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OfflineGrav
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When you ride alone, you ride with Bid Laden
    #4374868 - 07/06/05 08:24 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

This is from a book written by Bill Maher. The content seems to contain a dangerous amount of common sense. Here is an excerpt from the first page.

If you've already given blood and sent a charitable donation directly to Julia Roberts so she can personally hand it over to a World Trade Center victim, and you've already made the tough personal sacrifices outlined by our president-shop, travel, and go out to eat-you may now be asking yourself, "What more can I do to help the war effort?"

What we can all do is show a willingness to change. And I'm not talking about simple, superficial change like putting a flag on our cars or refraining from criticizing the administration. The concept I'm talking about is sacrifice. Some people do it for their families, some people do it to get rock-hard abs, but not many of us seem willing to do it for America.

Americans today confuse freedom with not being asked to sacrifice. The fact that you can't have everything you want exactly when you want it has somehow become un-American. We'd rather sacrfice our virgins than our SUVs. "I'll guzzle as much gas as I want-this isn't Europe!" Sure you can, Captain America, but just try to imagine a World War II-era American saying, "I'll use as much damn gas and tin as I want-andwhile we're at it, screw your victory garden!" They'd call you "Axis Asshole." Somehow, America morphed from a nation that embraced rationing to one that practically impeached Jimmy Carter for having the nerve to suggest we turn down the thermostat and put on a sweater. Even in the wake of an event so invasive and frightening as September 11, not one person in a leadership position in America asked anyone to really give up or rethink anything. Pandering to a spoiled citizenry had become so ingrained, it remained in place even as buildings and complacencies crumbled. "Keep shopping!" The president told us, letting the political chips fall where they may.

"Shop till they drop!"

Yes, we were asked to do very little and we responded. That's the bargain we tacitly make with our presidents: we won't ask too much of you, if you don't ask too much of us.


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OfflineTao
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Re: When you ride alone, you ride with Bid Laden [Re: Grav]
    #4374944 - 07/06/05 09:15 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah, good short read :thumbup:


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: When you ride alone, you ride with Bid Laden [Re: Grav]
    #4375001 - 07/06/05 09:50 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

i strongly agree with the notion of shitcanning the SUVs..but otherwise..bill maher could not be more wrong...americans have been all too willing to give up many of their freedoms..and accept conditions of grinding poverty..because they believe it to be in the best interests of america as a whole ..

Quote:

Even in the wake of an event so invasive and frightening as September 11, not one person in a leadership position in America asked anyone to really give up or rethink anything




bullshit...9/11 became a mandate for transforming america into a closed society... the govt hasnt illegally seized any SUVs..but they have nevertheless demanded terrible sacrifices from the american ppl..who once again have been more than happy to pony up...

the SUVs specifically are a direct statement of support for neocon military expansionism...by purchasing one..the owner is intentionally and deliberately investing his/her personal interest in the success of neocon military adventures aimed at seizing oil (and natural gas)...as such..it would make no sense for the govt to restrict SUVs or otherwise encourage conservation..especially given the payoffs from the war to bushs' campaign sponsors...


--------------------


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OfflinePhred
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Re: When you ride alone, you ride with Bid Laden [Re: Annapurna1]
    #4375130 - 07/06/05 10:54 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Annapurna1 writes:

Quote:

americans have been all too willing to give up many of their freedoms..




Interesting assertion. Please specify for us a few of the many freedoms Americans have given up since 9/11, willingly or otherwise. What -- specifically -- were you as an American citizen free to do in America on September 10, 2001 that you are not free to do today?

Quote:

...and accept conditions of grinding poverty..




"Grinding poverty"? Please supply us a specific percentage increase in the number of Americans in "grinding poverty" in America since 9/11. Then show us how these people newly dumped into "grinding poverty" went there "all too willingly".

Quote:

...because they believe it to be in the best interests of america as a whole ..




What, you'd be happier if they did it out of greedy self-interest instead? Or because Jesus told them it was the right thing to do?

Quote:

9/11 became a mandate for transforming america into a closed society...




Bullshit. The American society is no more "closed" today than it was four years ago. Let's have a couple of specific examples supporting this outrageous assertion, please.

Quote:

...the govt hasnt illegally seized any SUVs..




No, that's a tactic of the eco-terrorists.

Quote:

..but they have nevertheless demanded terrible sacrifices from the american ppl..




Such as? Please name for us a couple of specific "terrible sacrifices" the American people have had to make by order of the US government since September 11, 2001.

Quote:

..who once again have been more than happy to pony up...




Once you have named a few of these sacrifices, please provide us specific proof that the Americans making these sacrifices were "more than happy" to make them.



Phred


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InvisibleLe_Canard
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Re: When you ride alone, you ride with Bid Laden [Re: Phred]
    #4375184 - 07/06/05 11:22 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Annapurna1 writes:

Quote:

americans have been all too willing to give up many of their freedoms..




Interesting assertion. Please specify for us a few of the many freedoms Americans have given up since 9/11, willingly or otherwise. What -- specifically -- were you as an American citizen free to do in America on September 10, 2005 that you are not free to do today?






Well, let's see. A government agency can now gather information through such means as tapping my telephone, monitoring my internet usage or look into my financial records as it pleases about anyone who that may find "suspicious" without warrant or indictment, They can enter into and look around my home without the same. Also, if they think I might be terrorist, I can be held indefinitely without charge or indictment.  And they can also now inflict cruel and unusual punishment to extract any potential      information whilst being held. And if I want to convey a message or my viewpoint to the president through peaceful protest, I have to do it in designated "Freedom Zones", where said president won't be bothered by seeing it. And National ID cards are in the works, no doubt leading to tracking of my movements to make sure I'm not up to something. Of course, these were designed to root out potential terrorists, and cops and federal agents are all such a sterling bunch of fellows that surely these expanded police powers won't be abused at some point.... :rolleyes:


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OfflinePhred
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Re: When you ride alone, you ride with Bid Laden [Re: Le_Canard]
    #4375236 - 07/06/05 11:57 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

ToiletDuk writes:

Quote:

Well, let's see. A government agency can now gather information through such means as tapping my telephone, monitoring my internet usage or look into my financial records as it pleases about anyone who that may find "suspicious" without warrant or indictment, They can enter into and look around my home without the same. Also, if they think I might be terrorist, I can be held indefinitely without charge or indictment. And they can also now inflict cruel and unusual punishment to extract any potential information whilst being held. And if I want to convey a message or my viewpoint to the president through peaceful protest, I have to do it in designated "Freedom Zones", where said president won't be bothered by seeing it. And National ID cards are in the works, no doubt leading to tracking of my movements to make sure I'm not up to something. Of course, these were designed to root out potential terrorists, and cops and federal agents are all such a sterling bunch of fellows that surely these expanded police powers won't be abused at some point....




You didn't answer my question. Why not re-read it then give it another shot.

But as for your above statements, let's look at them closely:

Quote:

A government agency can now gather information through such means as tapping my telephone, monitoring my internet usage or look into my financial records as it pleases about anyone who that may find "suspicious" without warrant or indictment,...




Incorrect. While it is true that some provisions of the Patriot Act have loosened warrant requirements, LEOs still cannot tap just anyone's phone or sift through just anyone's financial records at their whim.

Quote:

They can enter into and look around my home without the same.




Incorrect, if you are talking about "no-knock" warrants. These warrants existed before 9/11.

Quote:

Also, if they think I might be terrorist, I can be held indefinitely without charge or indictment.




Incorrect. Now you're just making things up as you go along.

Quote:

And they can also now inflict cruel and unusual punishment to extract any potential information whilst being held.




Incorrect again.

Quote:

And if I want to convey a message or my viewpoint to the president through peaceful protest, I have to do it in designated "Freedom Zones", where said president won't be bothered by seeing it.




Re-read my question. I want examples of freedoms lost after 9/11.

Quote:

And National ID cards are in the works, no doubt leading to tracking of my movements to make sure I'm not up to something.




And if they ever arrive, we can discuss them at that time.



Phred


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OfflineTao
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Registered: 09/19/03
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Re: When you ride alone, you ride with Bid Laden [Re: Phred]
    #4375252 - 07/06/05 12:07 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

So was there anything written inside the PATRIOT Act or was it just a blank piece of paper? If in fact there was something inside the legislation, what did the PATRIOT Act enable the executive branch to do?




Tao


--------------------
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InvisibleLe_Canard
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Registered: 05/17/03
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Re: When you ride alone, you ride with Bid Laden [Re: Phred]
    #4375284 - 07/06/05 12:23 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:


You didn't answer my question. Why not re-read it then give it another shot.






I believe I did. Meh, think what you want. I find the events and legislations of these past few years (particularly after 9/11) more than a little disturbing. Be that as it may, if you want to believe that your safety is more important than your liberty, well more power to you....


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OfflinePhred
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Re: When you ride alone, you ride with Bid Laden [Re: Tao]
    #4375336 - 07/06/05 12:48 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Tao writes:

Quote:

So was there anything written inside the PATRIOT Act or was it just a blank piece of paper? If in fact there was something inside the legislation, what did the PATRIOT Act enable the executive branch to do?




Clearly you know more about the Patriot Act than I do, so you (unlike ToiletDuk) should have no problem answering my question, citing the Act to support your assertions.

For what it's worth, there are sections of the Patriot Act I believe could be altered or abolished completely. But at least I realize that it hasn't taken any freedoms from Americans. Now, it can rationally be proposed that some sections of the Act have increased the ongoing process of government intrusion into the privacy of some American citizens. I've read several discussions on other boards addressing that proposition.

But I have asked the same question I asked above several times in this forum, and as of yet I haven't had anyone supply me an example of an action an American citizen could legally perform in America on September 10, 2001 which that same American could not legally perform after the Patriot Act was passed. Maybe you'll be the one to finally provide me that example. Go for it.

Phred


--------------------


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InvisibleLe_Canard
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Re: When you ride alone, you ride with Bid Laden [Re: Phred]
    #4375359 - 07/06/05 12:55 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Well, I thought I had made it pretty clear in the initial post. But obviously you see things a bit differently. And I can tell you're as pig-headed as I am, ( :wink: ) so we'd just go around and around ad infinitum without either one of us convincing the other one. A rather pointless waste of both our time, it seems to me. I do respect your opinions, but I must disagree with some of them. So let's just leave it at that... :cool:


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OfflinePhred
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Re: When you ride alone, you ride with Bid Laden [Re: Le_Canard]
    #4375431 - 07/06/05 01:16 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

It's more than just a difference of opinion, Duk, it's a factual issue. Most of the statements you made are objectively untrue. I could have said "bullshit" to each one, but I thought I'd use the less inflammatory "incorrect". No matter which word I use, the salient point is that your present opinion (on the matter under discussion) is what it is because you believe certain things to be true true which are not in fact true.

Look, I'm not making this up. You can check it out for yourself.



Phred


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OfflineGrav
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Re: When you ride alone, you ride with Bid Laden [Re: Phred]
    #4375441 - 07/06/05 01:19 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:



But I have asked the same question I asked above several times in this forum, and as of yet I haven't had anyone supply me an example of an action an American citizen could legally perform in America on September 10, 2001 which that same American could not legally perform after the Patriot Act was passed. Maybe you'll be the one to finally provide me that example. Go for it.

Phred





What about changes being made in government that(while having virtually no impact on an American citizen's life today) would make it easier to enable certain actions that would jeapordize freedoms tomorrow?


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InvisibleLe_Canard
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Re: When you ride alone, you ride with Bid Laden [Re: Phred]
    #4375452 - 07/06/05 01:22 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

The truth as you see it. Oh well. Here's the first Patriot Act. I find it's expansion of police powers to be more than a little unsettling. But you're fine with all that, well okay then.....


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: When you ride alone, you ride with Bid Laden [Re: Phred]
    #4375506 - 07/06/05 01:35 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Phred, I fail to see how an intrusion on one's privacy is not a sacrifice of one's freedom. I am no longer free to check out a library book knowing that the government can't find out about it without a warrant.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: When you ride alone, you ride with Bid Laden [Re: Grav]
    #4375523 - 07/06/05 01:38 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Grav writes:

Quote:

What about changes being made in government that(while having virtually no impact on an American citizen's life today) would make it easier to enable certain actions that would jeapordize freedoms tomorrow?




To which changes do you refer? Be specific, please.


Phred


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: When you ride alone, you ride with Bid Laden [Re: Phred]
    #4375528 - 07/06/05 01:39 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Interesting assertion. Please specify for us a few of the many freedoms Americans have given up since 9/11, willingly or otherwise. What -- specifically -- were you as an American citizen free to do in America on September 10, 2005 that you are not free to do today?




Quote:

Bullshit. The American society is no more "closed today than it was four years ago. Let's have a couple of specific examples supporting this outrageous assertion, please.




Quote:

Such as? Please name for us a couple of specific "terrible sacrifices" the American people have had to make by order of the US government since September 11, 2005.




Quote:

Once you have named a few of these sacrifices, please provide us specific proof that the Americans making these sacrifices were "more than happy" to make them.




read the PATRIOT act..and its proposed expansions..if you want the laundry list...and there have no doubt been other legislation..court cases..etc which have further eroded our freedoms.. and others still pending..such as HR-1528...that ppl are more than happy to give up their freedoms is shown by one poll after another showing strong public support for the PATRIOT act (graphic from gallup poll website) the "war on terrorism" ..and a conservtive SCOTUS...a USA today poll of high school students showed 1/3 favoured rolling back the first amendment and only 51% supporting unrestricted freedom of the press...meaning that a sizable minority favours a radical acquisition of power by the federal govt...totalitarianism is wildly popular in this country...

Quote:

"Grinding poverty"? Please supply us a specific percentage increase in the number of Americans in "grinding poverty" in America since 9/11. Then show us how these people newly dumped into "grinding poverty" went there "all too willingly".




ill admit that "grinding poverty" was prolly a bad choice of words on my part...however..poverty has increased and median incomes have declined at the hands of the far right nonetheless (even as the GDP has skyrocketed)...all of the statistics are available from epinet.org (read any of the PDFs from this page)...and mind you..the victims of such policies overwhelmingly support republicans who implemented them anyway...

Quote:

Quote:

...because they believe it to be in the best interests of america as a whole ..




What, you'd be happier if they did it out of greedy self-interest instead? Or because Jesus told them it was the right thing to do?




im glad you asked that question..because the answer is all of the above..at least if (like most voters) one considers the likes of jim dobson as being "jesus"...the reasoning is quite simple ..these scumbags see themselves as having a potential stake in the spoils of neocon imperialism..and/or the economic benefits of authoritarian domestic policies...and both of the above in turn open the door to the religious fundamentalists...


--------------------


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OfflinePhred
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Re: When you ride alone, you ride with Bid Laden [Re: Le_Canard]
    #4375551 - 07/06/05 01:50 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

ToiletDuk writes:

Quote:

The truth as you see it. Oh well.




No, TD, the truth as it is objectively written and objectively verifiable. I notice you posted a link to the patriot Act, so it's not as if you don't know how to find it. All I ask is that you point out to me where in that Act (or any other piece of legislation signed into law after September 11, 2001) it states that:

-- government agencies can tap the phone of whichever American they want, monitor internet use of whichever American they want or obtain the financial records of whichever American they want without a warrant

-- enter the home of whichever American they want without a warrant

-- hold Americans indefinitely without charge or indictment

-- inflict cruel and unusual punishment to Americans for the purpose of extracting any potential information

Just saying that all these things are true doesn't make them true. Whoever told you these things are true was mistaken. You've got the link to the Act now... you can verify for yourself that all of the above misconceptions you hold are in fact not true.

Quote:

But you're fine with all that, well okay then.....




What part of "For what it's worth, there are sections of the Patriot Act I believe could be altered or abolished completely." did I fail to make sufficiently clear?



Phred


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OfflineGrav
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Re: When you ride alone, you ride with Bid Laden [Re: Phred]
    #4375554 - 07/06/05 01:50 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Grav writes:

Quote:

What about changes being made in government that(while having virtually no impact on an American citizen's life today) would make it easier to enable certain actions that would jeapordize freedoms tomorrow?




To which changes do you refer? Be specific, please.


Phred




i am uneducated on the specifics of our laws, and i am not making any claims about current policy.

im just stating that it's naive to think that just because a negative impact can not be seen out in the open, doesn't mean it's execution can't be worked up to in more subtler ways.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: When you ride alone, you ride with Bid Laden [Re: Silversoul]
    #4375580 - 07/06/05 01:58 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Paradigm writes:

Quote:

Phred, I fail to see how an intrusion on one's privacy is not a sacrifice of one's freedom.




That's because you aren't distinguishing the essential difference between "freedom" and "privacy". When I challenged Annapurna1 to support her various incorrect assertions I was pretty precise about just what it was I wanted her to back up. She said nothing about privacy.

The fact of the matter is that four years ago you were free to check out library books. Today you remain free to check out library books. Despite Anna's usual skewed take on the world, there is no act you as an American citizen could legally carry out pre 9/11 that you can't legally carry out today.

I have already stated there are parts of the Act I personally feel need modification or even repeal. I remain unconvinced that the continuation of longstanding government erosion of the privacy of its citizens to the extent the Patriot Act took it was entirely necessary (though it is undeniably helpful) in preventing further terrorist acts against Americans.

But that's not the same thing as the allegations Anna made.



Phred


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OfflineProsgeopax
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Re: When you ride alone, you ride with Bid Laden [Re: Phred]
    #4375632 - 07/06/05 02:16 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Has Jose Padilla been charged with a crime yet or has he been released? Last I heard, he had been held for 3 years without charges being filed.

"No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation."
- 5th Amendment to U.S. Constitution

"In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense."
- 6th Amendment to U.S. Constitution

If one American can be held indefinitely without criminal charges just on the word of the President, then any American can be. This IS a loss of liberty.


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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