.


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OfflineHarryFlashmanVC
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Registered: 05/24/05
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Re: Nationalism is not a bad word [Re: looner2]
    #4379432 - 07/07/05 01:01 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

1 American life is worth more than 10,000 from anywhere else.




Why exactly Looner? Is your answer simply because "I'm an American"? Or have Americans achieved some pinacle no other nation ever has or will?

If we all felt that way the world is going to hell in a shitbox.


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OfflineTao
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Re: Nationalism is not a bad word [Re: HarryFlashmanVC]
    #4379467 - 07/07/05 01:15 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Read it again, I don't think you understood what he was saying. He was saying that if all nations felt that way, the world would be better off. I can't really be assed to argue this as I'm not completely sure what/with whom he is arguing.


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OfflineHarryFlashmanVC
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Re: Nationalism is not a bad word [Re: Tao]
    #4379571 - 07/07/05 01:46 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I don't agree.

Quote:

Before you get upset, I am not trying to describe a philosophical truth, but merely setting the table to further my country on a global scale.




Sounds like in this Utopia where we all felt that one or our citizens was worth thousands of any other countries would not be one where countries respected each other but where interests were "furthered". I presume with war. Viva American Imperialism eh?

So I'm saying if all nations felt that way the world would be screwed.


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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
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Re: Nationalism is not a bad word [Re: HarryFlashmanVC]
    #4379707 - 07/07/05 02:34 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

HarryFlashmanVC said:
I don't agree.

Quote:

Before you get upset, I am not trying to describe a philosophical truth, but merely setting the table to further my country on a global scale.




Sounds like in this Utopia where we all felt that one or our citizens was worth thousands of any other countries would not be one where countries respected each other but where interests were "furthered". I presume with war. Viva American Imperialism eh?

So I'm saying if all nations felt that way the world would be screwed.




Would American imperalism be in the best interests of America? If so, continue. If not, then no thanks.

See that? We should not be bound by the "right/wrong" of our action, but more of the "help/hurt us" of our actions.

This is far from utopia, it is setting the table for the best possible outcome for America, free from all the hindrences that modern progressive thought have placed on us.


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OfflineStrandedVoyager
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Re: Nationalism is not a bad word [Re: looner2]
    #4379744 - 07/07/05 02:47 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Nationalism should be like rooting for your favorite sports team. You cheer for your team and hope it does well but you're not willing to kill someone because they're rooting for another team.

Imagine how fucked the Olympics could get if Nationalism was embraced so intensely.


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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: Nationalism is not a bad word [Re: Gijith]
    #4379785 - 07/07/05 02:58 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Gijith said:
looner, this is of course, one view of nationalism.

I want to love my country. I want it to be successful and dominant in most areas. Does this mean I have to buy into these beliefs of yours?




I am not asking you to buy into any beliefs, but to recognize that if you want your country to be successful and dominant then you need to act independently, unopposed, and without restraint.


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OfflineHarryFlashmanVC
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Re: Nationalism is not a bad word [Re: looner2]
    #4379929 - 07/07/05 03:31 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

We should not be bound by the "right/wrong" of our action, but more of the "help/hurt us" of our actions.





In my view it is precisely the opposite of this that is one of the few things to elevate above being animals.


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